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Thread: The Surfacing Dilemma

  1. #11
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    A guy on my team asked a couple of weeks ago why I changed balls after rolling a 240-something. I told him cause I started seeing deflection towards the end then the first few frames of the next game I left corner pins. He said 'oh'. No argument, he just didn't know.
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  2. #12
    High Roller Phonetek's Avatar
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    That also could be what they are trying to do, make him quit. If that’s the case then I’d definitely not do anything they ask and make it my goal to annoy the crap out of them. I’d also have fun doing just that.

    See, I didn’t realize that Aslan was such a nice guy so my tactics probably aren’t his style. I’m a nice guy too but I’ve dealt with more asshats in my lifetime than many. Certainly more that him. Being a telephone repair man for as many years as I was, I literally met multiple every single day. Now working at bowling center I meet the same asshats but add alcohol.

    That experience has given me very thick skin. I can take everything that they can dish out and more. Only now I can give it back two fold. I have a bigger arsenal of sarcasm, insults and lack of fear than they have bowling balls. I don’t take crap for very long. Those guys wouldn’t stand a chance.

    I’m not saying it would come to blows, hopefully not as I’m not a fighting expert. If it did, THAT I’d likely lose plus it’s a felony. LOL However there are plenty of things I could say or do that would have them chewing their mustache probably screwing up their game at the very least. Then when it did I’d be like “Hey, maybe you should try a different surface on your ball?” That’s just me though.

    Obviously Aslan I don’t recommend to deal with them as I would. I wouldn’t want anything bad to happen to you because of me. It’s easy giving advice without actually being there. However using a few choice words and standing up telling them to worry about their own game and that their advice is NOT welcome would be something to consider. Say it in your own probably kind way but just get that point across. Maybe just maybe they will respect you enough after to listen. If not then consider leaving the league or switching teams.

    You may ramble a lot, so do I. I don’t know you personally but one thing I do know from that rambling is you want to be a better bowler. The longer this stuff goes on, the longer that’s going to take. One way or another you do need to either step up and do something about it or walk away from them so you can accomplish your goal. Fight or flight my friend, it has been going on since cavemen have walked the planet. The caveman that decided to try to reason with the T-Rex got eaten. Whatever you decide I hope for the best.

  3. #13
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryster View Post
    I would probably also give my 2 weeks notice, pay 2 weeks, and quit. No one should have to tolerate that at bowling. Losing the 2 weeks of dues would be well worth not having to deal with that garbage. Find another team on another night that doesn't act like that. It's just bowling and is supposed to be a diversion.
    That's a possibility. I mean, it's too late to join another fall/winter team at this point. Especially given my leg/achilles injury and my game being in the toilet.

    Right now I'm looking at 3 choices (no particular order):

    A) Surface both balls to 800 and try to prove a point.

    B) Leave the surfaces alone.

    C) Give my two weeks notice.

    PROS/CONS:

    A: The PRO is maybe seeing that he's wrong about surfacing will get him to realize he doesn't know everything and the issue will die without further drama. The CON is that if I actually bowl well (physically)...despite the surfacing...then I might as well spend the rest of the season asking this guy what surfaces to use and what ball changes to make because my autonomy is gone.

    B: The PRO is that I can just keep pushing forward, confident in my understanding, and work on the physical problems I'm having. The CON is this will effectively end my relationship with the team. The anchor and captain are the team and I doubt the anchor will be on the team with me next fall if I tell him I'm not gonna surface the balls, disagree with his assessment, and thats that. He's just one of those kinds of guys that doesn't "agree to disagree". So, it will a long season...if if I CAN fix my game...having one teammate that is gonna give me the cold shoulder for the rest of the season.

    C. The PROs are that my leg will heal up and it'll end the aggravation. The CONs are multiple. The captain won't want it. He'll try to keep me from leaving. I won't be able to bowl...which is the one thing I look forward to each week. My game will continue to suffer. Last time I took several months off my average dropped 20 pins. AND...given where my game is now...I think I need professional help to get back on track. And thats gonna cost $$$. I can't qualify for Camp Bakkes...and that would be $4,000 in total expenses. 2-3 days of instruction at the IRTC in Texas would run about the same...when you add up all the costs...about $4,000. So...I may need to start a piggy bank and put money in it every week, month, etc until I can hit that mark. And that means weekly bowling will need to go on a hiatus so I can sock that money away.
    In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Rhino Gold; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
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    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    A: The PRO is maybe seeing that he's wrong about surfacing will get him to realize he doesn't know everything and the issue will die without further drama. The CON is that if I actually bowl well (physically)...despite the surfacing...then I might as well spend the rest of the season asking this guy what surfaces to use and what ball changes to make because my autonomy is gone.
    Kinda looks like A is your best choice. You have nothing to lose. If it doesn't work, then he'll shut up about it. If it does work, maybe asking him what surfaces to use isn't such a bad thing. Keep in mind that I have several years of experience in dealing with you both online and in person. In that time I've learned one thing: your autonomy rarely works in your favor, and it often kept you from solving whatever problem you were dealing with.

