10 pin - 10 pin - 10 pin

[PSBA10]

Folks I need some help. No matter what I do I continually leave the 10 pin. Last night in our 6 man team league, I left 4 in the first game, 4 in the second game and 5 in the 3rd game. This is with 2 different balls and many different lines. I played everywhere from piping it down 5 to throwing 18 to 7 or 8. I moved forward, backward, left and right from each line trying to drop the 10 pin. Nothing worked. One of our opponents said that he has never seen anyone pound the pocket as hard as I was doing, and getting "boned" so many times.

Unfortunately this is not an isolated incident. I bowled in our county tournament 2 weeks ago in a different house and left 6-10 pins in a row.

This is getting frustrating. I can make the spares, but if only half of my 10 pin leaves had gone, I would be looking at some very nice series.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

[bowl1820]

I think your opponent answers your question, your pounding the pocket too hard. Ever hear the saying "hit'm light watch'm fight" .
Back off on the ball some, try to keep the pins lower on the deck so they are more likely to sweep standing pins down. It will also help the 6 pin take out the ten and not send it wrapping around it.
Last night we bowled a team with a player that shows too much power is not a good thing. He was throwing a 21-24 mph missile down the lane. The pins exploded and when he hit that certain spot strike. The other 90% of the time it was 10 pins 7s 6-10s 4-7s etc.
If you watched when the ball hit, the pins went up and out (or out on the lane for dead wood). Flying around the heads of the pins, not staying lower to the deck. The 6 pin was blowing straight out to the right , instead of going into the ten.

[bowl1820]

Heres a article that might help also by joe slowinski on watching what the Ball and pins do.
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/...inskifeb10.pdf

[10-in-the-pit]

Good article. I usually make small adjustments to correct taps. With a 6-man team, the oil will move a whole lot faster than I'm used to so I'm sure it is difficult. But with changing lines and balls often, are you giving yourself a chance to make small adjustments off a previous shot or are you changing your shot altogether? I enjoy watching a sold hit with the pins flying back, but percentage wise, I'll stick with my shot when I see the pins moving sideways more to create messengers.

[got_a_300]

Ever hear the saying "hit'm light watch'm fight" .

LOL!!! We always say hit'em thin and watch them spin
but we have 1 lane if you hit light / thin on you will not
carry a strike or the 10 pin on it as the 5 pin is always a
little bit off spot to the left side. You have to hit in the
pocket really extremely high on the headpin to carry a
strike if your right handed and the left handers have to
hit light on it or they will not carry a strike.

The owner say there is nothing he can do to make it set
down on spot closer as it is not off enough to really hurt
anything as it always passes USBC lane inspections.

[PSBA10]

As for the ball changes, this is over the course of 3 games. I have to start with my stronger ball, and as you suggested the 6 man team format moves the oil much faster. I should also note that the lanes are conditioned with a 29 centipoise (viscosity) conditioner which makes one anticipate moves. If I wait till my next frame, I will be number 12 and the lanes will have changed by then. I end the night with my milder ball.

[JAnderson]

you will not carry a strike or the 10 pin on it as the 5 pin is always a little bit off spot to the left side

The 5-pin being off-spot will not impact carry on the 10-pin. 8-pin and 9-pin, yes, and potentially the 7-pin on light hits, but not the 10-pin. The 5-pin doesn't hit the 10-pin or hit another pin that in turn hits the 10-pin. At least, not on anything resembling a normal pocket hit.

Putting aside light hits and hits that are not in the correct position in the pocket (too high, too light), there's no single reason for leaving 10-pins (or 7-pins for the left handed bowlers), but the largest reason is too much deflection. When the ball hits the head pin and deflects too much, the ball hits more of the face of the the 3-pin which then goes straight back hitting the inside of the 6-pin which goes in front of the 10-pin instead of hitting it. Usually (usually!) if you watch the ball exit the pin deck on this type of hit, the ball goes off the pin deck right over the top of the 9-pin spot instead of between the 5-pin and 9-pin spots.

That may seem simple enough, but the next question should be, what causes the ball to over-deflect on one shot leaving the 10-pin and deflect just right on the next shot, taking out the 10-pin?

This is where it gets complicated, not just knowing the possible reasons, but being able to both accurately identify what is happening and being able to make the correct adjustment.

