What do you think constitutes a fair handicap?

[TheSheibs]

So my team has moved into third place and for the past month has had to give every team we face extra pins due to handicap. Since we are good bowlers and have realistic averages, we are able to still beat them even with giving them the extra pins. This shows that if you or your team is actually good, that a handicap should not prevent you from winning.

We had one night were we had to give 103 pins. That was a tough night and we did end up losing because the other team had gotten really lucky. Also the reason I am commenting is due to the match-up my team faces next week. We are bowling the team that has moved into first place with a comfortable three game lead over the team that is now in second place. My team is in third place, two games behind the team in second.

The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Going against, the now, first place team next week we are going to be giving them pins. After looking at what they have done in the past it seems like they have been just winning by 5-50 pins each game. Their averages are in the 130-180 range but they always have people bowling 200+ at least for one game.

This is where I do not like handicaps. because we have a higher average by about 15 pins, we will be giving them pins next week. I think if you are bowling in a league with teams, there should not be any handicap pins given to any team that is in the top 4 places. If the team that is in first place right now were never given the handicap pins, they would not be in first place.

What really irritates me is seeing their scratch pin total for the season and seeing that if places where given based on pin total, my team would actually be in second place if we went by total pin and not by wins or loses. I'll get off my soap box for now so people can read this before it becomes a novel.

[billf]

So you want a handicap league but not for the teams that would be in the first four places? If you took their handicap away chances are good that another set of four teams would take their place....until you took their handicap away and so and so on. In that case, it may as well be a scratch league.
I'm sure this isn't how you meant this to come across but in paragraph three you state how your team narrowly won after getting pins and seem perfectly fine with that. In paragraphs four and five you state how you have to give pins and that seems to be where the problem lies; you want your cake and eat it too.
I'm also curious what your average and handicap is. It should be well over 200 considering you can pick up any spare on any lane with any condition at any location

[J Anderson]

So my team has moved into third place and for the past month has had to give every team we face extra pins due to handicap. Since we are good bowlers and have realistic averages, we are able to still beat them even with giving them the extra pins. This shows that if you or your team is actually good, that a handicap should not prevent you from winning.

We had one night were we had to give 103 pins. That was a tough night and we did end up losing because the other team had gotten really lucky. Also the reason I am commenting is due to the match-up my team faces next week. We are bowling the team that has moved into first place with a comfortable three game lead over the team that is now in second place. My team is in third place, two games behind the team in second.

The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Going against, the now, first place team next week we are going to be giving them pins. After looking at what they have done in the past it seems like they have been just winning by 5-50 pins each game. Their averages are in the 130-180 range but they always have people bowling 200+ at least for one game.

This is where I do not like handicaps. because we have a higher average by about 15 pins, we will be giving them pins next week. I think if you are bowling in a league with teams, there should not be any handicap pins given to any team that is in the top 4 places. If the team that is in first place right now were never given the handicap pins, they would not be in first place.

What really irritates me is seeing their scratch pin total for the season and seeing that if places where given based on pin total, my team would actually be in second place if we went by total pin and not by wins or loses. I'll get off my soap box for now so people can read this before it becomes a novel.

This can't become a novel. Novels are fiction. You are merely relating the facts that influence your opinion of handicaps.

Personally I think handicaps are a necessary evil. I don't have any facts to back this up but I would guess that less than 10% of bowlers would enter a scratch league if they knew that half the bowlers in the league had a higher average than they had. A fair handicap gives everyone a chance to at least be in the running near the end of the season. There are few things worse than a 36 week season where the first place team gets so far ahead that the last ten weeks don't mean anything.

[ursus]

If there wasn't any handicap then there would also only be a few teams in each of the leagues. Handicaps make it where at least some of the lowert averaging teams believe they have a chance to suceed. It helps fill the lanes when otherwise they would probably be empty. Almost every league is below what the USBC recommends of 100% of the top bowler.

