Aslan's Scores (of the non-lady kind)

[Aslan]

Two points:

1. If your "progression" only works on fresh conditions (sometimes), wouldn't it be beneficial for you to learn to make other kinds of adjustments?

I wouldn't phrase it that way...I'd phrase it this way:

Could a PBA event be held on open bowling conditions on a random Saturday afternoon at a random center where the center hadn't oiled in 24 hours and customers had been throwing plastic house balls on it? If not...and I'd hazard the answer is "no"...why is that and what is the answer to that problem?

I realize I'm not in the PBA...but the problem trickles downward and essentially ruins the "sport" of bowling. It's just too pattern dependent. And if people can manipulate that pattern by not oiling, oiling wrong, or by having kids throwing plastic balls all over the place...then you don't have a repeatable condition to apply your knowledge to...which means every day is "bowling blind". I realize that plays into your "Rob's chaos theory"...but if your theory is true...then bowling is truly doomed for the many reasons I've listed before.

2. Until you finally accept that carry down has little to no affect on modern reactive resin bowling balls, you will not get to where you want to be.

Like I said before...I trust your data...but your data was not comprehensive enough.

Does carry down exist after one bowler, bowling on one lane, 10 games, with a reactive ball, throwing only strike shots? No.
Does carry down exist after a 2 v 2 league, only reactive resin balls, 3 games, probably not.
Does carry down exist after a 3 v 3 league, only reactive resin balls, 3 games, maybe...maybe not.
Does carry down exist after a 4 v 4 league, reactive resin + spare balls, 3 games...probably...a little.
Does carry down exist if 3 of those bowlers above are lefties? Maybe not.
Does carry down exist if 3 of those bowlers above are throwing urethane? Probably.
Etc... Etc... Etc...

It's simple physics. Reactive resin is going to "carry down" a small amount of oil and push around a small amount of oil. They are going to "suck up" a small amount as well. Urethane and plastic are going to push around and carry down much more. Polished/Pearls are going to push and carry down more than sanded/matte/solids...to some degree.

How do you account for all these variables in your testing? How can you say definitively that I'm not saying carry down when I'm watching every bowler on my team leave flat 10s? Especially when I switch to a ball designed to defeat carry down and carry those 10s? How do you account for mixed leagues where bowlers throw plastic balls as strike balls and spray/pray?

Again, I'm not arguing your results...I think some "old school" bowlers rely far too much on the idea of carry down as if it was still 1970. They don't realize that reactive resin balls don't push oil around the way the urethane balls did...yet they can't get past it. BUT...there's also this stubbornness by some, named RobM, to absolutely ignore carry down no matter what the bowler sees on the lanes and blame any leave that could be blamed on carry down as "anything but carry down".

You are living proof that holding on to old bowling beliefs that are no longer true is a detriment to achieving your goals. I say this only because I consider you to be my friend, and I would really like to see you achieve your bowling potential.

Rob

Maybe. I'm not saying you're wrong. I've approached bowling as a sponge...I've taken in opinions from a wide range of sources. I started out using a "benchmark ball" and it didn't work. I switched to a "progression" and it worked better. I didn't make that decision on my own...it was influenced by a professional coach. That doesn't make it the right decision. Some pros use progressions and some use a benchmark approach.

I think I'm frustrated at this point because I was making a LOT of progress in California because I bowled a LOT and got coaching 3 times a month. Now, I don't have the time nor money to practice or take lessons...and I'm just stuck averaging in the 180s and I can't seem to get better. I think I need to get in better physical shape...which is a constant battle because I'm also getting older. Not everyone is A. Monticelli. I'm still on the good side of 50, but I'm not improving. I was really hoping to be in the 200-225 average range by the time I got into my 50s...and I've actually slid backwards 10 pins over the last 5 years.

I always appreciate input...even if I don't always agree with the approach 100%.

[RobLV1]

While I rarely post responses, I always read your posts. My "proof" that your theories are flawed comes simply from the number of times that you have HUGE variations from one game to the next. This fact, in itself says that you need help with how you adjust. Just because a center doesn't put out fresh oil on the weekend doesn't mean that bowling is doomed. It means that spoiled league bowlers who can only bowl on freshly oiled lanes are either going to quit practicing or they are going to learn to figure out how to get it done... regardless of the lane condition. Which are you?

