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Thread: Question using Abralon sanding pads..........

  1. #11
    High Roller Phonetek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Your PSO is "kind've wrong".

    This won't take physics knowledge...just being old enough to have had a wood/metal shop class in high school...

    The "grit" of the pads (or sandpaper outside of bowling) determines the finish. You can't get a 500 finish with a 2000 pad...no matter how hard you press or how many times you spin the ball. It's physically impossible. The 2000 pad will surface the ball to 2000...then if you just continue to surface...the pad will eventually lose it's effectiveness.

    Now, that's why I say, "kind've wrong"...because a "dull" 2000 pad is going to start to lose it's ability to surface to 2000...and you'll end up with something like a 2750 at some point if you keep using the dull pad till there's literally nothing left.
    Your comprehension of what I wrote is kind've wrong, actually just blatantly wrong. I never said you'd get a 500 surface from a 2000 pad, that would be a ridiculous statement. Re-read what I said and you'll notice it's quite the opposite.

    They may not cover it in wood/metals but in physics they do. Chapter 2 "Every action has a reaction". Action: Keep going over a 500 grit over and over. Reaction: You are evening out the surface of the ball.

    The point of a lower grits IS to make it UNEVEN. The higher grits are to make it smoother, hence EVEN. Every pass you do it you're making it smoother so how is making it smoother keeping it 500 grit? I'm not even taking about wear and tear on the pads, for sake of argument pretend they never wear out.

    If you're curious what Chapter 1 is in Physics, I believe it's "What goes up, must come down" by Sir Isaac Newton. It's irrelevant for this conversation though.

  2. #12

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    I find this to be a SHOCKING reply from a guy that has written in depth articles...some of which I've read in their entirety...on ball RG and topics such as how environmental factors and topography will minutely affect ball motion.
    As a teacher, it has always been my job to first assess what students need to learn based on their particular levels of knowledge and attitudes. Back when I was writing those complex articles about the modern aspects of our sport, I was reacting to those many bowlers who were stuck in the past and ignoring the modern aspects of the game. Now I see a disturbing trend in the other direction of which you (Aslan) are a prime example. Many bowlers have become obsessed with bowling balls, either the core specifics, or more commonly, surfacing as it is easier to understand. Many have forgotten that it is still the physical activity of the sport that must be mastered before the extras such as core dynamics and surfacing make much difference at all.

    Despite my own history of writing complex articles about bowling balls, I have to admit that I am currently bowling better than I ever have before despite the fact that I leave my six bowling balls in my locker at the bowling center, touch up the surfaces by hand about once a month, never clean them, and take them home to resurface once a year whether they need it or not!

  3. #13

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    As far as surface conditioning consistency is the key. I do mine on a spinner and do the same thing every time. I clean my stuff the next morning on the spinner which is just my way and it works for me. I recently had a Roto Grip Helios drilled and that ball get dirty fast but cleans up good on the spinner. I see others around that look like they have been in war and these guys are the higher average guys in my center. So just come up with your way and do it the same all the time. One other thing you can do whatever to the surface but if you don't execute and don't make your spares you won't score. Steve
    Current arsenal...Roto Grip Nuclear Cell, Hustle PBR, Roto Grip Gem, Idle Helios and Own It Spare. 300 rev rate, 16 mph off hand, 13.3 tilt,61 degrees rotation pap 4 9/16 over 1 1/8 up.