[TheSheibs]

For the games we just narrowly won it was due to the other team being given pins. If they hadn't been given the pins then we would have won by a lot more pins. Also I didn't think of the top four teams changing as frequently as your comment suggests. I was thinking that the top four teams would stay in the top four spots regardless of being able to get pins. I bet you could look at any leagues top four teams and while looking at the scratch pin totals for all the teams, you would see that the teams with the most total scratch pins for that league. This kind of leads to the assumption that the top four teams are not receiving any pins from handicap when bowling other teams. Also when you are one of the top four teams in any league, how often do you get any handicap pins? I know my team is in third and the only time we get any pins is when we bowl the team in first or second place. It seems that the top four teams never get any pins for their handicap and are always giving pins to their opponent. I was also talking about using a teams scratch pin totals to determine places, not games won or lost. This thought comes from looking at the standing for the league i'm in and noticing that the team that just moved into first place has the least amount of scratch pins AND handicap pin totals. How the hell does a team with the fewest total pins win more games than anyone else? Are they sandbagging? Could they have improved that much over the course of the season? I mean how the hell does a team with the fewest total pins, both scratch and handicap, end up in first place?!?!?!?!? That is what has caused me to leave the comments that I have.

Also the team in second has the most total pins, both scratch and handicap. My team is in third and has the second most total pins, both scratch and handicap. It is really out of not understanding how this could happen. Seems like there could be something shady going on with that team.

[billf]

I believe you but look at your other post again.. The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Something does sound strange with what you are describing but may I am just misinterpreting it. Is there any chance you can scan and post a standing sheet? Just use marker to redact the peoples names.

[J Anderson]

For the games we just narrowly won it was due to the other team being given pins. If they hadn't been given the pins then we would have won by a lot more pins. Also I didn't think of the top four teams changing as frequently as your comment suggests. I was thinking that the top four teams would stay in the top four spots regardless of being able to get pins. I bet you could look at any leagues top four teams and while looking at the scratch pin totals for all the teams, you would see that the teams with the most total scratch pins for that league. This kind of leads to the assumption that the top four teams are not receiving any pins from handicap when bowling other teams. Also when you are one of the top four teams in any league, how often do you get any handicap pins? I know my team is in third and the only time we get any pins is when we bowl the team in first or second place. It seems that the top four teams never get any pins for their handicap and are always giving pins to their opponent. I was also talking about using a teams scratch pin totals to determine places, not games won or lost. This thought comes from looking at the standing for the league i'm in and noticing that the team that just moved into first place has the least amount of scratch pins AND handicap pin totals. How the hell does a team with the fewest total pins win more games than anyone else? Are they sandbagging? Could they have improved that much over the course of the season? I mean how the hell does a team with the fewest total pins, both scratch and handicap, end up in first place?!?!?!?!? That is what has caused me to leave the comments that I have.

Also the team in second has the most total pins, both scratch and handicap. My team is in third and has the second most total pins, both scratch and handicap. It is really out of not understanding how this could happen. Seems like there could be something shady going on with that team.

There is something called luck. The first scratch league that I bowled in had the following setup: 4 bowlers per pair, A bowls C, B bowls D. After each game A & B move left, C & D move right. There were a number of nights where several games I would get no points despite having the second highest game on the pair. I just had the bad luck of bowling against the guy or girl who had the highest game.

[billf]

I just checked out the standing sheets for my Saturday Night Mixed league this past season. We finished second. We had the highest total scratch pinfall by over 600 pins and highest total with handicap by about 100 pins. Looking at what we shot each week as a team, when we won we won big. When we lost it was usually under 20 pins. Now if the old, fat, disabled guy bowling anchor could have just picked up one more strike and spare per game, we would have only lost 16 points for the season.

[bowl1820]

I believe you but look at your other post again.. The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Something does sound strange with what you are describing but may I am just misinterpreting it. Is there any chance you can scan and post a standing sheet? Just use marker to redact the peoples names.

What doesn't sound right is where he said "we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins"

Then in the next sentence he say's they won 2 games and lost the third. "the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins"

If you lose one game out of three, that means you won two games not three.

[billf]

The first post today TheSheibs said they were given the pins and then in the later post said they gave the other team pins. Not quite sure how that works as you can't get and give at the same time.
I don't usually get many pins, if any and don't really care. What I don't understand is this; if you don't like handicap then just bowl in a scratch league. The girl I bowled against tonight had a 102 handicap. So what? As long as I hit my average the chances of getting beat are greatly reduced. And if my opponent can bowl over average and I can't, then they deserve to win.