[Aslan]

While I rarely post responses, I always read your posts. My "proof" that your theories are flawed comes simply from the number of times that you have HUGE variations from one game to the next. This fact, in itself says that you need help with how you adjust.

. Interesting.

Just because a center doesn't put out fresh oil on the weekend doesn't mean that bowling is doomed. It means that spoiled league bowlers who can only bowl on freshly oiled lanes are either going to quit practicing or they are going to learn to figure out how to get it done... regardless of the lane condition. Which are you?

Alright...I'll bite.

Modern bowling...your bread and butter...is built on the concept that a bowling ball moves through 3 distinct phases. It needs to:

Skid: Through the fronts...often through burnt up conditions.

Hook: At some point, the ball needs to encounter friction and turn.

Roll: The ball must turn and roll through the pins for optimal carry.

Now, Skid and Roll aside...the Hook phase requires a "breakpoint"...essentially an 8-board area...a rather large target down lane...where the ball encounters friction. Now, I realize I'm drastically over-simplifying this and technically the ball is encountering friction from the moment it is released, etc, etc... But, the point is...IF there is oil at the breakpoint...IF...then the ball can't hook as much as it needs to. The ball will then go "high" into the pocket and this will almost always result in a flat 10-pin or some type of 2-pin combination or maybe a weak strike where the ball exits the pin deck over the 9-pin.

Even IF we disagree about whether carry down exists in the modern game...due to modern lanes versus wood lanes and oil volumes and ball compositions, etc... We can at LEAST agree that oil in an area where a ball needs to hook...will cause the ball to skid longer...and that will leave the leaves I mentioned above. Correct?

Okay...so, you show up on a wonderful Saturday morning to practice and you take out your "Benchmark Ball"...I take out my "Ball #1". I line up in my usual starting location...you pick some random place due to your chaos theory. It doesn't really matter. Because, we're both going to leave 10-pins. Now...is that because of the "carry down"? Maybe. Maybe not. It 'might' be that we're just:

- on the wrong the line.
- using the wrong ball.
- using the wrong hand position.
- using the wrong speed.
- should switch to a 3-step, 4-step, or 5-step approach.
- should add or reduce loft.
- should move forward or back on the approach.
- should add/decrease axis tilt.
- should add/decrease axis rotation.
- or...the pins weren't racked perfectly.

Now, we don't know why we left a 10-pin. There's no way to tell. The scoring monitor doesn't tell us. We can only hope to discern if it was a flat 10 or a ringing 10...and even that is often times difficult if you're not paying attention. And remember! This assumes you made a good shot!

Now, we can go through each of those 10 items on that list...we can spend all afternoon at South Point...drilling down on each one of those items...until my knee falls off and your back gives out. BUT...if at the end of the day...if the culprit is carry down at the breakpoint...we just wasted a day, a back, and a knee.

And THAT is my concern. I'm 100% in agreement with you that it's great to have ways to deal with anything the lanes throw at you. Anyone that doesn't...good luck if you ever bowl in a tournament that lasts more than 4 games...because bowling on burnt conditions will kill you physically and mentally. You can't bring enough bowling balls with you to battle every possible scenario...you need other tools as well. But, when you're trying to figure out what you need to do to make those adjustments...you want to limit as many variables as possible. You don't want to add variables. Carrydown and random oil patterns during practice is essentially adding a variable. Now, you're not striking...and you don't know why. You may be doing everything right...but you're going to walk away from that center thinking you need to make drastic changes...all because you bowled 2 hours after a kids birthday party.

[Aslan]

Now that I've argued with my former teacher...I'll post my worst bowling scores in recent memory to validate everything he's been saying...that I'm essentially a horrible bowler that knows nothing.

Tuesday Pepsi Master's Trios: THS

Week 11

628 Series: 162-147-180-139

I don't know. I was lined up well in practice. I don't know if it's still just too much surface at 1000 or if the line just broke down in practice and didn't give me anywhere to go. Switched to the Yeah Baby Solid in Frame 6, but not much better luck.
9 /, 8 /, 9 /, 8 1, 9 /, 7 -, 8 /, 8 /, 8 /, 8 / X.

The YBS was a disaster. Switched to the Special Ops after frame 5...obviously not much improvement.
8 1, 6 2, 7 /, X, 8 1, X, X, 7 2, 8 1, 7 / 8.

