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Thread: ball surface vs core

  1. #21
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    Yeah I can move as far as about the 13 board but if I try going inside any further my ball won't hook at all. I have to slow my speed so far that it rolls out no matter which ball I use, thus defeating the purpose. I'm further ahead balling down and staying out where my ball will hook, which is what I ran into last week. Problem was I didn't have a ball that would work in that situation. I have tried all of my balls inside the 15 and they either won't read the friction and go straight or roll out and go straight...lol. I'm talking taking 3-4 MPH off my speed to get it to hook and from 16 MPH that is a bunch and presents it's own issues (timing). I could probably grab my spare ball and throw it straight but I get better results staying further outside with less surface.
    Arsenal "15# Brunswick Uppercut" "15# Brunswick Igniter" "15# Radical Squatch Pearl" "15# Radical Conspiracy" "15# Brunswick Kingpin" "15# Hammer Black Widow Gold" "15# Brunswick Rhino Black Pearl" "15# Brunswick T-Zone"
    Rev Rate about 325 @ about 16 MPH at the pins* High Game: 279 - High Series: 725
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  2. #22
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    And, #5 is where Rob and I slightly deviate in approaches.
    To expand on this further....because I've been thinking about it some more...

    Let me preface this by saying, (because not everyone knows the past history)

    1. I've gotten 1 on 1 instruction from Rob in the past.
    2. I greatly respect his opinion on many bowling-related and non-bowling related matters.
    3. I regularly use his advice and teachings in my current game.
    4. I would say we certainly agree on more than we disagree.

    However...concerning my quoted difference...it 'seems' to me...and I MAY BE WRONG...that Rob is trying to put all bowlers...or almost all bowlers...into a box that really should be reserved for older bowlers and bowlers that are speed-challenged. Let me explain...because thats not 'a shot'...far from it.

    See, I met Rob before his more recent health failings. Gods be good, he recovered to the point that he can still bowl and at a relatively high level...although he would be the first to admit not at the level he could before his ailments. However, his ailments gave him a blessing in disguise (in my eyes)...a way to see bowling with a unique perspective and the opportunity to help other bowlers who face similar challenges. And there are MANY bowlers that are being afflicted with ailments or just old age...and are losing the speed they once had...and becoming "rev dominant'...not because they are developing a 425 RPM release....but because they can no longer throw 17-19mph.

    This change in Rob's approach allowed him to look at his approach to the lanes differently and look at his arsenal differently. He MUST use higher RG equipment. He MUST utilize the oil and stay away from the dry. His adaptions have allowed him to regain a level of bowling that many bowlers lose forever when they suffer injuries (or even just get older)...and he's the perfect resource for those type of bowlers on how to adapt their game to restore their game to close to what it was before.

    I wish every week that my teammate would seek out Rob and take Rob's advice. My teammate used to be a 200+ average bowler but suffered a hip injury and now he can't throw heavier equipment and can't hit the speeds he used to. He's always been a cranker style...but now he's down in the 10-12mph range. He usually spends the whole evening in misery as he goes from a strong ball that hooks too much to a plastic ball that hits the pocket and deflects. I've tried to help him understand the need for a higher RG and his only response was, "what is RG?" I've given him advice, I've given him Rob's advice via proxy...but he's that typical bowler that doesn't take advice. He's been bowling too long and too well to listen.

    Like Mark Baker told me once. There's 3 types of bowlers and only one type is generally going to seek out coaching.

    1. Those who are terrible bowlers, but too terrible to care.
    2. Bowlers that are very good and therefore think they know too much to get anything out of coaching.
    3. Those bowlers in that 160-180 range that are just good enough to want to get better but not so good that they are beyond listening. It's #3 that are generally the ones that seek out coaching.

    So, back to my original premise/issue/question...all bowlers in a box.

