Ok how about if I make this clear.Originally Posted by bowl1820
The only different between a 45 x 3 x 30 layout, and a 45 x 3 x 40 layout is one is just turned further along it's axis.
It is over, over and up or over and down depending on where you PAP is actually located. Mine is 5.5" straight across, my brothers is 5.75" over and .25" up, another friends is 5" over and .5" down.
The VAL line runs parallel to your center grip line so how is that the weak link? Your method still runs off the center grip line. Then somehow locates the PAP and does something from there. Most people still don't understand what your trying to say and have to keep guessing to get very little in an explanation in return.
First your saying it is about having the pin in reference to the fingers be the same for different spans because that is where torque is applied, then you say yours uses the same info as the dual angle but doesn't use the over up systems which still doesn't really add up. If you use my pap of 5.5" straight across and 5 different spans you still have the identical layout for each bowler based off their PAP not where there finger holes are located.
How about when you get time you make a vid that shows what your trying to type. Maybe thats the problem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtEfzOzcbiE
Ok how about if I make this clear.
The only different between a 45 x 3 x 30 layout, and a 45 x 3 x 40 layout is one is just turned further along it's axis.
"Ok how about if I make this clear.
The only different between a 45 x 3 x 30 layout, and a 45 x 3 x 40 layout is one is just turned further along it's axis."
And your point? Changing the span ever so slightly slowly rotates the core and its starting position of instability at release. 45 x 3 x 41, 45 x 3 x 43, 45 x 3 x 45 is slightly rotating the placement of the pin and mb to the bowlers PAP which is where the ball will be at release. All three are different by slight degrees and the further you keep going the more noticeable the difference in reaction.
Bowling ball and ufo!
Mike,,, just a thought!! LET IT GO!!! As long as your sure about your ideas,,,, then be happy,,, life is short, and in the grand scheme of things, 99.3 percent of all United States citizens, (that bowl),,, we just don't care! The last time I have seen so many mathematical formulas, and symbols, was when when I was abducted and laying on my back in a observation medical room, on board a UFO!! Believe me Mike, They have nothing OUT there on you and your geometry!!
I noticed while being probed, with various instruments, a black board with alien mathematical equations!
Much more simple then yours, and easier to understand! They were on a power system that uses Ding-Dongs to power a large metropolitan city!! In the design of the things,,,, why not put your genius to work on something that will help humanity! Sure this is a Bowling Site, but enough!! We all agree with you Mike! Take ten deep breaths, and get some sleep….. Your absolutely probably correct!!
Do you feel better now!!! LOL…… Mike,, I think I am very impressed with your Theory, or hypothesis what ever the case may be,,,,most of us on this site, are clueless to the formulas involved in the drilling of a ball! It was fun looking at all the math for a while, but just like my experience on the UFO, it gets painful after a period of time! Please Stop!! Not to change the subject, but what did you think of that All-Star-Game!! Lol… (J)
That is not the same thing!!
In your picture you rotated the whole ball (Layout and fingers) around the axis till the finger holes lined up.
In the layout change picture (45 x 3 x 30 layout to a 45 x 3 x 40) . You left fingers in the same place and just moved the pin and PSA. you changed the angles that's what moved the Pin and PSA around the axis and That's is not the same thing.
Last edited by bowl1820; 07-13-2012 at 12:40 AM.
Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798
"Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker
What I was showing you is what changes the different layout makes.
Moving the PAP from one point to the other is doing what you said didn't matter. Because it's just further along in it's rotation.
Logically if "further along in it's rotation" doesn't matter, then the 3rd parameter wouldn't matter.
You just refuse to see it, your comparing apples to oranges and saying they are the same thing. When clearly it is not!
in the 2nd pic. When you changed the 30 degree's to 40 degree's, that moved the pin closer to the fingers and the PSA (MB) farther from the thumb.
In other words you changed the angle of the Reference line to the center line of the grip.
In the first picture all you did was rotate the ball on the axis the pap marks. And that doesn't move the pin closer to the fingers and the PSA (MB) farther from the thumb or change the angle of the Reference line to the center line of the grip.
First pic.
Second pic.
Last edited by bowl1820; 07-13-2012 at 04:12 PM.
Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798
"Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker
I wanted to give a couple of thoughts on ball motion and layouts to deal with the issue of the VAL angle. This will be long, math-y, and hopefully helpful.
As far as how the dynamics of the core affect bowling ball motion, there are three major components:
1) Differential Ratio (Intermediate Differential/Total Differential)
2) Total Differential
3) RG of the PAP
[Background for those who do not know the definition of Intermediate and Total Differentials: The bowling ball has 3 "principal axes" which are called the x-, y-, and z-axes. The x-axis is the lowest RG axis of the ball (marked by the Pin prior to drilling). The y-axis is the highest RG axis (marked by the Mass Bias/Preferred Spin Axis prior to drilling). These two are 90 degrees from one another, or 6 3/4" on the surface of the ball. The z-axis is simply the axis that is 90 degrees from BOTH the x- and y-axes- it doesn't have a particularly useful RG value.