Switched to the Pyramid Force Pearl after 5 frames. But, I was moving so far inside by that point that I was playing a line I'm just not successful playing.
X, 9 /, 9 /, 9 /, 7 /, X, 9 /, 8 /, 8 1, X 9 /.

Normally the 4th game is my game...but not when I'm standing 14-16 boards left of center and targeting 17-19. Not even the Force Pearl can save me when I'm in that dead man's land.
7 -, X, X, 7 2, 6 /, 6 /, 6 2, 7 2, X, 7 2.

PinPal Stats:
First Ball Average: 8.26 pins
Strikes: 23%
Spares: 59% picked up

Single Pin spares: 100% (8/8)
Most common single-pin leaves: 7-pin and 9-pin (2x each)
Never left a single 1-pin, 5-pin, 6-pin, nor 8-pin.

Multiple Pin spares: 45% (11/24)
Most common multi-pin leave: 6-10 (4x)

Splits: 12% (1/8)

Average over 3 games: 157.00.
Average had I picked up all single-pin spares: n/a.

I always say that...no matter what happens...I'll never be mad about my performance if I shoot 100% at single-pins. Well, tonight I'm a liar.

I lost every point to a bowler with 1 pin less average than me. It wasn't even close. It was embarrassing. I left 8 splits. I NEVER figured out a line in FOUR games! I was going through the nose constantly (thus the splits)...yet every time I'd move in...I'd go through the nose again...until finally I was SO far inside...that I'd leave a washout.

I tried vertical targeting changes...I wasn't afraid to move inside and challenge my comfort zone...I used every ball in my bag. Meanwhile...I watched a team of old timers get weak strike after weak strike...ball up and move right and make moves that made no sense...yet they'd carry on goofy nonsense.

Just an embarrassing night.

[RobLV1]

There are times that the lanes are so dry that getting your ball to hit as it enters the roll stage is just not possible. When that happens, you do what those old timers were doing, you let the ball roll out, hit light in the pocket, and mix up the pins. Often you'll leave three on the deck, but they all will go down.

In terms of encountering oil at the breakpoint making the ball skid too much, that just doesn't happen. What you think is skid, is actually the wiggle the indicates that the ball is burning up early. It won't get back to the pocket, but it's not because there's oil at the breakpoint.

I assume you are still a speed dominant bowler, as indicated by the ridiculous amount of surface you put on so many of your bowling balls. Of course, this is fine if you can't be bothered to notice if your ten pins are weak or ringing! No excuse for that!

Once again, I will repeat what I said before; your refusal to abandon you long-held misconceptions is killing your bowling!

[boomer]

I actually enjoy bowling on house conditions. It can be a challenge so count it as such. When we practice (my wife and I) we get one game to play, to loosen up and for me to figure out what's kinda going on. She's much more casual so she just loosens up. I find it fun - I try the 'strike from each arrow" thing, which is challenging anyway, but even moreso.

Then we bring out a dice and work on spare shooting.

But I've had some really good scores on burnt up house conditions. Open your mind!

The ONLY time I've had zero enjoyment on house conditions was when there was SO LITTLE oil that my white-dot would hook off the lane when I lofted the left gutter. :O That was insane - and was actually burning the track on the balls so we left. That's the only time, though. Damage? No.

[Aslan]

There are times that the lanes are so dry that getting your ball to hit as it enters the roll stage is just not possible. When that happens, you do what those old timers were doing, you let the ball roll out, hit light in the pocket, and mix up the pins. Often you'll leave three on the deck, but they all will go down.

The old timer that could really score...was doing what I was doing. He had moved inside with a polished ball and was really lofting it out there. He was just much, much better at the inside game than I was.

The other two guys...I mean, one of them was using a sanded Hyper Cell for crying out loud! He started out bowling around 11-12...then started leaving 10-pins...and he moved RIGHT! He started playing 7-8! And yes, he continued to leave 10-pins...but sometimes he'd strike. It was really, really *******g me off!!

In terms of encountering oil at the breakpoint making the ball skid too much, that just doesn't happen. What you think is skid, is actually the wiggle the indicates that the ball is burning up early. It won't get back to the pocket, but it's not because there's oil at the breakpoint.

If thats true...balling down should strike. And thats always my first thought. But, if you ball down..and it's STILL burning up too early...then what??