  4. #14
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatman37 View Post
    Heck, there are 7 of us on my current team and I'm the only one that even cleans them after we are done. The other guys are in their cars and on the way home while I'm still sitting there with a towel full of ball cleaner.
    Yup...Me too. I'm cleaning each ball I used that night and everyone else is gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phonetek View Post
    Your comprehension of what I wrote is kind've wrong, actually just blatantly wrong. I never said you'd get a 500 surface from a 2000 pad, that would be a ridiculous statement. Re-read what I said and you'll notice it's quite the opposite.
    Okay...but now Phonetek is arguing with Phonetek...and that's confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phonetek View Post
    .. You can use a new 500 grit pad on a ball but you may end up with a 2000 grit surface if you move your hand too slowly and too many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phonetek View Post
    They may not cover it in wood/metals but in physics they do. Chapter 2 "Every action has a reaction". Action: Keep going over a 500 grit over and over. Reaction: You are evening out the surface of the ball.
    Incorrect physics reference...and "keep going over it with X grit and you are evening out the surface of the ball." is "kind've true". I would alter it slightly to say, "continually going over a surface with "X" grit will result in "X" surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phonetek View Post
    The point of a lower grits IS to make it UNEVEN. The higher grits are to make it smoother, hence EVEN. Every pass you do it you're making it smoother so how is making it smoother keeping it 500 grit? I'm not even taking about wear and tear on the pads, for sake of argument pretend they never wear out.
    Again...at risk of poking the bear...and creating an MWhite style argument...

    ...not really true...at least not how you're phrasing it.

    The point of sandpaper/sanding is to SMOOTH out a surface...not "make it uneven". The surface is already uneven...whether it's a wood board, a piece of metal, or a resin ball. The sanding pad simply smooths out the surface to a specific level. Will sanding a ball that is at 3500 with a 500-pad "make it uneven"? Actually, "sort of". I wouldn't use the term "uneven"...I'd say it will make the surface "evenly 500 grit"...assuming you are applying 4-sided or 6-sided technique and relatively even pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phonetek View Post
    If you're curious what Chapter 1 is in Physics, I believe it's "What goes up, must come down" by Sir Isaac Newton. It's irrelevant for this conversation though.
    I was kind've curious. And, it DOES have relevance to this topic. (turn away RobM)...because the original calculation I used to determine the effectiveness difference between a sanding by machine versus by hand took into account the Force applied by gravity...which is related to that "chapter".

    Quote Originally Posted by Phonetek View Post
    So if you're trying to bring a ball down to 500, the key is to move quickly, press hard and don't keep going over the same spots. If you keep overlapping, you're creating more sanding paths, the more sanding paths then the higher the grit. Yeah you're taking more surface of the ball away but your also making it smoother with each pass which is counter productive to what your trying to accomplish. Again, hard, fast movements and 2-3 passes maximum to try get a 500 grit surface.
    This explanation...I, again...just don't think it's correct. You always want to apply constant pressure. Surfacing is about consistency...not fast and quick and intermittent forceful movements.

    I guess, I'd try to put it more simply like this:

    Sanding isn't like painting...it's like wallpapering. If you paint a wall, and then put on another coat, then another, then another, then another...you get a darker result each time. With wallpaper...the result is always going to be the same...no matter whether you put one sheet of wallpaper or 3 sheets of wallpaper...it's the same design.

    When you sand with 2000...it surfaces to 2000. Pressure and revolutions and technique will effect the consistency and how long that surface will last...but 2000 is 2000....just like a wallpaper with trains on it is a wallpaper with trains on it. But, like I said...there is the variable of the pads not being fresh. And, thats a significant variable given they wear out quickly and become clogged quickly. So, if you're using an old pad...then it may not be a true 2000 grit.

    The "grit" is essentially different sized pieces of rock (it's not actual rock anymore, it's synthetic). So, the finer grits are just tinier pieces that are closer together. The smaller the rocks and closer together they are, the smoother the finish. "Compound/Polish" is essentially very, very tiny "rocks" suspended in a liquid...which produces the smoothest finish. Thats why you can't change the "grit" of the finish by applying more pressure. You can change the consistency, but the grit is what the grit is because you can't change the size of the rock.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Now I see a disturbing trend in the other direction of which you (Aslan) are a prime example. Many bowlers have become obsessed with bowling balls, either the core specifics, or more commonly, surfacing as it is easier to understand. Many have forgotten that it is still the physical activity of the sport that must be mastered before the extras such as core dynamics and surfacing make much difference at all.
    A part of me thinks you just like to be critical of your students.

