PAP Identification Method (& Terminology)

[Mike White]

Upgrade in the sense. since the ability to measure angles directly now exists, I will make more use of that feature.

[bowl1820]

Upgrade in the sense. since the ability to measure angles directly now exists, I will make more use of that feature.

While I don't have a 20 year old quarter scale. I believe they could do angles back then. Not that they, used it. They didn't have the "Dual angle Method" back then, that's new.

I would suggest finding out how ball's are layed out now and the methods used, Before trying to rewrite the system.

Here's some starting places links
Dual Angle Layout Technique (Most have been going to this method)
http://www.morichbowling.com/Educati...gleSeminar.htm

Motion Enhancement Guide (Pro Sect User Guide)
http://www.turbogrips.com/downloads/...tUserGuide.pdf

A Storm method Lightning Strike PSA Layout Guide
http://www.stormbowling.com/drill-sp...ing_Stikes.pdf

[Mike White]

http://mikew1961.linkpc.net/images/FindPAP1.png

The yellow line is a reference line.
The red line is to be measured in inches.
The blue line is to be measured in degrees.

To identify a PAP you have a distance and angle.
Distance is from Grip Center to PAP
Angle is from PAP to Grip Line.

While we are at this point another piece of information would be handy to know.

http://mikew1961.linkpc.net/images/FindPAP2.png

This is the angle between what you call the VAL and the line from the PAP to the Grip Center.
It's not needed to identify the PAP, but it will be useful to know.
Lets call that the Grip to VAL angle for now.

On this ball the Grip Center to PAP is 4 11/16 inches.
The PAP to Grip Line is 75 degrees.
And note that the Grip to VAL angle is 95 degrees (for future use)

[Mike White]

While I don't have a 20 year old quarter scale. I believe they could do angles back then. Not that they, used it. They didn't have the "Dual angle Method" back then, that's new.

I would suggest finding out how ball's are layed out now and the methods used, Before trying to rewrite the system.

Here's some starting places links
Dual Angle Layout Technique (Most have been going to this method)
http://www.morichbowling.com/Educati...gleSeminar.htm

Motion Enhancement Guide (Pro Sect User Guide)
http://www.turbogrips.com/downloads/...tUserGuide.pdf

A Storm method Lightning Strike PSA Layout Guide
http://www.stormbowling.com/drill-sp...ing_Stikes.pdf

You could do angles, but you had to convert angles to inches and measure the right area. There wasn't an angle scale on the tool.

I understand how layouts are implemented, that didn't take long. It took about 2 minutes to figure out what the 3 values in a dual angle layout controlled.
That is different than knowing how the 3 values affect the ball while it's on the lane. Actual bowling will teach me that. So far I'm waiting on my replacement shoes.

[bowl1820]

The yellow line is a reference line.
The red line is to be measured in inches.
The blue line is to be measured in degrees.

To identify a PAP you have a distance and angle.
Distance is from Grip Center to PAP
Angle is from PAP to Grip Line.

Okay you've located the PAP in relation to the grip center. Is this "The PAP to Grip Line is 75 degrees" angle?.

While we are at this point another piece of information would be handy to know.



This is the angle between what you call the VAL and the line from the PAP to the Grip Center.
It's not needed to identify the PAP, but it will be useful to know.
Lets call that the Grip to VAL angle for now.

And is this second blue angle line the "Grip to VAL angle is 95 degrees"?

On this ball the Grip Center to PAP is 4 11/16 inches.
The PAP to Grip Line is 75 degrees.
And note that the Grip to VAL angle is 95 degrees (for future use)

[bowl1820]

Okay assuming the PAP location using the standard method is
4 3/4" over and 1" up

when compared to your method (using 75 X 4 11/16 " X 95) it does seem to locate the same points.

When projecting back from the pap to the center of the grip. I just tried it on a ball.

But it offers no advantage over the standard method.

But it has complicated the process more.

You now need 3 measurements 1 distance and 2 angles and Those two angles will be different for everyone.

Also about the second angle (the 95) to get that angle off a already drilled balled. you would still need to find the vertical axis line (the 4 3/4" meas. on the midline) to have a line to measure that angle from.

And if you have to do that, you could have just used the standard method and been done with it.

Using the standard method you only need 2 measurements and those two angles using the current method are always the same for everyone (90 degrees)

Now this is just looking at it from the stand point of using it with the dual angle layout method.

There maybe other problems with it also, when used with the other layout methods that can be used. I don't know off hand.

[bowl1820]

It would be nice if some of you lurkers would offer a second opinion here. We could use another pair of eyes.

[J Anderson]

It would be nice if some of you lurkers would offer a second opinion here. We could use another pair of eyes.

If I really understood how balls are laid out I would. As it is, I'm happy if the ball fits my hand well. That reminds me I need to get Tim or Chris to change the ring finger grip on my Hyroad.

[Mike White]

Okay assuming the PAP location using the standard method is
4 3/4" over and 1" up

when compared to your method (using 75 X 4 11/16 " X 95) it does seem to locate the same points.

When projecting back from the pap to the center of the grip. I just tried it on a ball.

But it offers no advantage over the standard method.

But it has complicated the process more.

You now need 3 measurements 1 distance and 2 angles and Those two angles will be different for everyone.

Also about the second angle (the 95) to get that angle off a already drilled balled. you would still need to find the vertical axis line (the 4 3/4" meas. on the midline) to have a line to measure that angle from.

And if you have to do that, you could have just used the standard method and been done with it.

Using the standard method you only need 2 measurements and those two angles using the current method are always the same for everyone (90 degrees)

Now this is just looking at it from the stand point of using it with the dual angle layout method.

There maybe other problems with it also, when used with the other layout methods that can be used. I don't know off hand.

Why is it every time I pause, you assume I'm done and thats all there it to it. We're still making the cake, you need to wait on the frosting.

About the vertical axis line, one end of that line is 4 3/4" down for some people, but the other end of that line is 6 3/4" from the grip center on a line that goes thru the fingers. And thats the same dimensions for everyone.

BTW how do you find the Vertical axis line for someone with X down and 0 over?

I don't need three measurements to find the PAP. only 2. 1 distance, and one angle. The other angle measurement is useful later.

To me each time you have a choice between two apparently equal options you should select the option that provides the most useful information.

Again wait until the cake is done cooking before you decide if it tastes bad.

[bowl1820]

Okay I'll start from scratch:
First here's how you measure the location of a bowler's PAP on the ball they are using.
This is where you get the PAP measurements from in the first place.



First you find the PAP on the ball and put a mark there.
(I'm not going into how you find the PAP, you can see it here http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/ind...ive_Axis_Point)

next you draw a center line on the grip.

next find the middle of the grip.

next draw a line that's perpendicular to the center line from the middle of the grip mark, this is called the Midline (also known as the Horizontal Axis Line "HAL").

Next draw a line from where you marked the PAP on the ball that is perpendicular to the Midline. This line is called the Vertical Axis Line "VAL".
(A person's PAP is always on the Vertical Axis Line )

Now we measure

On the Midline measure from the Middle of the grip to where the "VAL" touches the Midline. In the Example above that is 4 3/4" this is the Horizontal measurement.

Next measure up from the Midline to the PAP mark on the "VAL". In the Example above that is 1" this is the Vertical measurement.

You've now have the PAP coordinates which are 4 3/4" across 1" up.