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Thread: The Surfacing Dilemma

  1. #21

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    The discussion about one ball hooking more than another is always predicated on how the amount of hook is calibrated. If you use the traditional method of counting the number of boards covered, then yes, one ball hooks more than another. If, on the other hand, you use the angle of the change of direction, then no, that angle is generated by the release of the bowler. Number of boards is affected by when then ball hooks, while the angle of the change of direction is the only true indicator of how much it hooks.

  2. #22
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    The INTERESTING (to bowling nerds like me) think to me...about this debacle...and maybe Rob can shed some light on this or give his 2 cents....

    But, when I was throwing the sanded Optimus Solid (symmetric, solid, 2.48 RG, 0.048 diff., 800 Siaair)...I started standing left foot on 19 and aiming 8-9. So, even on a wider THS...I was outside the oil line. I ended up having to move 1:2 RIGHT...to straighten out the angle of entry to the pocket...AND...I had to loft the ball by changing my vertical target to about the midpoint of the lanes.

    Now, in Games 2 & 3...I switched to the Pyramid Force Pearl (assymetric, pearl, 2.53 RG, 0.051 diff., surfaced to 2000 Abralon and then polished with resin polish). I ended up having to move my targeting back down closer to the arrows...and needed to move quite a bit left. On the left lane I was standing left foot on 25 and aiming at 12 and on the right lane I was standing with my left foot on 27 and was aiming at 13.

    So...to sum up the lateral movement...we're talking 3-5 boards left with my eyes and 4-6 with my feet. Not creating a great deal more angle...a little bit. But if you consider a THS oil line is almost always going to start by 11...I was moving INSIDE the oil line by late Game 2 and all of Game 3.

    The "results" were also interesting:

    Game 1: Pretty much all pocket hits...maybe 1-2 Brooklyn strikes: 5 strikes, 3 10-pins, 2 5-pins, 1 7-pin.

    Game 2: 6 strikes, 1 5-pin, 1 7-pin, 1 3-pin (pulled shot), 1 9-pin (telling me I needed to move left).

    Game 3: 7 strikes, 1 split (telling me I needed to move further left), 1 1-3-6-9 (pulled shot), 1 4-pin (telling me I need to move left), 1 10-pin.

    If I'm looking at those results...and feel free to disagree:

    A) I see a LOT of missed opportunities to carry in Game 1 when I was leaving pins that are evidence of balls hitting the pocket lacking energy (10s, 5s, maybe 7s).

    B) In Games 2 and 3, the spares left tend to be more related to either bad physical shots (pulling shots) or are leaves that are evidence of transition (going through the nose, 4s, and 9s).

    So if SURFACE is supposed to help me play in the oil...why did I need to move right and straighten out my line with a surfaced ball?

    Likewise, if a polished ball is too slick to play 'in the oil', why when I balled down did I need to start rapidly moving left into the oil?

    Could it be, maybe, that I was correct in my initial assumption..based on throwing the Optimus Solid all summer with a 1500 surface on it as my Ball #1...that you can't make a ball stronger by surfacing it? The Optimus Solid is a weaker ball and I don't have the hand to make it perform well in the oil. Surfacing the heck out of it isn't going to turn it into a different ball. The Force Pearl...a much STRONGER ball. I can polish it so it doesn't burn up in the transitioned lanes so I can use it later in matches...but I can't stay out in the track all night and pretend that the polish magically turns it into a Storm Mix.

    Or am I off base?
    Last edited by Aslan; 12-01-2021 at 01:33 PM.
    In Bag: (: .) DV8 Grudge Hybrid; (: .) Storm Optimus Solid; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Fortera Exile; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
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    Ball Speed: 15.81mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (689); Clean Games: 171

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  3. #23

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    "Game 1: Pretty much all pocket hits...maybe 1-2 Brooklyn strikes: 5 strikes, 3 10-pins, 2 5-pins, 1 7-pin."

    Kinda seems like game one featured a low RG ball with too much surface, playing in the dirt where it was rolling out real early leaving weak 10's, 5 pins, and a seven pin.

    Once you moved left and changed to a ball designed to hit the pins with some integrity, you had better results. You just went from a horrible line with too much ball, to a good line with the right ball. You really need to stop thinking that oil is your enemy. It's not! In modern bowling, oil is your friend... it helps the ball retain it's energy for the pins where it's needed.

  4. #24
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    But why did I need to move right with the first ball?

    Thats where my "stronger/weaker" comes into play.

    If oil = good...and sanded = better in oil...then the first ball should have been the bee's knees. But, it wasn't. I actually had to move right 1:2 because it wouldn't make the turn.

    Now, in fairness...I wasn't really in the oil with it when it wasn't making the turn...I was up 8-9. But, the Force Pearl made the turn (and the some) up 8-9...forcing me all the way into 12-13. So, Force Pearl = "stronger ball" than Optimus Solid?

    "AND"...you can't sand the Optimus Solid to make it into a Force Pearl. Right?
    In Bag: (: .) DV8 Grudge Hybrid; (: .) Storm Optimus Solid; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Fortera Exile; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 179; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.81mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (689); Clean Games: 171

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  5. #25
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    Just a guess but was the ball rolling out? I have had them not hook before because there was so much surface that once it his friction it just rolled end over end. At first I was confused thinking moving right was the solution but ended up being too much surface for that part of the lane.
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  6. #26

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    It wouldn't "make the turn" because there was so much friction out there in the dry that your end-over-end type of roll never produced enough sideways energy to get the ball to hook. You are operating under the assumption that there is oil from ten to ten on all house shots. That is not always the case. Once you switched to the Force Pearl, you found enough side rotation to equal the forward momentum and allow the ball to hook. Then you had to move into more oil to control that hook. This is where your weak ball / strong ball strategy is flawed. It's not weak ball, strong ball, it's right ball, wrong ball. Does this make sense?