    I mean, you spend years trying to get people to get past preconceived notions and embrace modern bowling concepts...and when they finally do...you scoff at them and tell them they need to stop focusing on all that nonsense, just grab a ball out of the locker, hit it with a pad, and go bowl. Pretty soon you're gonna be telling bowlers to stop moving inside and stick with 2nd arrow which works for 95% of bowlers on a THS!

    Rob...my prodding you aside...I DO actually agree with you. At the end of the day, bowling is 90% about making quality, repeatable shots and picking up spares. I only dove into the surfacing discussion because that was the discussion...but I totally agree that if you have your choice between spending $1200 on a year's worth of lessons or on a ball spinner and a year's worth of surfacing supplies...go with the lessons every day and twice on Saturday! Your game will be better for it.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    I find this to be a SHOCKING reply from a guy that has written in depth articles...some of which I've read in their entirety...on ball RG and topics such as how environmental factors and topography will minutely affect ball motion.
    I think Rob's point was more to the fact that, as an extreme for example, a 120 average bowler is worried about issues that a 220 average bowler should be worrying about rather than focusing on the fundamentals that can get that 120 guy/gal to 180, like form, consistency, etc. That's how I took that comment. Or he was just frustrated and said 'just throw the damn ball' lol
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by boatman37 View Post
    I think Rob's point was more to the fact that, as an extreme for example, a 120 average bowler is worried about issues that a 220 average bowler should be worrying about rather than focusing on the fundamentals that can get that 120 guy/gal to 180, like form, consistency, etc. That's how I took that comment. Or he was just frustrated and said 'just throw the damn ball' lol
    While sitting at my computer, I must admit to laughing out loud at this post. You are right on both counts! There is another issue, however, and that is one of emphasis/exclusion, and that's the heart of the matter. Yes, bowling balls are important, and understanding them is even more important. Yes, surface is important. Yes, topography is important. Yes, oil patterns are important. Yes, lateral adjustments are important. Yes, hand position adjustments are important. Yes, speed adjustments are important. Yes, loft adjustments are important. Most importantly, noticing and understand transitions is important. My point of this whole thing was that bowlers today cannot effort to get hung up on one thing... you have to look at everything and learn when to make the correct adjustment. Just thinking about what surface you are applying to your ball and how you are doing it is going to leave you several dollars short!

  7. #17
    High Roller Phonetek's Avatar
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    To much to quote so I'll pick just this
    Aslan said this..."The point of sandpaper/sanding is to SMOOTH out a surface...not "make it uneven". The surface is already uneven...whether it's a wood board, a piece of metal, or a resin ball."

    You're simply not understanding what I'm saying but I'll give it one last try. You are not evening the surface with 500 grit unless the ball was 0-499 grit to begin with. Of course they are uneven but not THAT uneven. Take any ball with any higher grit surface. Let's use a plastic ball for the example, say it's 5000 grit. Look at the surface with magnification.

    Now hit the ball with 500 grit and again look at the same surface with the same magnification. Can you seriously tell me that that surface is more "EVEN" that it is at 5000 grit? With 500 you're putting deep grooves in the surface hence making it uneven. Your making a smoother surface rough not making a rough surface smoother.

    Sanding something doesn't automatically mean you're smoothing it! You're only smoothing it if the grit is smoother than what you're using it on. It doesn't matter what the surface is made of, wood, metal, bowling ball or a freaking diamond.

    Now those deep grooves you just put in the ball by sanding quickly like I was saying are spaced out because of the size of the grit. Look again with magnification. If you go too slowly now these grooves are going to continue to over lap, the grooves get wider and wider. Eventually the grooves will be so wide that they aren't grooves anymore they are now a flat surface again which is counter productive. You're not making it MORE 500 grit by sanding it more, you're making it less like 500 meaning 800, 1000, 1500 and so on. Again, look at it with magnification and you'll see what I'm talking about. Yeah it will be rougher than you started with but it won't truly be 500 grit.