    See, speed dominant bowlers...are going to struggle if you try to move them inside. It's just a fact. It's pure physics. It can't be altered by opinion. 240 RPMs at 15.5-17.5 mph is not enough to make a ball turn when that ball spends the majority of the travel distance in the oil. There are little things you can do to help make that happen...lower RG equipment...sanded equipment, etc... But then what's the difference between higher RG/polished equipment in the dry versus sanded/lower RG equipment in the oil? It's the same physical dynamic at play...just in different ways. It's preference at that point.

    So why would one "prefer" the track with polished equipment over dull equipment in the oil?

    Well, 3 reasons. See, there is a method to my madness and none of these reasons are "to annoy Rob".

    1. As Parker Bohn once told me, when I asked him what the biggest difference was between the national tour and PBA50 tour was...it's speed. The longer you can hang onto speed...the better. To give up speed...just for the sake of playing inside...is like hitting yourself in the knee with a hammer so you can play with knee problems when you previously didn't have knee problems. Never give up speed until God makes you.

    2. Rob and I generally agree....generally...that you want to move left...not right. Well, the further right you START...the more options you have as the evening progresses. The further LEFT you start...the LESS options you have as the evening progresses. Ideally I'd love to start out on 10 and never move left of 11 and throw a 900 series. But, odds are I'm gonna have to move left as the night progresses...and some nights have moved as far left as 19. Last night I finished standing at 29-30 and throwing at 15-16 at the arrows. Not exactly me "playing the track"!

    3. Most of the people around me, throwing 300-games...are throwing up the track. If Rob's theories were 100% bulletproof...nobody throwing right of 12 would ever accomplish such a feat. Their bowling balls wouldn't have the carry. So, there "must" be a way to retain energy in the dry.

    The important things aren't what Rob and I differ on...but what we agree on. And the important thing for both Boatman and myself...is to try and figure out...how to fix the current dilemma we are facing. I don't think the solution is lowering our ball speed to 12mph, increasing our rev rate 100 rpms, moving inside center arrow, and throwing 2.56-2.58 RG equipment. But, I'll be brutally honest...I'm starting the year with a 37% strike rate...and I'd feel a LOT better about giving advice if that number was in the 43-50% range

    I WILL say...if I can't figure things out and finally am forced to move inside and take Rob's advice...it will be more than just a move inside. It will be an adoption of the 2-handed style. If I can't bowl the way I was taught all my life and am forced to play some 'new game' of throwing a ball in a pool of oil to an 8-board breakpoint...then I might as well go all the way and abandon 'bowling' completely and take up whatever "2-handed bowling" is.
    Last edited by Aslan; 09-17-2021 at 10:51 AM.
    In Bag: (: .) DV8 Grudge Hybrid; (: .) Storm Optimus Solid; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Fortera Exile; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 182; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.54mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (689); Clean Games: 170

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  3. #23
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    seems what you posted is a very good synopsis of what I see when I try to play in the oil. Only way I can is if I slow down so much that I'm uncomfortable.
    Oh, just checked my stats for the year and I'm at 53.9% strikes (55/102) after 9 games and I'm definitely not comfortable giving advice...lol
    Arsenal "15# Brunswick Uppercut" "15# Brunswick Igniter" "15# Radical Squatch Pearl" "15# Radical Conspiracy" "15# Brunswick Kingpin" "15# Hammer Black Widow Gold" "15# Brunswick Rhino Black Pearl" "15# Brunswick T-Zone"
    Rev Rate about 325 @ about 16 MPH at the pins* High Game: 279 - High Series: 725
    Oh, and LEFTY!!!
    I am a proud member of bowlingboards.com bowling forums

  4. #24

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    Note to Aslan:

    Several years ago I wrote an article for BTM entitled "The Spaces Between." It is still available to members on the BTM website. It talks about setting up an arsenal based on the individual Speed/Rev balance of the bowlers. My views on this subject have not changed. I was rev dominant when I wrote the article, and I am still rev dominant. That is why I use balls that are in the high RG range. The reason that I recommended higher RG balls for Boatman, is because he said his has a lower axis tilt which means that his balls will tend to roll earlier than someone with a more axis tilt. With your high ball speed and lower rev rate, I would never recommend balls with a higher RG, but I would recommend using less surface to take advantage of the dry past the pattern rather than trying to get something that will hook in the oil..