  7. #27
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    It wouldn't "make the turn" because there was so much friction out there in the dry that your end-over-end type of roll never produced enough sideways energy to get the ball to hook. You are operating under the assumption that there is oil from ten to ten on all house shots. That is not always the case. Once you switched to the Force Pearl, you found enough side rotation to equal the forward momentum and allow the ball to hook. Then you had to move into more oil to control that hook. This is where your weak ball / strong ball strategy is flawed. It's not weak ball, strong ball, it's right ball, wrong ball. Does this make sense?


    Now I'm admittingly lost...

    Okay, can you explain it this way. Given those two balls (specs provided and whatever you know about them)...why wasn't there enough sideways energy in the Optimus vs. the Force?

    I mean, the RPMs and axis tilts...all that stuff are essentially constant. The angle I was playing may have opened up 'slightly' when I moved inside with the Force Pearl...but very little. If we look at the Optimus; I was probably laying it down on 12-13 and aiming for 8-9...essentially 4 boards of difference. At my deepest spot in Game 3 with the Force Pearl I was probably laying it down on 18-21 and aiming for 12-13...so 6-8 boards difference.

    So, if you have two balls...both thrown at similar speeds, similar RPMs, similar axis tilts/axis rotation....what are the differences?

    - ball specifications (RG, differential, manufacturer, coverstock, age/technology)
    - surface

    When I switched from the Optimus to the Force Pearl...I had moved into 'about' standing 21/aiming 9...but my vertical target was midway down the lane due to massive surface problem on the Optimus. Switching to the Force...I could bring that vertical target back in around the arrows.

    BUT...I still needed to move left. 1:1 at first...then 1:2, etc... until I was eventually around standing 25/aiming 12.

    My only explanation (besides the stronger ball explanation)...is simple transition. I always move left over the course of the night...that night was no different. As I moved into 9-11...I was in the track, heavily played area, a lot of transition, so you're going to need to make more frequent moves.

    @boatman
    The point I was trying to get at is that the Optimus Solid has been giving me problems over the summer. I was hoping to surface it to 1500 and use it on fresh oil...do exactly what Rob has been preaching...get inside that oil rather than start out in the 7-10 area. But, I couldn't find a line that worked. If I layed the ball down around 14 and targeted 11-12...it wouldn't make it back to pocket...as if the line wasn't right. Not that it was burning up...just that the line was too extreme for the ball given my low RPMs.

    So, then I'd move outside (of the typical oil line) and lay the ball down around 12 and aim for 9...and the ball would either go through the nose or hit the pocket and deflect terribly...leaving me 10-pins, 5-pins, 8-pins, etc.. So, that ball, with surface...just wasn't working on fresh conditions...because I couldn't find a line where it worked.

    So, I changed the surface to Storm Step 2 and figured I'd use it as a "ball down" option to my Aura Mystic (which I took out of retirement). That decision seemed to be working fairly well...for 2 weeks...and then I went to pull the Mystic out of my ball bag and noticed it had cracked all the way around the ball. At that point, I had to unretire the Grudge Hybrid...which has always been a bit too strong for the house I bowl at. It gives me the same problem I talked about above. I try to play close to 3rd arrow...I leave 2-pin combinations...I try to move outside and play more "up and in"....it either goes through the nose or deflects terribly.
    In Bag: (: .) DV8 Grudge Hybrid; (: .) Storm Optimus Solid; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Fortera Exile; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 179; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.81mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (689); Clean Games: 171

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  8. #28
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    As others have said, sounds like the ball is losing energy/rolling out, causing the deflection. For context, I was once bowling in a Pro-Am and complained to the pro on our pair that I had left a few weak 10's, a couple of 8's, and an 8-10 in the previous game. I incorrectly attributed it to carrydown. He said to me "sounds to me like the lanes are getting dry and you are using a ball with too much surface. it is rolling out and deflecting. if you happen to have a pearl try that and see what happens." So I immediately switched to a pearl, my carry issues went away, and I ended up beating that same pro.

  9. #29

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    We keep coming back to your attitude about oil. You know that a ball cannot hook in the oil and you think that's a bad thing. It's not. That fact alone should tell you how to use the oil to your advantage. You use the oil to help to get your ball to the point where it needs to be to maintain maximum power to impart to the pins. You are looking at the lanes from side to side instead of front to back. You needn't be afraid that your ball is not hooking for the first thirty to forty feet of lane. Know that whatever hook you get for the last 20 feet of lane is what is going to knock down the pins.

  10. #30
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    Aslan, something I would recommend doing if you haven't already is drawing to scale a bowling lane, from foul line to the back of the deck to get a different view of the impact of front to back ball motion vs. left to right ball motion. There is definitely some really good points in this thread about oil, releases, etc. and I do think that the common thread of you were using too strong of a ball with too much surface to create room and carry. My two cents on this (and I am open to correction/critical comments) is as follows:

    1. Another way to say oil is your friend - you use the oil to attack the friction on the lane. The oil helps you gets to that part of the lane in which your ball needs to use its energy.
    2. When talking about "ball up" or "ball down" it may help to shift your perspective away from the left and right comparisons and more to the front and back comparison. Think of "ball up" not as a recipe to move left, but rather as a recipe for the ball to start its move (and use its energy) closer to you, and "ball down" as moving this closer to the pins. I know this is an over-generalization, but it may help in the rolling out discussion.
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