Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 30

Thread: ball surface vs core

  1. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by boatman37 View Post
    I just tell my PSO what I want the ball to do and he drills it.
    And herein lies the problem. PSO's are notorious for selling bowlers the balls that are in THEIR best interest to sell; over-inventoried items, promotional purchases, etc. and MAKING the ball do what you want it to do, rather than selling a ball that is DESIGNED to to what you want it to do. The result is the situation that you are in: having an arsenal of bowling balls that you cannot possibly understand without simply taking the PSO's word that the balls will do what he tells you they will do.

    As for over-complicating the issue with too much knowledge, by using one or two layouts, you don't have to remember anything except the published information about the ball.

  2. #12
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Des Moines, IA
    Posts
    6,652
    Chats: 204

    Default

    I'm not sure if I can relate to Boatman or not. It seems like a lefty with an all Pearl arsenal shouldn't have "too much" of a problem like what he's been having. BUT...before Rob goes crazy...

    ...I realize that the coverstock doesn't mean as much as what we do to it (i.e. surfacing).

    And that leads to the point I'd like to make...which is that it might be a good idea to invest in a good ball spinner and some surfacing supplies.

    I also throw the ball in the upper 15mph to low 17mph range. I have significantly less of a rev rate than you do...which might be why the burnout affects me a little less. But, I also tend to use balls in the 2.48 to 2.52 RG range.

    Now, I WILL say...I've been having trouble lately with lower RG balls...especially if there's a matte surface on them. My Thug Life (2.493/1000 matte) was lackluster. My Grudge Hybrid (2.49/4000 matte) had difficulties on drier THS shots. And my recent addition of the Optimus Solid (2.48/2000 matte) was practically useless.

    HOWEVER...my Reaxx Pearl (2.492/4000 matte) was the 2nd best ball I've ever thrown. I've had tremendous success with the Fortera Exile (2.512/500 (polished)). And, I've had early success with the Force Pearl (2.53/800 (polished)). The Aura Mystic I was using (until it cracked recently was a 2.481 RG but I surfaced it to 2000 and then finished it with Royal Compound.

    My point is, while I agree with Rob...that many bowlers will see a ball like the Motiv Forge Flare with a 2.47 RG, 0.055 diff, solid cover, sanded to 2000 matte...and they'll think..."yup...thats the ball for me!" Then they'll try to throw it and the ball won't give them the angle they thought and will instead just hit weak....I ALSO think you can utilize a ball with a pearl/hybrid cover, a 2.48-2.51 RG, and a 0.046-0.056 diff...IF...IF you are willing to take the time to maintain the surface with surfacing compounds and/or polishes using a ball spinner ever 4-12 games. Absent consistent surfacing, I guess going with high RG stuff is the only option.

    Given my recent struggles, I'm definitely going to be shying away from low RG/solids in the future. I just am not seeing THSs out there where those balls make sense for the average bowler. It seems like the bowling ball companies are almost doing a disservice to bowlers propping up stuff that doesn't work for 80% of bowlers...but, whatever. I think my next arsenal will go from a 2.48/2.49/2.52 type of design to more of a 2.49/2.54/2.50 type of design. I haven't had great luck with high RG balls (Slingshot/Bullet Train/300A/Yeah Baby Sinful)...but much of it was probably failing to learn 'how' to use them.

    You're not alone though. My team on Tuesday...we were all leaving 10-pins, hitting weak, etc... Our anchor finally gave up and started throwing his spare ball in frustration. And NONE of them had polished stuff or high RG stuff to throw. I won high game and card game in Game 3 with a 203 because my Exile (2.512/R. Compound/polished)...despite being overdue for surfacing...still had enough polish on it to carry 5 strikes on 8 shots. Might have been 8 out of 8 if I executed better. Pushed 2 to the right and pulled one.
    In Bag: (: .) DV8 Grudge Hybrid; (: .) Storm Optimus Solid; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Fortera Exile; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 182; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.54mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (689); Clean Games: 170

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  3. #13
    High Roller
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    2,036
    Chats: 0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    I'm not sure if I can relate to Boatman or not. It seems like a lefty with an all Pearl arsenal shouldn't have "too much" of a problem like what he's been having. BUT...before Rob goes crazy...

    ...I realize that the coverstock doesn't mean as much as what we do to it (i.e. surfacing).

    And that leads to the point I'd like to make...which is that it might be a good idea to invest in a good ball spinner and some surfacing supplies.

    I also throw the ball in the upper 15mph to low 17mph range. I have significantly less of a rev rate than you do...which might be why the burnout affects me a little less. But, I also tend to use balls in the 2.48 to 2.52 RG range.