    I have never, and I will never try to use a one-size-fits-all approach to any bowling-related subject: arsenal selection, lane adjustments, or physical game. I always try to help the individual who is asking for help.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Note to Aslan:

    The reason that I recommended higher RG balls for Boatman, is because he said his has a lower axis tilt which means that his balls will tend to roll earlier than someone with a more axis tilt. With your high ball speed and lower rev rate, I would never recommend balls with a higher RG, but I would recommend using less surface to take advantage of the dry past the pattern rather than trying to get something that will hook in the oil.
    I'm glad what you are saying is aligning with my thoughts so I know I'm on the right track..lol. When I throw my Rhino Pearl it goes almost as straight as my plastic ball, even with a 1000 grit (yes I have tried it). That's why I mentioned earlier that I'm worried about buying something like a Radical Counter Attack. But when I throw the Kingpin or even the Conspiracy I can actually see it roll out and deflect. I have also promised myself I will not buy another ball until I get my specs all checked so I know where I am.
    Arsenal "15# Brunswick Uppercut" "15# Brunswick Igniter" "15# Radical Squatch Pearl" "15# Radical Conspiracy" "15# Brunswick Kingpin" "15# Hammer Black Widow Gold" "15# Brunswick Rhino Black Pearl" "15# Brunswick T-Zone"
    Rev Rate about 325 @ about 16 MPH at the pins* High Game: 279 - High Series: 725
    Oh, and LEFTY!!!
    I am a proud member of bowlingboards.com bowling forums

  6. #26
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Note to Aslan:

    I have never, and I will never try to use a one-size-fits-all approach to any bowling-related subject: arsenal selection, lane adjustments, or physical game. I always try to help the individual who is asking for help.
    Again, I didn't mean for that 2nd post to sound like a "shot"...it wasn't meant that way. I've just never heard you recommend anything but moving left into what I call a 3rd/4th arrow game where ball speeds need to be lower and angles greater and the bowler really needs to be a more rev dominant bowler. I "understand" the concept that you are preaching...and am experiencing a LOT of what Boatman is struggling with myself with THSs seeming to shrink in width or volume or maybe balls chewing them up more than in the past...thus balls are "burning up" and we're losing carry. Most bowlers don't understand the concept and they stay out in that track, where they are comfortable, and try more aggressive equipment, which makes things worse. So, I 'get' it.

    And I DO need to work on my physical game. I start at the second set of dots to intentionally keep my speed at 15.5-17.5. If I can develop a consistent +100 RPMs...I have room to move back in the approach and could add another 2 mph to my game. I just can't do that NOW...when I have a sub-250 RPM rev rate.

    My physical game seems to be hindered by my weight and the effect it has on my slide knee. In order to get my hand in a good position, I need to get a better knee bend. But, when I get a decent bend in my knee...I will often get a sharp pain in my knee and about collapse. This was a problem when my weight was at 215-225...and is certainly a problem at 230-240. Without that knee band and hand position, I'm releasing the ball with my hand more on top of the ball than beneath it and, as you know, it's just nearly impossible to get any RPMs that way.

    I have to decide if I'm gonna step uo an lose the weight and see if I can improve the RPMs on my own...OR if I need to accept that I'm gonna stay heavy and seek out coaching to see how I can generate more revs without more knee bend.
    In Bag: (: .) DV8 Grudge Hybrid; (: .) Storm Optimus Solid; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Fortera Exile; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 182; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.54mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (689); Clean Games: 170

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  7. #27
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Question What is my axis tilt and...

