PAP Identification Method (& Terminology)

[bowl1820]

AH, the parallel postulate of Euclid and non-Euclidean geometry now clash.

For those that don't know:
the parallel postulate of Euclid: Two lines are parallel if they are both perpendicular to a third line.

[Mike White]

You just refuse to see it, your comparing apples to oranges and saying they are the same thing. When clearly it is not!

in the 2nd pic. When you changed the 30 degree's to 40 degree's, that moved the pin closer to the fingers and the PSA (MB) farther from the thumb.

In other words you changed the angle of the Reference line to the center line of the grip.

In the first picture all you did was rotate the ball on the axis the pap marks. And that doesn't move the pin closer to the fingers and the PSA (MB) farther from the thumb or change the angle of the Reference line to the center line of the grip.

First pic.


Second pic.

The first pic represents two different people who are using the same layout. After the layout is applied using the Over and Up method, the ball in centered on the PAP, then the fingers are rotated to 3 o'clock representing the point of release.

At said point of release, the PIN is located differently for each bowler, even though they used the same layout values.

The second picture represents one bowler having two different layouts. Since the PAP and fingers are already aligned I didn't feel the need to center the ball on the PAP, and rotate the fingers to 3 o'clock. What I was showing was that the difference in two layouts for one bowler is similar to the difference of one layout for two bowlers.

If the one bowler gets a different shape roll from two different layouts, then those two bowlers will get different shape rolls using the same layout.

I thought the whole idea was each layout had a unique shape roll, independent of the Span, Over, and Up values of the bowler.

[Mike White]

AH, the parallel postulate of Euclid and non-Euclidean geometry now clash.

For those that don't know:
the parallel postulate of Euclid: Two lines are parallel if they are both perpendicular to a third line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_(geometry)

"On the spherical plane there is no such thing as a parallel line."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_geometry

"Spherical geometry obeys two of Euclid's postulates: the second postulate ("to produce [extend] a finite straight line continuously in a straight line") and the fourth postulate ("that all right angles are equal to one another"). However, it violates the other three: contrary to the first postulate, there is not a unique shortest route between any two points (antipodal points such as the north and south poles on a spherical globe are counterexamples); contrary to the third postulate, a sphere does not contain circles of arbitrarily great radius; and contrary to the fifth (parallel) postulate, there is no point through which a line can be drawn that never intersects a given line.[5]"

[bowl1820]

The first pic represents two different people who are using the same layout. After the layout is applied using the Over and Up method, the ball in centered on the PAP, then the fingers are rotated to 3 o'clock representing the point of release.

I agree that's what did in the first picture.

At said point of release, the PIN is located differently for each bowler, even though they used the same layout values.

Yes, the pin visually appears in a different place as doe's the MB in the first pic. But the thing is the angle of the core to the Axis(PAP) hasn't changed and the location of the MB hasn't changed.The pin didn't get closer to the fingers, the MB didn't get farther from the thumb. That's not going to mean the ball's will react different.

In the pic. where you changed the angle used in the layout. While the angle of the core to the pin hasn't changed, you moved the pin closer the fingers (approx. a 1/2") and the MB farther away from the thumb (approx. 1"). using your own line drawn from the pap to the fingers, the pin has got closer to it. Now that will change how it reacts.

[bowl1820]

As for this thread it's going to go nowhere, it's not going to change how companies, pro shops on they measure paps or layout balls.

So the whole point is moot.

[kidlost2000]

In the end you have come up with your own method for laying out bowling balls that will be different and have different reactions from person to person.

As mentioned elsewhere by an individual who put it best

"After reviewing the referenced thread, I have a fundamental observation, and then a question or two.

It seems to me that Mr. White is basing his opinion on his findings that the length of a bowlers span changes the relation of the pap to the drilling holes, and thusly, must change the dual angle drilling effect for each individual span length.

To me, it appears that Mr. White must think that the pap location is dependent on the span length, but in actuality, span length and pap location are NOT related this way.

Pap location is predicated off each individuals grip center location, such that the pap in relation to the drilled holes is irrelevant in each case.

What builds the balls reaction is the pin location and mass bias location in relation to the individuals pap and track area. Span length plays absolutely no part in the equation, and is therefore irrelevant. This fact makes the difference in the relation between the pap and the drilled hole locations irrelevant as well.

The pap coordinates are important, and will be concrete in their nature, just as the track area. The drilled holes are ambiguous to the location of the pap and track area, and will differ from bowler to bowler, and thusly cannot be considered a constant on which you could base a drilling system that would give accurate results from bowler to bowler.

My question is: Am I correct in my observation of Mr. Whites premise, or am I missing the entire point of it?"

This is some of what others are trying to explain in reference to span, pin/core placement, and the bowlers pap.

[MICHAEL]

in the end you have come up with your own method for laying out bowling balls that will be different and have different reactions from person to person.

As mentioned elsewhere by an individual who put it best

"after reviewing the referenced thread, i have a fundamental observation, and then a question or two.

It seems to me that mr. White is basing his opinion on his findings that the length of a bowlers span changes the relation of the pap to the drilling holes, and thusly, must change the dual angle drilling effect for each individual span length.

To me, it appears that mr. White must think that the pap location is dependent on the span length, but in actuality, span length and pap location are not related this way.

Pap location is predicated off each individuals grip center location, such that the pap in relation to the drilled holes is irrelevant in each case.

What builds the balls reaction is the pin location and mass bias location in relation to the individuals pap and track area. Span length plays absolutely no part in the equation, and is therefore irrelevant. This fact makes the difference in the relation between the pap and the drilled hole locations irrelevant as well.

The pap coordinates are important, and will be concrete in their nature, just as the track area. The drilled holes are ambiguous to the location of the pap and track area, and will differ from bowler to bowler, and thusly cannot be considered a constant on which you could base a drilling system that would give accurate results from bowler to bowler.

My question is: Am i correct in my observation of mr. Whites premise, or am i missing the entire point of it?"

this is some of what others are trying to explain in reference to span, pin/core placement, and the bowlers pap.

the end !!! Lol WE hope,,, I can't help but go back and keep reading the posts EVEN,,,,, I was NOT a Math Major in College!! PLEASE STOP!! I am addicted to PAP, and it might as well be GREEK!!! Please in the name of humanity STOP! I need to get on with my life, and with this discussion of PAP,,,, HOW CAN I?????

[billf]

Michael, calm down. Understanding ball reaction and how drilling affects that reaction will only enhance your bowling. Knowledge is power, as you know my friend, so suck it up and learn some more

[martin]

i still don't know any crap about my PAP.. lol..

[bowl1820]

Well I'm going to follow Mo Pinel example and lock this thread

Mo Pinel: As is my prerogative, I am locking this thread, as continuing this discussion is pointless.

you can read MO's and others thoughts on this Here:
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6245