    Now, I WILL say...I've been having trouble lately with lower RG balls...especially if there's a matte surface on them. My Thug Life (2.493/1000 matte) was lackluster. My Grudge Hybrid (2.49/4000 matte) had difficulties on drier THS shots. And my recent addition of the Optimus Solid (2.48/2000 matte) was practically useless.

    HOWEVER...my Reaxx Pearl (2.492/4000 matte) was the 2nd best ball I've ever thrown. I've had tremendous success with the Fortera Exile (2.512/500 (polished)). And, I've had early success with the Force Pearl (2.53/800 (polished)). The Aura Mystic I was using (until it cracked recently was a 2.481 RG but I surfaced it to 2000 and then finished it with Royal Compound.

    My point is, while I agree with Rob...that many bowlers will see a ball like the Motiv Forge Flare with a 2.47 RG, 0.055 diff, solid cover, sanded to 2000 matte...and they'll think..."yup...thats the ball for me!" Then they'll try to throw it and the ball won't give them the angle they thought and will instead just hit weak....I ALSO think you can utilize a ball with a pearl/hybrid cover, a 2.48-2.51 RG, and a 0.046-0.056 diff...IF...IF you are willing to take the time to maintain the surface with surfacing compounds and/or polishes using a ball spinner ever 4-12 games. Absent consistent surfacing, I guess going with high RG stuff is the only option.

    Given my recent struggles, I'm definitely going to be shying away from low RG/solids in the future. I just am not seeing THSs out there where those balls make sense for the average bowler. It seems like the bowling ball companies are almost doing a disservice to bowlers propping up stuff that doesn't work for 80% of bowlers...but, whatever. I think my next arsenal will go from a 2.48/2.49/2.52 type of design to more of a 2.49/2.54/2.50 type of design. I haven't had great luck with high RG balls (Slingshot/Bullet Train/300A/Yeah Baby Sinful)...but much of it was probably failing to learn 'how' to use them.

    You're not alone though. My team on Tuesday...we were all leaving 10-pins, hitting weak, etc... Our anchor finally gave up and started throwing his spare ball in frustration. And NONE of them had polished stuff or high RG stuff to throw. I won high game and card game in Game 3 with a 203 because my Exile (2.512/R. Compound/polished)...despite being overdue for surfacing...still had enough polish on it to carry 5 strikes on 8 shots. Might have been 8 out of 8 if I executed better. Pushed 2 to the right and pulled one.
    I should add that I do have a spinner and a collection of CTD pads and freshen mine up every 10 or so games. But have tried various surfaces and tend to migrate towards the 3000 grit most of the time. I do have a couple of 'outliers' just in case (Conspiracy, Kingpin and BWG). The rest are all at 3000. I know that probably isn't the best way to build an arsenal but I tend to see more times when the lanes are dry than wet so less surface works better. I have tried polish and so far haven't had success with it but did throw my BWG on the spinner last night and hit it with a 1000 then Motiv 5000 polish with a pretty quick pass with the polish so will try that when the lanes get real dry.

    I should also add that I make adjustments with speed as often as I do with moves. I throw anywhere from 15 to 17 at the pins depending on what the ball is doing.
    All that said, I'm off to the best start I have probably ever had in terms of average but we are only 3 weeks in. But in scenarios like last week when we all struggled (I had a 549) I'm trying to figure out what to do then. In our 'normal' conditions I'm doing pretty well except my spares, which I plan to work on this week.
    The other night I was high man on my team with a 607. Lanes weren't great but not too bad. We had a 215 average guy on our team that rolled a 549. He just couldn't get anything to work for him. I had to hunt to to find what would work for me. In our normal conditions I know I can start with the Uppercut at the 2nd arrow and hit the pocket. The other night that wasn't working so I felt good that I could find something that worked and adjust to it.
    Arsenal "15# Brunswick Uppercut" "15# Brunswick Igniter" "15# Radical Squatch Pearl" "15# Radical Conspiracy" "15# Brunswick Kingpin" "15# Hammer Black Widow Gold" "15# Brunswick Rhino Black Pearl" "15# Brunswick T-Zone"
    Rev Rate about 325 @ about 16 MPH at the pins* High Game: 279 - High Series: 725
    Oh, and LEFTY!!!
    I am a proud member of bowlingboards.com bowling forums

  4. #14

    Default

    There are some underlying issues here that really need to be addressed. Foremost is the misplaced belief that is left over from the eighties that you need to find friction to help your ball to hook. Today you need to find oil to hold off the hook. From that left over belief comes the pre-occupation with coverstock materials and lots of surface, not to mention early rolling cores to help your ball to hook. Let me say that I firmly believe that the type of cover material; solid, pearl, or hybrid, means absolutely nothing! The existence of these different types of cover material is simply a marketing ploy by the ball companies to get you to buy three different "versions" of the same ball when, in reality, all you have to do is to modify the surface. Combine the ball companies marketing ploy with the PSO's claims that they can make any ball do anything with the right layout, and you have modern bowlers who are being screwed over by others lust for the all-mighty dollar!