  5. #15
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Kinda looks like A is your best choice. You have nothing to lose. If it doesn't work, then he'll shut up about it. If it does work, maybe asking him what surfaces to use isn't such a bad thing. Keep in mind that I have several years of experience in dealing with you both online and in person. In that time I've learned one thing: your autonomy rarely works in your favor, and it often kept you from solving whatever problem you were dealing with.
    Thats kinda what I'm thinking.

    The only "issue" with this 'situation' is:

    While my 'autonomy' may not have propelled me to PBA50 stardom...most of that is my physical limitations. My timing, release, poor spare shooting, lack of an inside game, etc... And one thing that I feel has been a positive for me (versus most bowlers) is that I'm very open to suggestions and assistance concerning my physical game. Most bowlers resist coaching...I've embraced coaching and had coaching from multiple highly qualified sources. Most bowlers ignore internet suggestions/conversations...I participate regularly. While I didn't renew my bowler's journal subscription...mainly because I just never needed up having the time to read the articles...I regularly read bowling ball.com's tips that come into my inbox.

    So, I think it's more accurate to describe me as someone that still is a work in progress when it comes to the physical elements of bowling...someone that needs significant work...but someone willing to listen and be coached.

    Now...and here's the issue...on the "technical" side of the game...I still have much to learn...BUT...I'm confident that I know more than most of the people I bowl with or against on any given night. For example, despite bowling with 4 guys that have been bowling since the 1980s (I started in 2014)...they;

    - don't know what an "RG" is.
    - don't know why they make ball changes.
    - they don't understand how you can read a ball's path through the pin deck to determine a ball's future strike potential.
    - they don't understand that a ball can "lose energy" as oil is removed from the lanes.
    - they don't understand the concept of 'moving left' to stay in the oil.

    And thats the problem. YOU (RobM) are an expert in ball motion and modern bowling. You understand ball specifications. You understand how surface affects ball motion. While we disagree on some issues related to strategy and arsenal progressions and chaos theories...at the end of the day...I think we agree on most fundamental issues concerning bowling ball specifications. To allow THIS GUY to dictate when I should make ball changes and what surface I should use....you're going to get answers like:

    ME: "I think I need to ball down. The ball went through the nose, I moved left, now it's deflecting."
    HIM: "Absolutely not! You've thrown 4 out of 5 shots that were strikes...just keep throwing that ball...you'll be fine."

    ME: "The ball with that surface is forcing me inside of 11...but with my speed dominance and that ball's overall weakness...it's not making the turn. But if I move outside of 11 and loft it...it's still losing too much energy to carry the 10. I think it a better strategy to lose some of the surface and try to play just outside the oil line."

    HIM: "Nope. I surfaced my ball to 2000 and it does great (first two games...then it burns up and he throws a fit and blames the center for their lousy pattern)...so everyone should follow my lead and surface their equipment."

    Realize...in that first example...knowing YOU...I gotta think you would disagree with his advice.

    Also, in that second example, whether you agree or disagree with him or me...you must realize that he's basing his advice on nothing. Worse that nothing...he's basing it on him throwing a very different ball (Incognito)...at a slightly lower ball speed....with slightly more hand. Since he knows virtually NOTHING about bowling balls...he doesn't understand that there is more to a bowling ball's movement than just surface. He's neglecting core, differential, coverstock, manufacturer, age of technology, etc...

    He believes that if I surface my Optimus Solid...that it will behave the same as his Incognito. Anyone that understands bowling balls KNOWS that is not going to happen. The Optimus Solid is not as strong as the Incognito. He's throwing a stronger ball, at a slightly lower speed, with slightly more hand....but he doesn't factor any of that into his "equation". To him, it's just the "magic of surface".

    And he doesn't even surface properly. I take my balls down to 800...6-sided wet-sanded...then go up in steps depending on what I want. He just dry-sands using a 2000 Abralon pad and calls it a day.

    But...you're right...option #1 is the best option in terms of PROs/CONs. Best upside with Least downside.
    In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Rhino Gold; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 186; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.5mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  6. #16
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    my son-in-law's grandfather is like that. He's old-school, which is the only school that should be allowed according to him. I get away with it because I'm more traditional with my style, but he's hugely derogatory especially to my son-in-law.

