What do you think constitutes a fair handicap?

[martin]

hmm just wondering.. what is meant by 90% of 200, 100% of 220 and so on? i don't understand the handicap system.. and what is sandbagging anyway?

[chrono00]

How do they feel? The same.

Looking around the forums the same feeling's are still here, Handicap has destroyed bowling because it makes everyone want to sandbag. Everyone except me and "thee" is a sandbagger.

The one main change is they have gotten away from arguing the numbers.

The new argument about the problem with handicap is. That it's easier for low average bowlers to bowl over their average, than it is for high average bowlers. That's why handicap isn't fair to higher averages.

And don't bother saying if you don't like handicap go bowl scratch, they have plenty of reasons why they can't.

Now if they could just figure away to penalize a low average bowlers for bowling good and keep them coming back and pumping money into the prizefund.

it doesn't destroy it, it keeps the less skilled people from quiting, so you don't only have that 5% or so that average over 180.

the only way it's unfair to the better average is when it's 100%, which I agree is pretty stupid. 100% means no matter how good you are, you get no reward for it.

80-90% is pretty fine. say 80%, your giving the lower average a chance. if a is a 100 average and b a 200 and b bowls his average, then a has to bowl better than average to win still.
it's average for a reason. the higher averages are obviously going to be more consistant.

[chrono00]

hmm just wondering.. what is meant by 90% of 200, 100% of 220 and so on? i don't understand the handicap system.. and what is sandbagging anyway?

90% of 200 for example. this means if your average is less than 200, you get 90% of the difference

so say your average is 150. the difference between 200 and 150 is 50. so you would get 90% of 50=45 pins handicap.

so if your a 150 against a 200, your only 5 pins apart after handicap.

since it's 90% of 200, if someone averages say 220, and your a 150, you would still only get the 45 pin handicap.

sandbagging=douchebags who intentionally play ****ty when it doesn't matter to have a lower average than what they are actually capable of/should average.

I know I should average 150, but I throw the ball in the gutter on some spares the first 2 weeks so my average for the league is 120. I get more handicap than i would at 150. after those 2 weeks I start throwing the 150 that I know I can average, but rather than "just hitting my average" I'm doing way better than average because I sandbagged it down.

[dgz924s]

Equality in a handicap system is never going to happen no matter how it is formatted IMHO. The USBC has done as best they can to create fairness. Handicapping is a set system whereas bowlers fluctuate in scoring meaning we have good nights and bad ones so one night we get beat by a high handicap by a lousy outing then turn around the next and bowl great and win over the same high handicapper. Bottom line here is ...just practice and get better. That same thing applies to low average bowlers, if you don't like being a 150 avg. get out and work to improve it. Practice means just that, practice! Not bowl league 1-2 nights a week and expect to jump 50 pins in average.
But back to handicaps, I feel it would be best to have a tiered system where averages are grouped, for example 130 to 150 averages all compete as a group, 151 to 170 and so on. Now the issue is this diminishes prize money. Having 100 bowlers and several tiers means several 1st places thus reducing the winning amount because the entire pot has to be divided several ways. 2000.00 pot for 5 winners is more than 10 winners having to share the pot.
But IMHO if you are bowling to win money, you are in the wrong sport. I feel that prize awards should be eliminated and a point system be established awarding points for high game for the week, X amount of strikes in a row, clean game and so on. At the season end add up the points and be awarded bowling equipment, free game, food, and the long gone trophy. The point system would be similiar to a autoracing points system just to give you something to get an idea.
Handicaps would still be a part but only apply to your tier level.

[bowl1820]

hmm just wondering.. what is meant by 90% of 200, 100% of 220 and so on? i don't understand the handicap system.. and what is sandbagging anyway?

Most leagues use what is called the "Individual Method" of handicapping. This is where each bowler receives a handicap based on a percentage of the difference between their average and a base (scratch) figure.

Example: 90% of 200

Here you see a percentage of 90% and a base figure of 200. To calculate the handicap you take the bowler's average, let's say 173. You then subtract that from the base figure, 200 - 173= 27.

You then multiply the difference (27) by the percentage (90%), 27 X 90% = 24.3

You drop the fraction and the bowler's handicap is 24, Then the individual handicaps of the bowlers are added together for the team handicap.

Another method used is the "Team Method" of Handicapping. This basically the same as the "Individual Method", but instead using the individual bowler's average. You use the teams average subtracted from a base figure.

Example: 90% of 800
Your team has 4 bowler's, their averages are 183, 125, 162, 179. you add these together.
183 +123 +162 +179 = 647 team average

You then subtract that average from the base figure, 800 - 647 = 153

You then multiply the difference (153) by the percentage (90%), 153 X 90% = 137.7

You drop the fraction and the team's handicap is 137

There is also the "Team Difference" method of handicapping. This is where the l handicap is a percentage of the difference between the two teams averages. The lower average team gets the handicap, the higher average team gets none.