The Total Differential is the High RG (y-axis/MB/PSA) minus the Low RG (x-axis/Pin). That is, if the Low RG value is 2.500" and the High RG value is 2.550", the Total Differential is .050". The Intermediate is similar: it is the High RG minus the Intermediate Axis (z-axis) RG value. That is, if the High RG is 2.550" and the Intermediate Axis RG is 2.530", then the Intermediate Differential is .020". The Differential Ratio on this ball would be Intermediate Diff./Total Diff. = .020"/.050" = .4.]
(1) The Differential Ratio has a direct effect on the SHAPE of the shot. Technically, we would say that it affects the hook-zone or the distance between the first and second transitions (skid-to-hook and hook-to-roll). Not-so-technically, what this means is that is makes the hook smooth (banana shaped) or sharp (hockey stick shaped). The lower the diff. ratio, the smoother the hook (on symmetrical balls, the undrilled diff. ratio is 0, which is why they tend to be very smooth). The higher the diff. ratio, the sharper the hook (as on many high-end bowling balls).
(2) The Total Differential affects the total amount of potential track flare a ball has. The larger the total diff., the more flare is possible. More flare, for those who don't know, means that the ball rolls over fresh coverstock on each rotation, which makes the ball hook more. (Low flare has the ball roll over the same track over and over, so oil is already on the ball). This is kind of like tread on a tire. If the tread can't shed water while driving on a slippery road, the car will hydroplane (if it can, it won't). For the ball, if the ball doesn't flare much, it will continue to skid (if it can, it will hook).
(3) Radius of Gyration (RG) is just a measure of how easy it is to rotate something. The lower the RG, the easier it is to rotate the object around that axis. This is why it is easier to rotate a pole through its ends (Low RG Axis!) than spin it like a helicopter blade (High RG Axis!). On a bowling ball, the only axis you will rotate the ball on is the PAP, so that is the only RG that matters.
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There are also TWO components of the Dual Angle Method which affect ball motion:
1) The Drilling Angle (the angle from the Pin-to-PSA line to the Pin-to-PAP line)
2) The Pin-to-PAP distance
(1) The Drilling Angle technically affects the length of the first transition (skid-to-hook). The lowest drilling angle (10 degrees) causes the ball to start hooking the earliest. The highest drilling angle (90 degrees) causes the ball to delay, starting it's hook later.
(2) The Pin-to-PAP distance largely affect the amount of potential flare, much like the Total Differential. On symmetrical balls (balls with intermediate differentials less than .007"), the lowest flaring pin-to-PAP distances are less than 2 1/2" and more than 4 1/2". The highest flaring pin-to-PAP distances are 3-4", with 3 3/8" flaring the most. For asymmetrical balls (intermediate diff. greater than .007"), this is different. The lowest flaring positions are less than 2 1/2" and more than 5 1/2". Between these two (from 2 1/2" up to 5 1/2"), the flare continues to increase in most cases. That means the highest flaring position isn't 3 3/8", but more like 5".
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Finally, the VAL Angle. The VAL Angle is the third component of the Dual Angle Method (Drilling Angle x Pin-to-PAP distance x VAL Angle). This angle simply rotates the pin-to-PSA line around the PAP like a pivot. The effect, however, isn't in its relationship to the VAL, but in the way it changes the dynamics of the core (specifically, the Diff. Ratio and Total Diff.). Follow me here:
[Background about the effect of drilling a hole: Drilling a hole anywhere will increase the RG of that axis. That's it, really.]
Smaller VAL angles (no less than 20 degrees) cause the Pin to be higher and the MB/PSA to be closer to the gripping holes. So, the Low RG value is not raised much, but the High RG value is. So, our Diff. Ratio and Total Diff. both increase- i.e., we get a sharper, stronger hook. Larger VAL angles (no more than 70 degrees) cause the Pin to belower and the MB/PSA to be further from the gripping holes. So, the Low RG value is raised some, but the High RG value is not. So, we get a lower Diff. Ratio and lower Total Diff- i.e., a smoother and weaker hook.
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SO, IN CONCLUSION:
The VAL Angle matters a whole lot. But really, it is not a clear-cut "objective" component like the Drilling Angle and Pin-to-PAP Distance. Spans, holes sizes, and hole pitches will play a part in "how" and "how much" the VAL Angle changes the Diff. Ratio and Total Diff. Therefore, it's really not worth trying to make it slightly more accurate.
As Mo Pinel might say: "We're not trying to get this thing into orbit!"
So you're saying "Yes it's crap, but it doesn't stink that bad". ???
P.S. I'm reading the message closely to gather as many nuggets as possible. Thanks for all the info.
Last edited by Mike White; 07-15-2012 at 12:59 PM.
The VAL line and the center grip line crosses, so how it that parallel?
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