See...and you're going to cause me to put my head in a ball dehydrator...because you're going to say I need to move inside. But...I already did that. I moved inside because the ball went through the nose or left a 4-pin. THEN, it hit weak. So, I balled down. IF that strikes...we're all good...no problem. But, if it still is hitting weak...either you have carry down...OR...you need to move RIGHT because the ball you balled down to isn't as aggressive as the last ball you threw.

Now, I assume carry down...I switch to a skid/flip with an aggressive core...I usually have good luck. You're going to tell me thats wrong. You're going to want me to move inside and change my hand position and lower my speed and maybe even ball Up. But I can't do all that! I can't stand left of 30 and target left of 20. The balls just don't come back. I don't have the hand and my speed is too high. I can move up in the approach and try to drop my speed...but I haven't found a way to drop it low enough to make that line work. Not at 12-14mph...and I can't seem to get lower than that.

I assume you are still a speed dominant bowler, as indicated by the ridiculous amount of surface you put on so many of your bowling balls. Of course, this is fine if you can't be bothered to notice if your ten pins are weak or ringing! No excuse for that!

Once again, I will repeat what I said before; your refusal to abandon you long-held misconceptions is killing your bowling!

Well, I'm not going to say you're wrong because you're smart and I suck at bowling so maybe you're right. <---- Rob's ringing endorsement of the day.

But, one thing that HAS been hurting my bowling recently is my arsenal selection. When I was throwing all polished, Pearl, 2.49RG balls...I did very well.

1. Radical Reaxx Pearl (4000 matte), Ebonite Innovate (2000/Step 3), Hammer Scandal Pearl (500 polished)

2. DV8 Thug Life (1000 matte), Ebonite Warning Sign (2000 matte), Hammer Scandal Pearl (360/Step 1/polished)

Those two arsenals worked well and were very similar. The first ball was a 2.49RG ball with 0.052-0.054 diff. Then, I'd ball down to a weaker Ebonite ball with a 2.49 RG and 0.041 diff. Then, switch to the symmetric core Scandal Pearl. All these balls essentially had the same 2.49 RG. All were pearl coverstocks except the Warning Sign. It was just a matter of finding a good line with the stronger Radical or DV8 ball...then balling down to the weaker Ebonite ball...then going to the Scandal Pearl...I say to battle carry down or you can say to ball down again because of the polished surface.

SINCE THEN...I've had two problematic arsenals:

3. DV8 Grudge Hybrid (4000 matte), Brunswick Aura Mystic (2000/R. Compound), Brunswick Fortera Exile (500/R. Compound/polished).

4. Storm Optimus Solid (1000 matte), Lane Master's Yeah Baby Sinful (800 matte), 900 Global Special Ops (Step 1/Step 2/Step 3/polished), Pyramid Force Pearl (500/Step 1/polished)

The problem with the Grudge Hybrid and Aura Mystic was they were essentially the same ball with the same specs...except the Grudge Hybrid was newer and a "little" stronger. Unfortunately, most THS houses I bowled at, I couldn't find a line to play with the Grudge...so I'd end up bowling 2 games with the Mystic before switching to the Exile. The Exile did well, but I didn't have that nice 3-ball situation I had before.

And with #4 (current arsenal)...I'm completely lost. The Optimus Solid was supposed to give me a ball that would allow me to move a little more inside and play more in the oil...it has not. I tried to add some surface to it...and all that has done is seemingly cause it to burn up in practice.

The YBS is a joke. A solid cover on a ball with a 2.62 RG! To put that in perspective...my Slingshot had a 2.59RG and my Track 300A had a 2.58RG...and they were essentially glorified spare balls. This YBS just goes straight...and doesn't move. I guess if there is oil in front of the pin deck...maybe the solid cover is supposed to do something? I mean, what's the point of a solid cover on a high RG ball? It's stupid. I end up having to move right to use this ball...because I can't play near the line of the Optimus Solid...and adding surface to the YBS has made it even more useless than it was before.

The Special Ops...biggest disappointment in my bag!! With a bullet! The guys on Lakeside Reviews couldn't stop talking about how great this ball is...what a joke! This ball doesn't move at all...unless you get too much hand into it...then it moves too much and goes through the nose and leaves wonderful splits. This ball hits like a hamster ball. Unpredictable.