    It is often said that league bowlers see the lanes from side to side, while pro bowlers see the lanes from front to back. This means that simply throwing a highly surfaced overly aggressive bowling ball into the early friction on the outside part of the lane will do nothing but show you the all-precious hook that you perceive that you need to see without giving you the power that the hook should show you if it happens down the lane where it can do you some good.

    I'm really happy to see that Aslan has decided to join this conversation as I have seen him bowl and know that you, Boatman, and Aslan have a whole lot in common. You are both looking for hook that your current releases won't let you have. In Aslan's case, I know that he would rather focus his attention on bowling ball strategies rather than making uncomfortable physical changes to his game. I hope that this thread will encourage him to change that. You can both learn to hook the ball without throwing charcoal briquets that roll out at forty feet. Rant over! LOL

    Keep the questions coming.

  5. #15
    High Roller
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    2,036
    Chats: 0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    There are some underlying issues here that really need to be addressed. Foremost is the misplaced belief that is left over from the eighties that you need to find friction to help your ball to hook. Today you need to find oil to hold off the hook. From that left over belief comes the pre-occupation with coverstock materials and lots of surface, not to mention early rolling cores to help your ball to hook. Let me say that I firmly believe that the type of cover material; solid, pearl, or hybrid, means absolutely nothing! The existence of these different types of cover material is simply a marketing ploy by the ball companies to get you to buy three different "versions" of the same ball when, in reality, all you have to do is to modify the surface. Combine the ball companies marketing ploy with the PSO's claims that they can make any ball do anything with the right layout, and you have modern bowlers who are being screwed over by others lust for the all-mighty dollar!

    It is often said that league bowlers see the lanes from side to side, while pro bowlers see the lanes from front to back. This means that simply throwing a highly surfaced overly aggressive bowling ball into the early friction on the outside part of the lane will do nothing but show you the all-precious hook that you perceive that you need to see without giving you the power that the hook should show you if it happens down the lane where it can do you some good.

    I'm really happy to see that Aslan has decided to join this conversation as I have seen him bowl and know that you, Boatman, and Aslan have a whole lot in common. You are both looking for hook that your current releases won't let you have. In Aslan's case, I know that he would rather focus his attention on bowling ball strategies rather than making uncomfortable physical changes to his game. I hope that this thread will encourage him to change that. You can both learn to hook the ball without throwing charcoal briquets that roll out at forty feet. Rant over! LOL

    Keep the questions coming.
    Actually Rob I think I have changed my game up. In the past I was trying to make my ball hook which led to inconsistency. For about the last 8-12 months I went back to a more free flowing release that just feels natural rather than trying to really crank the ball to get more rotation. Now I'm pretty much just staying behind the ball and it feels natural. I'm also playing in near the 2nd arrow more now instead of way outside although this past week that wouldn't work form me.

    I have also been watching where my ball exits the back of the lane. When I start seeing it exit closer to the 8 on a good hit then I know I need to change something. I usually try 2 or 3 shots to confirm but that is the main thing I watch besides where the ball enters the pocket. I try to watch to see what the 7 pin does but too much going on for that. Still trying to train my eyes to see that too.
    Arsenal "15# Brunswick Uppercut" "15# Brunswick Igniter" "15# Radical Squatch Pearl" "15# Radical Conspiracy" "15# Brunswick Kingpin" "15# Hammer Black Widow Gold" "15# Brunswick Rhino Black Pearl" "15# Brunswick T-Zone"
    Rev Rate about 325 @ about 16 MPH at the pins* High Game: 279 - High Series: 725
    Oh, and LEFTY!!!
    I am a proud member of bowlingboards.com bowling forums

  6. #16

    Default

    Good job!

  7. #17
    High Roller
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    2,036
    Chats: 0

    Default

    Here is a more recent video of me. I have since got my balance a little better and am posting most of my shots now but this is what my release and ball motion looks like. And I think taking the summer off this year helped. I was non-stop with no time to 'reflect' or whatever. Now when we started back it seems like some of my bad habits are gone. Who knows...lol. It's only been 3 weeks so still early but I feel so much better at the line now.