    ..how does it compare to Boatman's??

    I put such little weight into layout that I don't even know my axis tilt. Pics below (assuming I can remember how to add photos). Info below.


    Storm Optimus Solid, symmetric core, solid cover, 2.48 RG, 0.048 diff., 216.3 PerfectScale Score, 1000/1500/2000 surface.


    Lane Masters Yeah Baby Sinful, symmetric core, solid cover, 2.62 RG, 0.050 diff., n/a PerfectScale Score, 500/800/1000 surface.


    900 Global Special Ops, asymmetric core, hybrid cover, 2.52 RG, 0.044 diff., 182.3 PerfectScale Score, Step 2/Step3/resin polish


    Pyramid Force, asymmetric core, pearl cover, 2.53 RG, 0.051 diff., 234.9 PerfectScale Score, 800/Step 2/resin polish

    As you can see, my pinn/RG placement seems to be along the right side of my hand placement versus Boatman's which is more to the left side. I'm "assuming" that is because he's a Lefty? I also notice that his RG is located much closer to his finger holes than mine is. Mine is only close to the finger holes on the YBS. On the Optimus and Force it is noticeably pushed off to the right and on the Special Ops it is closer to the thumb hole.

    Any guys out there who understand drilling layouts that can compare Boatman's and mine (even though you're comparing a lefty to a righty)?
    Last edited by Aslan; 09-18-2021 at 09:23 AM.
    In Bag: (: .) DV8 Grudge Hybrid; (: .) Storm Optimus Solid; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Fortera Exile; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 182; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.54mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (689); Clean Games: 170

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  8. #28

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    Aslan:

    Without knowing your relative PAP's, there is no way to compare the layouts between your balls and Boatmans. While having seen you bowl, and Boatman's video, my guess is that your PAP's are totally different. Just looking at the position of the markings on two different bowlers bowling balls is irrelevant, and it is the most common mistake that bowlers make. A layout that works for one bowler may have just the opposite effect for another bowler with a different PAP. Ask your PSO to find your PAP for you if you are really interested in learning about layouts.

    Axis tilt and Axis rotation are two different things. Axis tilt is how the ball rotates around the vertical axis. Imagine a dowel going from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock on your bowling ball. If that dowel stays straight up and down as the ball rolls down the lane, that is 0 degrees of axis tilt. This means that the ball is rolling straight end over end down the lane. The more angle there is to that dowel, the higher the degree of axis tilt. The simplest way to get a feeling for your axis tilt is to see how close the oil rings are in relation to the finger holes and thumb holes on your ball. Axis rotation is how the ball rotates around the horizontal axis as the ball goes down the lane.
    Last edited by RobLV1; 09-18-2021 at 10:41 AM.

  9. #29
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Yeah, I meant to ask for my PAP last time I had my balls drilled. But, the last couple times the pro shop was really busy and I didn't want to bother him. But, I guess, for the $330+ I'm paying I shouldn't feel too bad about the slight inconvenience.

    All I know is my track is very close (about half a thumbnail) to my thumbhole. I would measure it...but I just re-did my surfaces so I don't have any tracks right now.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Yeah, I meant to ask for my PAP last time I had my balls drilled. But, the last couple times the pro shop was really busy and I didn't want to bother him. But, I guess, for the $330+ I'm paying I shouldn't feel too bad about the slight inconvenience.

    All I know is my track is very close (about half a thumbnail) to my thumbhole. I would measure it...but I just re-did my surfaces so I don't have any tracks right now.
    Your track being close to your thumbhole is only and indication. To actually find your PAP, take a plastic spare ball and put a square of white tape about 5" to the right of your grip center. Throw the ball and watch for the tape being stationary through the first 20 or 30 feet after you throw it. If it moves, move the tape up or down, left or right until you can find the point where it doesn't move. When you find it... that's your PAP. Measure over and up or down from the grip center to get the number.

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