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Thread: PAP Identification Method (& Terminology)

  1. #21
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    P.S. does anyone know what the criteria is for uploading graphic files. The picture of my shoes worked fine, but I couldn't upload the Ball images I made so I had to link to them. When I tried to upload, it showed a red exclamation to the right of the file info.
    To post a inline picture Click on "go Advance" look at the formatting icons click on the one that looks like a tree in box (next to the film strip looking one.) thats the "insert image" a dialog will open click on "from URL", paste the link to your picture in the box, unclick the retrieve box.then click ok. this will insert the link in the post.

    or type this code manually in.
    [img]your link here[/img]

    Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798

    "Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowl1820 View Post
    To post a inline picture Click on "go Advance" look at the formatting icons click on the one that looks like a tree in box (next to the film strip looking one.) thats the "insert image" a dialog will open click on "from URL", paste the link to your picture in the box, unclick the retrieve box.then click ok. this will insert the link in the post.

    or type this code manually in.
    [img]your link here[/img]
    Thank You

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    The useful difference isn't in identifying the PAP relative to the center of the grip.
    Locating the pap relative to the grip center is useful in that you need it to locate the holes to drill them.

    The different way of identifying the PAP is a break even deal.

    It's after that step that it become more useful.
    Here is the grid I would use to Identify an unknown PAP.
    You mean to get the pap location measurements from a drilled ball where the PAP has been located.



    You draw the line directly from the grip center thru the PAP down to the equator.
    Okay simple enough, Thats the red line going from the grip center to the pap right?

    Measure from the grip center to the PAP, Measure from the bottom left corner to the intersection with the vertical line thru the PAP.
    The bottom left corner of what? where the two yellow lines meet on the lower left?

    The problem here will be projecting the measurement back on a undrilled ball to locate the grip in relation to the pap.


    The PAP is identified by 4 3/4 down and 1 over using the down and over system.
    In my system it's 4 13/16 latitude and 1 1/16 longitude. Instead of the equator being 0 degrees, the north pole is 0 degrees.
    So far both systems have done the same thing with the same amount of effort, and results. Much like measuring in English vs Metric.
    Next I'll take a drilled dual angle layout convert the numbers into my system.
    That will be a feat, because you've changed the way the VAL is oriented (the red line running from left to right, is no longer perpendicular to the midline) which would change how the dual angle system works . Also I have a feeling driller will have to go back to using a ball compass to swing arcs around the ball.

    As a point of reference here's the current way of locating the pap and some of the terms for the different lines.
    Last edited by bowl1820; 07-07-2012 at 11:19 PM.

    Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798

    "Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker

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    Just so I'm clear, this is what you mean. On how to locate the pap.


    If so, then instead of using just 2 measurements, you are now using three measurements 6 3/4" , 4 3/4" and 1".

    It would be simpler to just use a angle and a distance, once you had the centerline and midline. Like say 5 degrees by 4 3/4". and forget the 6 3/4"
    Last edited by bowl1820; 07-08-2012 at 12:05 AM.

    Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798

    "Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker

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    I can't agree with your description of "my way" because when you flatten it into a plane there are distortions you aren't considering. and you've mislabeled the length from the mid grip, to the pap.
    You're using the down and over coordinates. Just a minor difference.

    Actually when it comes to working backwards from the pap to the grip, the 6 3/4 is the last thing you want to forget.

    I'll work up an example of projecting back from the pap to the grip center on an undrilled ball.

    Go back and check the message you quoted before I submitted an edited version. It's only a minor change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    I can't agree with your description of "my way" because when you flatten it into a plane there are distortions you aren't considering. and you've mislabeled the length from the mid grip, to the pap.
    Okay it should have said 4 13/16 latitude?? what kind of measurement is this? if it's not inches what is it?

    You're using the down and over coordinates. Just a minor difference.

    Actually when it comes to working backwards from the pap to the grip, the 6 3/4 is the last thing you want to forget.

    I'll work up an example of projecting back from the pap to the grip center on an undrilled ball.

    Go back and check the message you quoted before I submitted an edited version. It's only a minor change.

    Before making a example of how to project it back, make a clear example of how you want to locate the pap in the first place.
    Okay I'll use the grid you made, Since my pic distorted it.


    You said.
    You draw the line directly from the grip center thru the PAP down to the equator.
    That would be Line "A" (The Yellow highlighted line)

    Measure from the grip center to the PAP,
    Okay on line "A" you measure 4 3/4" (4 13/16 latitude??) from the grip center to the pap.

    Before
    Measure from the bottom left corner to the intersection with the vertical line thru the PAP.
    and Now
    Measure from the bottom right corner to the intersection with the vertical line thru the PAP.
    Okay you changed this part.
    Mark the corner your talking about.

    Before
    In my system it's 4 13/16 latitude and 1 1/16 longitude. Instead of the equator being 0 degrees, the north pole is 0 degrees.
    and Now
    In my system it's 4 13/16 latitude and 5 11/16 longitude. Instead of the equator being 0 degrees, the north pole is 0 degrees.
    Okay you changed this part I see also.

    --------
    Here make it easy
    Use your picture like this

    and draw the two line you mean on it.
    The "Measure from the grip center to the PAP"
    and the
    "Measure from the bottom right corner to the intersection with the vertical line thru the PAP"
    lines
    Last edited by bowl1820; 07-08-2012 at 10:00 AM.

    Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798

    "Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker

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    I'm posting this as a reference, this would be how you layout a ball.
    With a Dual Angle layout and the standard PAP measurement system


    Layout" 45 X 3" X 30
    1-Draw a reference line from Pin to Mass Bias

    2-Draw a line at a 45 degree angle to the reference line from the Pin.

    3-Now on that line measure 3" from the pin and mark that spot, that's the PAP

    4-Next draw a line a 30 degree angle to the Pin to PAP line, this is the VAL. (Vertical Axis Line)

    Now we are going to project back from the PAP to the center of the grip
    5- From the PAP measure down 1" on the Vertical Axis Line (VAL).

    6- Draw a perpendicular line from that point (That's the called the Midline, it's A line that's 90 deg. to the VAL)

    7- Now measure over 4 3/4" from the VAL and make a mark. That's where the center line of your grip is.


    Now you only had to draw four lines to layout the ball all the way over to the grip center.
    (Using only a Pro-sect and a yellow pencil.)

    Now your new system would have to simplify that.
    Last edited by bowl1820; 07-08-2012 at 12:47 PM. Reason: typo 40 should have been 45

    Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798

    "Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker

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    It's five lines if you include the Grip Line which you have to draw.
    Last edited by Mike White; 07-08-2012 at 12:53 PM.

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    When I was laying out balls for myself 20 plus years ago I only had access to a quarter scale. All of the measurements were in inches, no angles. Give me a chance to upgrade my method to use the tools currently available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    When I was laying out balls for myself 20 plus years ago I only had access to a quarter scale. All of the measurements were in inches, no angles. Give me a chance to upgrade my method to use the tools currently available.
    Yes it's five lines counting the grip center line.

    A Pro-Sect is a quarter scale. no need to upgrade.


    and here's a pic of the ball with the layout on it.
    Last edited by bowl1820; 07-08-2012 at 01:21 PM.

    Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798

    "Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker

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