    Those grooves are what gives you the surface. You WANT those singular deep grooves at 500. Making them wider and overlapping them takes them away! All you accomplished is making the surface dull and powdery looking. That doesn't equal surface, all you did is take away the luster. If that's the case then by the time practice is over and it's lane shined the surface is moot when the league starts. For it to last as long as it should it needs to be done properly. It still don't last long either way but why grind away at the diameter of the ball for nothing?

    Maybe you'll understand with this explanation because I apparently didn't make it clear enough before. If not then I give up, I will not go back and forth. I'm not Mike W. and I don't appreciate the association by the way. I'm not going to bang my head against the wall though trying to explain something to someone that can't grasp it. I do have better things to do. Hopefully I succeeded.

  8. #18
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    Personally, I do not bother adjusting the surface of my bowling balls. I do on occasion send one or two to spend time in the pro shop’s sauna which is followed by a ride in the resurfacing machine and the changing of the finger grips.

    My day job does at times involve using sandpaper on wood or painted wood. Sanding longer with a coarse grit does not equal sanding with a finer grit. It just removes more of the wood. In wood finishing the idea is flatten the high spots with the coarse and then remove the scratches left by the sand paper by using progressively finer grits. A bowling ball is already uniformly round. The only reason for us to sand it is to change the surface texture of the ball. Bowlers have effectively changed the texture by hand sanding for decades. There’s no doubt in my mind that a ball spinner would probably do the job quicker with less effort.
    John

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    High Roller Phonetek's Avatar
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    I'm not disputing the longer you sand the more surface you are removing. You can sand a bowling ball to the size of a golf ball if you really want to. The difference between using a spinner and by hand isn't really what I'm talking about. I'm specifically talking about using a spinner.

    What I'm saying is the more you sand it the less chance of maintaining the surface of what you're trying to put on it will be by sanding more.

    Obviously there is no way I can prove this with mere words. I need one of those surface checker doo-dads that the pro shops have, a few new pads and do a video.

    If my PSO didn't show me this in person I would likely be skeptical too. Since I don't have that doo-dad I obviously can't do this. It wouldn't be a feasible purchase because I wouldn't use it other than to prove my point. That's ok.

    All I can suggest is that any of you with a spinner grab two balls and two new 500 pads. Do one with a 500 doing it like I said and do the other at 500 going over it and over it a bunch of times slowly. Bring them both to your PSO and have them use their doo-dad to read the surface of both balls. Then come back here and tell me if I'm right or wrong. Nothing more I can say until then.

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    I think a certain amount of the problem here is confusing "smooth" with "make consistent"

    sandpaper (abralon pads, whatever) don't "smooth" (bear with me) but rather "make consistent"

    if you have a surface that is raw, it is inconsistent. There are bumps, valleys, some may be at one consistency and other parts may be at another.

    We can hit that surface with a high grit pad, say 1000, and it will take the high points and grind them so they are at a 1000 grit consistency. If we continue long enough, we can eventually get the whole thing to a 1000 grit consistency although it will take quite a bit of time to do so.

    We can hit that surface with a low grit pad, say 120, and it will QUICKLY take down the high points, even down to the valleys, and make the whole thing a 120 grit consistency.

    We can then move up grits, say to 240, and that will then start by taking down the peaks to a 240 consistency with valleys left. Keep it on longer and it will take down the peaks low enough that the valleys disappear. Repat this process to get a fully consistent surface of 1000 or whatever.

    We can also combine this - take that 120 grit, then knock down the peaks so you keep some deep valleys but you have a lighter consistency on the now leveled peaks.


    But all of this is dependent upon GRIT, PRESSURE, and TIME.

    Grit plus pressure and no time - not much consistency.
    Grit plus time but no pressure - not much consistency - might knock off tops or put in surface scratches but no consistency unless a LOT of time is used.


    In woodworking or metalworking, it's about consistency - smoothness is used in place of that, but consistency is what we mean. We use a higher grit until we smooth out the scratches made by a lower grit - we make the surface consistent with the grit we are working with until we get to the surface we want.

    And I think that's where the confusion comes in - smoothness can equal high grit AND/OR it can mean nice consistent surface (no scratches from a lower grit, etc.)

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