Some of the reasons the ball will over deflect:
1. ball is too light (weight) and hits the head pin too thin
2. not enough entry angle
3. too much entry angle
4. the ball is skidding when it hits the head pin
5. ball rolls out/burns up

#1 should be easy enough to understand. A 10-pound ball is going to deflect when it hits the head pin more than a 12-pound ball. A 12-pound ball is going to deflect more than a 14-pound ball. And so on.

#2 - how to explain entry angle? It is definitely easier to visualize, but consider two hooking balls. The first ball is almost in the gutter 40 feet down the lane before it hooks into the pocket. The second ball is much closer to the head pin - say directly in front of the 3-pin - 40 feet down the lane before it makes a gentle hook into the pocket. Generally speaking, the first has more entry angle - enters the pocket at a steeper angle - than the second. If both balls deflect the same amount, because of the difference in direction the second ball will deflect more into the face of the 3-pin than the first.

#3 works on the same principle as #2. What looks like a perfect pocket hit can actually be the ball hitting the 1-pin and the 3-pin at the same time (or close to it) because the entry angle is steep. In that case, the ball doesn't deflect off the head pin and knocks the 3 straight back. Ok, ok, so that's not over deflection, but no deflection.

#4 is harder to understand because of its complexity in both understanding the physics in play as well as all of the different causes.

skidding - Any ball not rolling is skidding. Any ball that is still hooking is skidding. A ball that is tilted is not rolling, but skidding. A ball can hit the head pin at the same time the point of contact between the ball and the lane has oil on it (or the lane at that point has oil on it).

A good understanding of the skid-hook-roll (for bowlers that hook the ball) phases of the ball are critical to understanding this point. It's also critical to understand that a ball moving from right to left on the lane is not necessarily hooking.

Having said that, we ideally want the ball in the roll phase when it hits the pins. Not so much so that the ball has no "drive" or "energy" left. We want the ball to enter the roll phase as close to the pins as possible.

#5 most of us can see when a ball just doesn't have any energy when it hits the pins. There's no "drive" ... no friction between the ball and the lane because the ball has no revs (for bowlers that hook the ball) left on it. These balls tend to over-deflect as well. That's not to say this type of ball (or bowlers that throw it straight) can't strike, but the position in the pocket and the entry angle have to be more to compensate.


I've not posted any adjustments. There are many and no single silver bullet that will fix them all because, truth be told, add to the above reasons for leaving a 10-pin potentially off-spot pins, oil on the pin deck, pins with soft spots or are off-weight, etc. etc., leaving a 10-pin is usually a combination of factors. So making the right adjustment is identifying which could be in play and making the corrective adjustment.

I'm going to stop there. I believe a thorough understanding of pin carry could easily fill a 100-page book. I have a feeling only the most die-hard will read even this post all the way through

[bowl1820]

I'm going to stop there. I believe a thorough understanding of pin carry could easily fill a 100-page book. I have a feeling only the most die-hard will read even this post all the way through

All right I'm a die-hard! Read it all, I agree.

We want the ball to enter the roll phase as close to the pins as possible

that reminds me of back when I first learned that. If you did it just right , your tilt dropped and the ball went into a roll just as it got to the pocket. You could tell by the sound it made hitting the pins, theres was a sharp crack sound.

Imo It was easier to see the ball motion in regards to tilt and rotation back in the urethane era. which gave you some good feed back on your shot. Today the balls transition through the motion phases so fast, its harder to follow them.

[striker12]

ok if you got a 10pin problem lighten up on the ball soo you can get some pin carry but one thing im almost the same way as you but i dontleave up many 10 i most leave up eather 6-4 or 3 but i throw the ball at 16-17mph fast but with perfect revs that im able to keep the pins low i just get some bad breaks once and awhile and when people tell me to slow down thats when i start leaving those 10 pins tellyou this its easyer to hit the 6-4 and 3 pins then it is those 10 pins cause those pins i can hook the ball into it the 10 its alittle harder and i probly miss left alot...

one other thing if your slow the ball down and still leaving up 10 pins do yo0ur approach on your strike shot your next frame and do a little lift on the ball it brings the speed down just a little moreand gives alittle kick on the backend and will keep the pins low and get u good messengers i do that to try to get my 300 but i keep messing up in the 9th and 10th frames

[The Mayor]

Great Post J!!