    Arsenal "15# Brunswick Uppercut" "15# Brunswick Igniter" "15# Radical Squatch Pearl" "15# Radical Conspiracy" "15# Brunswick Kingpin" "15# Hammer Black Widow Gold" "15# Brunswick Rhino Black Pearl" "15# Brunswick T-Zone"
    Rev Rate about 325 @ about 16 MPH at the pins* High Game: 279 - High Series: 725
    Oh, and LEFTY!!!
    I am a proud member of bowlingboards.com bowling forums

  8. #18

    Default

    It's really hard to see your video... it's very small. What I can see is your balance problem, which probably explains your lack of accuracy. It looks like you are using a four step approach, but not moving the ball until your second step. With the pause after the first step, this is resulting in a 3 1/2 step approach with very late timing that's causing you to fall off of the shot.

  9. #19
    High Roller
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    2,036
    Chats: 0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    It's really hard to see your video... it's very small. What I can see is your balance problem, which probably explains your lack of accuracy. It looks like you are using a four step approach, but not moving the ball until your second step. With the pause after the first step, this is resulting in a 3 1/2 step approach with very late timing that's causing you to fall off of the shot.
    I think you are exactly right. I have started moving my ball as soon as my foot moves and that has helped. I also still take the little 'stutter step' or pause and my timing feels good now but I'm sure there is still room for improvement.

    Here is a direct link to the video so you should be able to see it a little clearer. This was back around February or so of this year

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTt-YlmA0vc
    Arsenal "15# Brunswick Uppercut" "15# Brunswick Igniter" "15# Radical Squatch Pearl" "15# Radical Conspiracy" "15# Brunswick Kingpin" "15# Hammer Black Widow Gold" "15# Brunswick Rhino Black Pearl" "15# Brunswick T-Zone"
    Rev Rate about 325 @ about 16 MPH at the pins* High Game: 279 - High Series: 725
    Oh, and LEFTY!!!
    I am a proud member of bowlingboards.com bowling forums

  10. #20
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Des Moines, IA
    Posts
    6,652
    Chats: 204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    There are some underlying issues here that really need to be addressed. Foremost is the misplaced belief that is left over from the eighties that you need to find friction to help your ball to hook. Today you need to find oil to hold off the hook. From that left over belief comes the pre-occupation with coverstock materials and lots of surface, not to mention early rolling cores to help your ball to hook. Let me say that I firmly believe that the type of cover material; solid, pearl, or hybrid, means absolutely nothing! The existence of these different types of cover material is simply a marketing ploy by the ball companies to get you to buy three different "versions" of the same ball when, in reality, all you have to do is to modify the surface. Combine the ball companies marketing ploy with the PSO's claims that they can make any ball do anything with the right layout, and you have modern bowlers who are being screwed over by others lust for the all-mighty dollar!

    It is often said that league bowlers see the lanes from side to side, while pro bowlers see the lanes from front to back. This means that simply throwing a highly surfaced overly aggressive bowling ball into the early friction on the outside part of the lane will do nothing but show you the all-precious hook that you perceive that you need to see without giving you the power that the hook should show you if it happens down the lane where it can do you some good.

    I'm really happy to see that Aslan has decided to join this conversation as I have seen him bowl and know that you, Boatman, and Aslan have a whole lot in common. You are both looking for hook that your current releases won't let you have. In Aslan's case, I know that he would rather focus his attention on bowling ball strategies rather than making uncomfortable physical changes to his game. I hope that this thread will encourage him to change that. You can both learn to hook the ball without throwing charcoal briquets that roll out at forty feet. Rant over! LOL

    Keep the questions coming.
    I actually agree with almost all of this.

    1. I agree that most bowlers struggle not because they kind find friction...but because their ball loses energy due to friction.

    2. While I DO believe there are chemical differences in the cover stocks of balls...it's not just a marketing tool...there have been enough studies done to show that surfacing far outweighs cover stock thus making it a rather minor factor (compared to the marketing).

    3. While I agree with most everything the late, great Mo Pinel preaches...I agree with Rob that much of the drill layout stuff is over-rated...especially for league level bowlers. At the pro level, it's a different story.

    4. I agree with Rob's assessment that most bowlers get ultra-surfaced, powerful bowling balls and then get disappointed when they throw them up the dry part of the lane and they don't hook.

    5. I also agree with Rob's assessment that in order to adopt an inside game I would have to drastically change my game.

    And, #5 is where Rob and I slightly deviate in approaches. To adopt that style would require one or both of these things to change:

    A) Increased rev rate.

    B) Decreased speed.

    Thus, I would become a rev dominant bowler and be able to play inside 15 and life would be rainbows and lollipops. The downside to this is that developing an increased rev rate is not an easy thing. And simply reducing speed would take the one slight physical advantage I have and make my entire a physical game non-existent. So, I can choose to change my game to play inside or use a better understanding of bowling balls and play the track. I, so far, have chose option B. "So far".
    In Bag: (: .) DV8 Grudge Hybrid; (: .) Storm Optimus Solid; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Fortera Exile; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 182; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.54mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (689); Clean Games: 170

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •