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Thread: Attack of the killer 10 pins

  1. #11
    Pin Crusher Phonetek's Avatar
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    If I was previously striking then leave a ten pin I don't always adjust the next frame. It's always possible that I was a tad faster or slightly missed the last frame. I keep it in the back of my mind and see how the next shot goes. Overthinking is a sure way to make sure you don't strike.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phonetek View Post
    If I was previously striking then leave a ten pin I don't always adjust the next frame. It's always possible that I was a tad faster or slightly missed the last frame. I keep it in the back of my mind and see how the next shot goes. Overthinking is a sure way to make sure you don't strike.
    Yeah same here but I do find myself giving it too many frames to confirm my suspicions. On most nights I'm not the most accurate so I usually try about 3 frames before making an adjustment. I need to get quicker at that cause that could easily be 15-20 pins lost right there depending on what I leave. Fortunately I usually get pretty good carry so even if I miss slightly I can still strike alot of those shots. Oddly I don't have the fastest speed (usually around 16.0 to16.5 at the pins) and not the highest rev rate
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  3. #13
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Yes, Aslan snd I do agree occasionally!

    In fact, a great, great majority of the corner pins that I see left in leagues are soft, or weak, tens. This is important, because the adjustments for weak tens are totally different than the adjustments for ringing tens. Most of the move up and back on the approach suggestions are based on old-time bowling when ringing tens were dominant.
    Another fine observation. I'm not sure about the history of moving back on the approach...so I'll take your word for it...but I agree that most bowlers have no idea there's a difference between a flat 10 and a ringing 10 and most bowlers leave almost predominantly all FLAT 10s...but think they are ringing 10s.

    I left ONE ringing 10 last night. It was the first one in AGES. The pin wrapped around the 10-pin then flew across the pin deck and landed on the other side. NORMALLY...the 6-pin simply falls in the gutter when I leave a 10-pin.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    The important thing to keep in mind is that corner pins are never accidents. They are all caused by something, and most of the causes can be overcome. If, however, they are being caused by topographic issues or bad racks, just hope you can pick them up, because they are a fact of life for all, or most, of the current set.
    Again; well said. It's not "bad luck"...there's SOMETHING causing it. The trick is finding out what it is and trying to fix it and keep it fixed long enough to run some strikes together. Now, 7-pins (for a righty)...or that rare ringing 10-pin that I almost never get...no sense adjusting off that. A 7-pin is usually just a bad rack for a righty...or pins that need to be replaced.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Another fine observation. I'm not sure about the history of moving back on the approach...so I'll take your word for it...but I agree that most bowlers have no idea there's a difference between a flat 10 and a ringing 10 and most bowlers leave almost predominantly all FLAT 10s...but think they are ringing 10s.

    I left ONE ringing 10 last night. It was the first one in AGES. The pin wrapped around the 10-pin then flew across the pin deck and landed on the other side. NORMALLY...the 6-pin simply falls in the gutter when I leave a 10-pin.


    Again; well said. It's not "bad luck"...there's SOMETHING causing it. The trick is finding out what it is and trying to fix it and keep it fixed long enough to run some strikes together. Now, 7-pins (for a righty)...or that rare ringing 10-pin that I almost never get...no sense adjusting off that. A 7-pin is usually just a bad rack for a righty...or pins that need to be replaced.
    I’m not sure that I agree with you on the 7 pin. On the one hand I can’t remember seeing a righty leave two or more 7 pins in a row. That would support your bad rack theory. On the other hand, it could similar to a pocket 7-10 except the bowler got lucky and the 10 went down.
    John

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    The important thing to keep in mind is that corner pins are never accidents. They are all caused by something, and most of the causes can be overcome. If, however, they are being caused by topographic issues or bad racks, just hope you can pick them up, because they are a fact of life for all, or most, of the current set.
    Absolutely!

    and even "ringing" 10 pin leaves - often they aren't really ringing 10. Instead of using a name - describe instead what the 6 pin is doing because, honestly, that's what the 10 pin leave is all about.

    Then trace it to the 3 pin - because that's what the 6 pin is all about.

    What I've noticed, when I leave 10-pins, is that it's WHERE in the pocket I'm hitting. Too deep, the 3 pin drives back, cutting the 6 out and around the 10. It may FLY around or it may slide and drop in - it's the same thing. The 6 gets cut (like in pool) - it MAY bounce into the 10 but I take that as a warning . . . the 6 pin is still not really hitting the 10.

  6. #16
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Anderson View Post
    I’m not sure that I agree with you on the 7 pin. On the one hand I can’t remember seeing a righty leave two or more 7 pins in a row. That would support your bad rack theory. On the other hand, it could similar to a pocket 7-10 except the bowler got lucky and the 10 went down.
    If you watch consistent RHers (not me)...you'll see them rarely leave 7-pins or pocket 7-10s. And when they do, if you could back it up to before they threw the ball...it's likely it was a bad rack. Which.....is why you rarely see it.

