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Thread: Looking for opinions...

  1. #1
    Cranker classygranny's Avatar
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    Default Looking for opinions...

    We have a league rule under our Prizes section that in part reads: "special individual and team high series and games prized shall be awarded on a scratch and handicap basis."

    Our prize fund committee wants to eliminate individual/team awards and submit options that only include team position moneis and point monies. Would you consider this as an ok move? Or is this in violation with the league rule stated above?

    Also, if a prior year prize fund committee had presented both options and the league voted for the team monies only option, was that in violation? Does that set a precedence for future prize funds?

    Blast away...looking for any information anyone wants to share. Thanks!
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  2. #2

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    I don't see any problem with the team only prize fund, as long as it is voted on and passed by the league members. One could argue that paying for individual performances on a scratch and handicap basis is biased toward two specific groups of league bowlers: those with high averages (scratch) and those with lower averages who have taken steps to improve their games (handicap). Eliminating those awards leaves more money for everyone equally. Just my 2 cents.

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    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    The way I read the rule is that IF you pay out individual awards, it shall include both scratch and handicap awards.

    I like the individual awards...I think it awards people for having really good performances throughout the season. I've also started to really like head-to-head scoring formats. I never used to bowl in leagues that had head-to-head formats...now that I do I really like it and almost would rather not bowl in leagues with no head-to-head scoring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by classygranny View Post
    We have a league rule under our Prizes section that in part reads: "special individual and team high series and games prized shall be awarded on a scratch and handicap basis."
    Without the full league rule regarding prize lists etc. to see this part in full context. This opinion maybe off some but....

    Our prize fund committee wants to eliminate individual/team awards and submit options that only include team position moneis and point monies. Would you consider this as an ok move? Or is this in violation with the league rule stated above?
    IF your "league rules" state that there will be payouts for individual and team high series and game awards, Then the Prize committee I believe would be required to have them included in the submitted prize lists.

    If they wanted the option to submit prize lists that didn't include those awards, I believe they would have to first have to have the league rules changed, so that the rules would allow for the prize committee to give other options on payouts and to do that it would require approval by every team captain.

    USBC Rule 122 – Meetings
    League meetings are conducted under the following requirements:
    a. The secretary shall notify the members or team captains of all league meetings.
    b. To conduct business, a quorum must be in attendance. In youth leagues, the league supervisor or
    official must also be in attendance.
    c. Absentee and proxy votes are not acceptable. Only members present are eligible to vote.
    Rules shall be adopted at a meeting prior to the start of the league schedule by the board of directors,
    unless the league elects to have its rules adopted by the membership.

    After the league schedule begins, a change in the league rules and approved prize list can be made only with the written consent
    of every team captain or designated representative.


    USBC Rule 117 – Prizes
    117a. Prize List
    The prize committee shall submit one or more prize lists for consideration within five weeks after the
    start of the season. The prize list shall:
    1. Comply with any rules that have been adopted by the league.

    Also, if a prior year prize fund committee had presented both options and the league voted for the team monies only option, was that in violation? Does that set a precedence for future prize funds?
    Was it a violation? It would depend on what was in the League Rules at that time, But IMO I say it technically did.

    But since the membership (I assume) agreed to (or least didn't object to) having that option to vote on (and picked it), I don't think it was a problem at least not to the majority at that time.

    Did it set a precedence for future prize funds? I'd say since the league agreed to it at that time, then yes it did set a precedence and it should have been addressed when the current league rules were established at the league meeting. That way this concern wouldn't have come up.

    Blast away...looking for any information anyone wants to share. Thanks!
    Last edited by bowl1820; 09-14-2019 at 08:39 PM.

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    Cranker classygranny's Avatar
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    I was attempting to shorten the post, but if I get better answers; here's the entire Prizes section of the rules: (that probably hasn't been modified in over 10 years)

    PRIZES
    A prize list, drawn up by a committee appointed by the league president, must be submitted for approval by the league board of directors within 6 weeks after the start of the schedule – No later than October 11, 2019. (Refer to USBC Rule 117a.) Note: extended one week due to President’s absence.

    All league members must bowl at least 2/3 of the league’s scheduled games (68 games) to be eligible for individual league prizes or awards. (Refer to USBC Rule 117b, Item 2a).

    Special individual and team high series and game prizes shall be awarded on a scratch and handicap basis.