    I've pulled my (vocal) punches for family peace, but he's affecting my SIL and that's affecting me so he's going to get challenged very soon - with a smile on my face and polite words, but questions into the physics of bowling (which I KNOW he doesn't understand) and then before he can stumble an answer, another question as to the root cause of a specific problem (which I KNOW he can't answer) and then before he can stumble an answer to THAT, another . . . and another.


    BTW - phone repair guy? What the heck is that? LOL

  7. #17
    High Roller Phonetek's Avatar
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    BTW - phone repair guy? What the heck is that? LOL

    Hence the reason I now work in bowling centers. LOL My previous career no longer exists. Today that title describes someone who replaces cell phone screens or tosses one dropped in a toilet into a bag of rice to dry out.

    It was a great gig while it lasted. Too bad those of us who installed switches to cell towers and fiber optics didn’t realize we were actually working ourselves out of a career to extinction.

  8. #18
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Part II

    So, I surfaced the Optimus Hybrid to 800 this morning before work. I was on my way to an assignment and I started seeing texts from the team. They usually just text nonsense back and forth on the day we bowl. Well, one of the texts...even though I wasn't participating in the conversation...was "this guy" AGAIN stating that he was going to "resurface my REAR if I didn't show up with a surfaced ball."

    So, I decided to chime in and stated that I HAD surface my ball that morning to 800 and was ready to go! Well, apparently, my teammates didn't even know you 'could' resurface a ball to 800...so they were quite surprised. "This guy", in particular, responded with a LONG text about how surfacing them to 800 is going to make em just as bad as polishing them and I needed to surface them to 1500 or 2000. He then went on to say that some coach at a small university told him surfacing a ball to 2000 was optimal. I responded that I already surfaced the ball to 800 and wasn't planning on going home before bowling. The guy responded that he would bring 2000 pads with him so I could surface the ball to 2000.

    Now, realize, the other people on the text were trying to change the subject...but later in the afternoon...'the guy' AGAIN posted about surfacing the balls to 2000. I mean, it was getting to the point that I figured there was at least a 35% chance things would implode tonight...because this guy was already on my nerves..and was seemingly going out of his way to get further on my nerves.

    to be continued....
    In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Rhino Gold; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 186; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.5mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  9. #19
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Part II (cont.)

    So, I get to the lanes...do my leg stretches and tape up my calf. I put the sanded ball on the table and wait for the rest of the team to arrive.

    Eventually, "the guy" gets there and sees the ball. He's surprised and doesn't think the ball is actually surfaced to 800. He asks if I used a fresh sanding pad or not.

    Now, realize...the main reason for his question is that I "wet sand" using a 6-sided sanding method. I have every grade of sanding pad from 180 to 4000...Storm compounds, Brunswick compound, and resin polish. I have a semi-professional 2-speed ball spinner. 'This guy' essentially uses a low-end spinner and "dry sands" his balls.

    So, he went on to suggest that I show the balls in practice and if they reacted too much...I could hit them with 2000 Abralon pads that he had with him. I agreed.

    Practice went pretty much as I predicted.

    The Optimus Solid at 800...up the 8-9 didn't react much...and I couldn't carry the 10-pin. I actually had to move 1:2 right to straighten out the line...because there was so little movement downlane. You'd expect a sanded ball...especially at 800...to react violently in the dry...BUT:

    1) Surface doesn't make a ball hook MORE...it makes a ball hook SOONER.

    2) By the time the ball hit the pocket...there was no energy left...especially up the 7-9 boards.

    BUT...I was committed to at least ONE GAME using this "sanded miracle".

    For results...see "Aslan's Scores (of the non-lady kind)" thread...
    In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Rhino Gold; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 186; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.5mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  10. #20
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    Surface CAN make a ball hook more - it typically also make it hook sooner. It will also, as you said, burn up energy. You have to look at both the "wheel" and the "road"

    If the "road" is flooded and wet, a slick tire is not going to move until it hits the traction at the end, and it's going to snap and deliver its energy in a hard to control fashion. A grooved tire is going to grab traction throughout the length. It will lose more energy throughout, but it will be controllable throughout.

    If the "road" is dry (or wet in a shorter length) - the slick tire is going to be more efficient. It will snap, but not as much and there will be recovery time. A grooved tire will burn EVERYTHING and not have anything left at the end.

    Sorry for my rally-driving analogy. It's what I used to do (97 Neon ACR in the California Rally Series) and it has really helped me clear up how balls work on the lanes. The analogy isn't perfect (no analogy is) but it's close enough to really clear things up for me.

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