The Force Pearl is the only ball that has done well...but thats mostly because it's essentially the same as the Fortera Exile I threw well before. The only thing that annoys me is...I tried to "tweek" the performance just a little bit by changing the surface...and it hasn't hit as well since. So, back to the 500/Step 1/polish...because the 1000/polished was a mistake.

So, I don't know. I didn't have high hopes for this arsenal...it was kind've the last of the "closet of destiny"...and it looks like I may have been right. At this point, I'd just like to figure out the surfaces enough to make it through the fall season without have to make a major investment in replacement equipment.

[RobLV1]

Let's look at this logically. Most house shots are oiled from 10 to 10. To the right of ten starts out dry. Most bowlers play the oil line around 10. Every reactive ball that goes down the lane sucks up oil. The line dries up. Why would you ever move back to more dry? Answer: YOU WOULDN'T! I told this to one of my teammates. He later told me that he thought I was nuts. He used to average about 205. One day he decided (for whatever reason) to try my nutty suggestion. Today he averages about 225. Balling down is not used instead of lateral adjustments. Ball changes are used in conjunction with lateral adjustments. Personally, the ball change that I use the most today is balling up as I get so far left that I can't get the weaker ball back. I'm averaging higher than I have in the last 15-20 years. Let go of your tired, outdated preconceptions and improve. You don't suck at bowling... you're just one of the most stubborn students I've ever tried to help!

[Aslan]

Why would you ever move back to more dry?

I don't think you ever would "move right". I know some bowlers still push for times when you would do that. I've "heard' their reasons have to do with a theory that even modern bowling balls don't suck up "all" of the oil and actually "push" some oil around...pushing it to the left and to the right. Thus, some oil does get pushed to the right and create a condition where moving right makes sense.

I'm not "keen" on that philosophy. Seems like even if there is some truth to it...even IF...:

1) It wouldn't be a noticeable amount and would disappear quickly...leading you right back into an unpredictable dry area.

2) It'd only 'theoretically' work if you were out there alone. If anyone is right of you...any oil you've "pushed" over there is just being sucked up by them.

Now, is "balling down and trying to stay in an area" the same as "moving right"? I'd contend it is not. It sounds like you are equating the two.

I look at bowling balls kinda like car tires. As you move left, conditions get oily...just like a road getting icy. If you start with your strongest ball...you keep moving left...as you do the ice melts a little...but eventually you get to a point where the the road is just too icy (even with the melting) for the tires (ball) you have. But, moving right, as you and I agree, is never a good option. Sooooo??

You seem to have stronger tires...that for some reason you weren't previously using...and decide to put them on the car and this allows you to continue to move left. No problem with that. I'd have started with the strongest so I could get left of everyone I could...but to each their own.

For me, I simply put on tires that are a little weaker (less traction)...which allows me to play the most aggressive line possible...yet still retain the most energy possible. But, as you stay in that area (of the road)...the ice is going to continue to melt (oil continue to disappear)...thus you eventually are going to possibly need to move left a little and probably again need to put on tires that are a little weaker (less traction).

By using my strategy, I never "move right" as a tactic. I simply find a line that works and then use my arsenal in a way that tries to maximize carry. The only 'asterisk' to that is when a ball change isn't perfect. And this happens when you don't have an ideal arsenal. Sometimes changing to a ball that is quite a bit weaker than 'ideal'..you need to change your line right or change your vertical targeting, or straighten out your line...because balling down is too drastic of a drop from where you were at. Essentially, you switched to tires with far too little traction.

So, adjust right? No...not a fan. But, I think most centers use a THS and most bowlers have a comfortable style that allows them to play a certain area given their speed and ability to put RPMs on the ball. And one can either accept that and try to maximize it. Or, one can try to make changes to their game that allow them to play more of a range. However...how to "teach" an elderly/injured bowler to develop more speed I think is nearly impossible. And trying to develop more revs for a bowler...thats a tough road...takes a long time. Most coaches tend to work on a bowler's stance, approach, timing, repeatability, accuracy...and THEN...work on things like increasing RPMs. I don't think my training ever got that far so I don't know what a bowler can do to increase RPMs. I only got to the stage of trying to throw a more relaxed shot...which supposedly helps with rpms and ball movement.

[RobLV1]

"Now, is "balling down and trying to stay in an area" the same as "moving right"? I'd contend it is not. It sounds like you are equating the two."

I'm not saying that they are the same thing. They do, however, have one major thing in common... neither one works!