    A bowler may not qualify for more than one individual award, including high average. Scratch takes precedence over handicap; Series takes precedence over game; and if multiple awards, higher payout takes precedence. Duplicate awards for ties. Scores for individual handicap awards will be figured using the entering average for 9 games, and then on current average.
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    Quote Originally Posted by classygranny View Post
    I was attempting to shorten the post, but if I get better answers; here's the entire Prizes section of the rules: (that probably hasn't been modified in over 10 years)

    PRIZES
    A prize list, drawn up by a committee appointed by the league president, must be submitted for approval by the league board of directors within 6 weeks after the start of the schedule – No later than October 11, 2019. (Refer to USBC Rule 117a.) Note: extended one week due to President’s absence.

    All league members must bowl at least 2/3 of the league’s scheduled games (68 games) to be eligible for individual league prizes or awards. (Refer to USBC Rule 117b, Item 2a).

    Special individual and team high series and game prizes shall be awarded on a scratch and handicap basis.

    A bowler may not qualify for more than one individual award, including high average. Scratch takes precedence over handicap; Series takes precedence over game; and if multiple awards, higher payout takes precedence. Duplicate awards for ties. Scores for individual handicap awards will be figured using the entering average for 9 games, and then on current average.
    Okay that's pretty much standard, That's straight from the USBC sample league rules.

    Which you can see here (see rule 6):
    http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn....LOH7-20-11.pdf

    About this section now: "Special individual and team high series and game prizes shall be awarded on a scratch and handicap basis."

    It doesn't come right out and say those "have to be" included as prizes on the prize list. IMO as the rules are written they would allow the prize committee to submit those other options (which I've seen before Point money etc.).

    To me that's saying "If" (I know it doesn't say IF) you have those payouts, then you do it this way.

    For it to bar those options it would have to say something like: "The prize list "shall/will include" payouts for Team Position and Special individual and team high series and game prizes which shall be awarded on a scratch and handicap basis." something along those lines.
    Last edited by bowl1820; 09-14-2019 at 09:58 PM.

    Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798

    "Adjust too soon and maybe ruin one frame, adjust too late and ruin a game."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by classygranny View Post
    I was attempting to shorten the post, but if I get better answers; here's the entire Prizes section of the rules: (that probably hasn't been modified in over 10 years)

    PRIZES
    A prize list, drawn up by a committee appointed by the league president, must be submitted for approval by the league board of directors within 6 weeks after the start of the schedule – No later than October 11, 2019. (Refer to USBC Rule 117a.) Note: extended one week due to President’s absence.

    All league members must bowl at least 2/3 of the league’s scheduled games (68 games) to be eligible for individual league prizes or awards. (Refer to USBC Rule 117b, Item 2a).

    Special individual and team high series and game prizes shall be awarded on a scratch and handicap basis.

    A bowler may not qualify for more than one individual award, including high average. Scratch takes precedence over handicap; Series takes precedence over game; and if multiple awards, higher payout takes precedence. Duplicate awards for ties. Scores for individual handicap awards will be figured using the entering average for 9 games, and then on current average.
    It seems to me that to eliminate high games and series prizes should require an amendment of the league rules. However since the rule doesn’t specify monetary prizes the committee could stay within the letter of the rule by printing certificates of achievement for individual and team high games while leaving 99% of the prize fund for awards based on standings and points. Most bowlers could not care less about a certificate
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    I don't see any problem with the team only prize fund, as long as it is voted on and passed by the league members.
    Agreed!

    One could argue that paying for individual performances on a scratch and handicap basis is biased toward two specific groups of league bowlers: those with high averages (scratch) and those with lower averages who have taken steps to improve their games (handicap).
    Bias toward those groups? Well yes, that's kind of the point. It's supposed to be incentive to improve and be a higher average bowler.

    Eliminating those awards leaves more money for everyone equally. Just my 2 cents.
    Leave more money for everyone? Using a prize list (for a 32 team league) here those team/ind. awards total $320, that means everyone would get a whopping $2.50 extra!

    Personally I'd rather roll the dice on getting the whole nut on a team/ind. award, than just getting the empty shell.
    Last edited by bowl1820; 09-14-2019 at 10:55 PM.

    Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798

    "Adjust too soon and maybe ruin one frame, adjust too late and ruin a game."

  9. #9

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    All the money should go to a pizza party and divided equally among the entire league with trophies for everyone, just like grade school sports! Because it’s all just about having fun!!!!🤪

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