    10-pins (for righties) happen ALL THE TIME...and for a few varying reasons...pretty much related to the how the ball hits the 3-pin and then how it trips the 6-pin....and how that fails to affect the 10-pin.

    But to carry a 10-pin on a weak hit...but NOT carry a 7-pin...THEN adjust off that weak hit...you're going to mess up the 10-pin. Righties need to ignore the 7-pin and lefties ignore the 10-pin. Make your adjustments off the pin you can control.

    NOW...IF...IF...you leave a LOT of the wrong pin. For example, there is a pair at my center...closest to the interior wall...lanes #1 and #2...where I seem to leave a LOT of 7-pins ON ONE LANE. An uncanny amount of 7-pins on lane #1. If that is happening...then you need to pay more attention to your rack before you throw the ball and if something is out of whack...get a re-rack. Sometimes a pinsetter just gets messed up on a pair...and it places a pin badly every time. Professionals know to look for that stuff before they throw...but dummies like me just make sure I have 10 pins and go up there and throw.

    But I would argue a person can discount corner pins opposite their dominant hand. You have enough to worry about with your OWN pin...let the other guy worry about his/hers.
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  7. #17
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    We actually see at least one pocket 7-10 per week, so not rare, and while it easily could be a bad rack it's not something we can easily observe so not something we can blame it on.

  8. #18

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    I bowled on a pair with two bad racks, horrible on the left lane, and just a little off on the right lane. Within three games between two three-man teams there were 11 seven-ten splits; 9 of them on the left lane!

  9. #19
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    To illustrate my (and Rob's) point...

    Even though my spare shooting has suffered as of late...the single pins I leave are rather consistent and illustrated below by pointing out the pin(s) I left most often that night (last fall season):

    3/4 - 2x
    7 - 3x
    10 - 2x
    10 - 3x

    6/7/10 - 2x
    10 - 2x
    6/8 - 2x
    10 - 3x
    10 - 3x
    10 - 4x
    10 - 3x
    10 - 3x
    7 - 2x
    3/7/9/10 - 1x
    4 - 3x
    10 - 3x
    10 - 3x

    2/4/9/10 - 2x
    10 - 4x
    3/5/7/9/10 - 1x
    4 - 2x
    10 - 4x
    10 - 4x

    7 - 3x
    4/5/6/9 - 2x
    10 - 4x
    10 - 3x
    10 - 2x
    10 - 4x
    10 - 6x
    10 - 5x


    Now given how those nights...where I left primarily 7-pins...were spaced out the way they were...I'm betting that was the ONE PAIR that had the one lane that kept setting the 7-pin just slightly off.

    Now, I tried to see if the times I left a 7-10 corresponded to the times I left mostly 7-pins and...well...I NEVER left a 7-10 last fall season. I left a 4-7-10 a couple times and a Big 4 a couple times...and I left a 6-7-10 several times. But, I never left a 7-10...much less a pocket 7-10.

    My theory is...and this is just a theory...

    A pocket 7-10 SHOULD be rare because from a statistical standpoint...TWO things must go wrong simultaneously. So, in terms of probability...it's like flipping two coins and having them both be heads versus just one of them.

    Not only do you need to hit the pocket in a way that leaves the 10-pin...and there are 3-5 ways that can happen as a righty...but you ALSO need the 7-pin to be out of place...at least slightly.

    If the 7-pin is in the proper position...no matter what mistake you make or "bad luck" you have with the 10-pin...the pins will likely take it out when you hit the pocket on the right side. I left a 10-pin 75 times last fall. I left a 7-pin 18 times. I took 994 shots at full racks and 7.5% resulted in a 10-pin while 1.8% resulted in a 7-pin. I actually was more likely to leave a single 4-pin (2.6%), 6-pin (2.3%), or 9-pin (1.9%) than I was to leave a single 7-pin.

    So, is it "nearly impossible to leave a pocket 7-10"? Of course not! It's actually quite easy and very explainable. It's also very possible to flip two coins and have them both turn up heads or both turn up tails. But, I would contend that if the 7-pin is spotted correctly...it is very difficult for a righty not to take it out with a pocket hit. Maybe it's more common for the high rev guys with weird angles into the pocket that I obviously don't have to worry about.

    But, based on this data...the odds of me leaving a 7-pin is 1.8% and the odds of me leaving a 10-pin (for any number of reasons) is 7.5%. Thus the odds of me leaving a 7-10 is (0.018 x 0.075) = 0.14% which means I should leave a pocket 7-10 once every 741 shots.
    Last edited by Aslan; 10-02-2021 at 11:39 AM.
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  10. #20

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    It's actually not the seven pin being off-spot that causes seven pins for righties, as well as pocket seven-tens. An off-spot seven pin is easy to see. It's usually either the four pin or the five pin that is off-spot towards the front. This you can't see, but you certainly see the results pretty fast.

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