Example: 90% of the difference in team averages.

Team "A" has a team average of 647.
Team "B" has a team average of 597.

First you subtract the lower average from the higher average, 647 - 597 = 50
You then multiply the difference (50) by the percentage (90%), 50 X 90% = 45

45 is the lower teams handicap.

and what is sandbagging anyway?

Sandbagging is where a bowler play's beneath their ability, to gain a unfair advantage in handicap or classified competition.
(their trying to lower their average to get more handicap)

it doesn't destroy it, it keeps the less skilled people from quiting, so you don't only have that 5% or so that average over 180.

I agree it doesn't destroy the game, but that is the impression someone can get from reading all the post's discussing handicap in the forums.

Most of the time when discussion's about handicap start, it's about how the high handicapper's always win the tournaments, the league, beat everybody in the brackets etc.

That high handicap's foster sandbagging, all the leagues and tournament's are full of sandbagger's.

And how they wish it was like the old day's, when 200+ averages were the elite and dominated everything.

the only way it's unfair to the better average is when it's 100%, which I agree is pretty stupid. 100% means no matter how good you are, you get no reward for it.

Now there's a point of contention, The research show's that even at 100% higher averages still have the advantage in the long run.

[chrono00]

Now there's a point of contention, The research show's that even at 100% higher averages still have the advantage in the long run.

i'm sure that's probably true. higher average usually means more skilled, which means they are going to be more consistent. but the 200 average bowler gets no reward for being 50 pins better than the 150 average they are bowling against. he gets as much as the 150 vs another 150...nothing.

80-90% gives the lower average the chance, but still gives the higher average some reward for being skilled.

I only average in the high 140's, so i'm not arguing against the 100% because I"m the "elite" bowler, it's just an unbiased opinion on what is fair enough to keep the lower average ppl from quitting because they can't win basically.

in all the leagues i've bowled in, with 80%, the teams with the highest averages are usually at or near the top of the standings, but the mid-lower average teams are usually in the hunt too. and that's how it should be, the more skilled teams should win more often. but the handicap gives everyone SOME chance.

hell one of the coolest things I saw was the first summer league I bowled.
one team completely stacked. 3 guys over 200, and the girl on their team around 150.
the other team was my g/f at the time and 2 other girls, all average between like 100-120, with the one guy averageing 200.
13 weeks, 3 wins a week, no points for totals. knockdowns, my g/f's team need to win all 3 games to take the championship.
pretty much our entire league was down at their lanes for the third game watching the stacked team melt down because they couldn't overatake these little girls that they were SOOO much better than
what really made it sweet was two of the guys on that team are huge douches anyway. and they were all kicking **** and cursing. the one guy was even trying to talk **** to the girls while they were on the approach to get in their head.

[bowl1820]

Thought I'd repost this link for those that haven't read from the beginning of this thread.

Heres a link to USBC information on handicaps

Click here for THE FACTS ABOUT HANDICAPS

[chrono00]

Thought I'd repost this link for those that haven't read from the beginning of this thread.

Heres a link to USBC information on handicaps

Click here for THE FACTS ABOUT HANDICAPS

on that sheet, 0 out of 100 won with 80% handicap. but in my above post about my g/f's team, they're team was in the bottom 3rd of a 20 team league in team average, and they won the championship.

[10-in-the-pit]

Our league uses 90% of 220. You are limited to a 10-pin drop throughout the season from the Entering Book Average and/or 1st half league average. Unfortunately, we still have a good share of sandbaggers and a few who are re-rated. Then the sandbaggers would bring in new blood and have this "beginner" bag the whole season and just turn it on at the end. My favorite one was when the guy starts the league using a house ball, and all of a sudden, shows up with his own set of equipment and looks like he's been doing it for years (I'm sure he had been too). I think the handicap percentage is just too high, but it would just drive even more people away from bowling or bowling in a league. Unless it's a scratch league, you pretty much just have to put up with this kind of stuff and just try to have fun.

I think the people with the advantage are the beginners/mid-level experienced bowlers. As they begin to get better, the natural assumption is that their scores will increase over the course of the year at a rate faster than a more experienced bowler.

[bowl1820]

Now the 10-pin drop rule is pretty good, one of my leagues here uses it to help keep people from bagging.

For those that don't know about the 10-pin drop rule. This rule say's your average can't drop lower than 10 pins below your entering average.

Example: Say your entering average is 190, this mean's your average won't go below a 180 as far as handicap is figured.
So you bowl bad for several weeks and your average goes to a 175, your handicap will be based on a 180 average.