USBC Declares Motiv Jackal/Jackal Challenge Approval Revoked

[Aslan]

I find it odd that on the Facebook page and other forums...it's considered a "good discussion" to bash the USBC for enforcing a rule. Yet if I ask the PBA or Motiv to step up and do something...it's beating a dead horse. I understand that sentiment from Motiv-lovers...and the USBC is easy to hate since God Forbid you have to pay them $21 a year for membership and they no longer give you gold and diamond rings for doing something that is fairly routine nowadays....but c'mon.

If I were a conspiracy theorist...which I'm not...one would "wonder"...

....how does a relatively unknown bowler...make TV 4 times and win a major title averaging 18 pins higher than he ever has? Hmmmm....

....why is it that no publication...except for a couple minor papers...have even mentioned it...and it's almost impossible to find content...and ESPN...nothing? Hmmm....

...after getting destroyed by Storm and DV8 in major titles in 2015...suddenly they finish #1 and #2 in the final major of the year? Hmmm....

...I wonder...if the Falkner bowling in the White House on March 4th...I wonder if politically it would be better if there wasn't a question about his title? Hmmm....

...and what about the rest of Motiv's staff? Patrick Girard made match play 8 times in 13 tourneys...a feat he's never come close to since his peak in 2006-2007. And Ronnie Russell, in my opinion their most talented bowler...12 tv finalsand 2 titles in two years....double his total for the entire decade before that. Hmmmm...

As Arsenio Hall would say; "things that make ya say hmmm"


Oh well...something interesting and unprecedented happened in the sport of bowling last week....now, lets get back to recommending the RotoGrip Haywire for everyone looking for an addition to their arsenal and talking about Donald Trump.



Besides....this is at least 2 pages shorter than Iceman's post about the Aliens working with the FDA to poison us. Just sayin.

[Amyers]

If you were in the business of testing balls, knowing that in the future you are also going to be doing random testing, wouldn't you budget into your original fee the cost of random testing.

Now it the balls fail random testing, you will be taking a risk of purchasing a larger sample, but if those also fail, you can recoup your costs plus more by levying a fine on the manufacturer of say $16,000.

Most likely correct. My simple point is that it's very simple to expect a lot. Its very difficult to provide a lot for $12 a month. I'm sure we can raise the fee the manufactures pay for ball testing the usbc can hire additional ball testers and we can now pay $200 instead of $179 per ball but I'll sleep better at nigh knowing the person bowling beside me doesn't have .001 more differential than I do

[Amyers]

I find it odd that on the Facebook page and other forums...it's considered a "good discussion" to bash the USBC for enforcing a rule. Yet if I ask the PBA or Motiv to step up and do something...it's beating a dead horse. I understand that sentiment from Motiv-lovers...and the USBC is easy to hate since God Forbid you have to pay them $21 a year for membership and they no longer give you gold and diamond rings for doing something that is fairly routine nowadays....but c'mon.

If I were a conspiracy theorist...which I'm not...one would "wonder"...

....how does a relatively unknown bowler...make TV 4 times and win a major title averaging 18 pins higher than he ever has? Hmmmm....

....why is it that no publication...except for a couple minor papers...have even mentioned it...and it's almost impossible to find content...and ESPN...nothing? Hmmm....

...after getting destroyed by Storm and DV8 in major titles in 2015...suddenly they finish #1 and #2 in the final major of the year? Hmmm....

...I wonder...if the Falkner bowling in the White House on March 4th...I wonder if politically it would be better if there wasn't a question about his title? Hmmm....

...and what about the rest of Motiv's staff? Patrick Girard made match play 8 times in 13 tourneys...a feat he's never come close to since his peak in 2006-2007. And Ronnie Russell, in my opinion their most talented bowler...12 tv finalsand 2 titles in two years....double his total for the entire decade before that. Hmmmm...

As Arsenio Hall would say; "things that make ya say hmmm"


Oh well...something interesting and unprecedented happened in the sport of bowling last week....now, lets get back to recommending the RotoGrip Haywire for everyone looking for an addition to their arsenal and talking about Donald Trump.



Besides....this is at least 2 pages shorter than Iceman's post about the Aliens working with the FDA to poison us. Just sayin.

The USBC haters and the guys expecting free drilling have been bashed on those sites too.

I just don't understand the point of what you want.

Fact: the pba doesn't have standards for balls they use USBC
Fact: the balls were legal during the competition
Fact: the balls are no longer legal
fact: the diffrence in the legal ball and the ball used is so small that it's a non factor

So now you want the PBA to annoy one of thier few major sponsors and embarrass one of the few good stories in bowling Gary Faulkiners trip to the White House with some "scandal" because maybe some equipment could have had a difference in it so small that it made no difference whatsoever in the out come. I've never owned a Motiv ball and Ben I think that's insane.

[Mike White]

Most likely correct. My simple point is that it's very simple to expect a lot. Its very difficult to provide a lot for $12 a month. I'm sure we can raise the fee the manufactures pay for ball testing the usbc can hire additional ball testers and we can now pay $200 instead of $179 per ball but I'll sleep better at nigh knowing the person bowling beside me doesn't have .001 more differential than I do

$12 a month?????

Unless I happen to shoot 800+ series this season, there isn't a damn thing I'm going to get for my $12.

BTW there is no rule that states the bowler beside you can't have .001 more differential than you do.

I guess that means you're going to need some sleeping pills.

I have 3 balls that together didn't add up to $179, and I score quite well with them.

If you're worried about the price of bowling balls, stop buying expensive balls.

If enough people do this, the manufactures and proprietors would get the message.

Stop the madness, take back the sport, accept lower scores, knowing that if you got beat, your opponent actually threw the ball better that night, not bought the latest miracle ball, or knows some inside information about the oil pattern.

Bowling was strong back when to get better, your money went to practice, not to equipment manufacturers.

And the proprietors benefited by more practice lineage, and a lower monthly lane dressing bill.

[Amyers]

$12 a month?????

Unless I happen to shoot 800+ series this season, there isn't a damn thing I'm going to get for my $12.

BTW there is no rule that states the bowler beside you can't have .001 more differential than you do.

I guess that means you're going to need some sleeping pills.

I have 3 balls that together didn't add up to $179, and I score quite well with them.

If you're worried about the price of bowling balls, stop buying expensive balls.

If enough people do this, the manufactures and proprietors would get the message.

Stop the madness, take back the sport, accept lower scores, knowing that if you got beat, your opponent actually threw the ball better that night, not bought the latest miracle ball, or knows some inside information about the oil pattern.

Bowling was strong back when to get better, your money went to practice, not to equipment manufacturers.

And the proprietors benefited by more practice lineage, and a lower monthly lane dressing bill.

Mike I don't disagree with you on some of your points here and I wasn't advocating for or against anything your talking about in your post. I've seen some of your post that are intelligent, thoughtful, and helpful unfortunately I've also seen you act like a vindictive a$$ clown. If you don't have a point regarding what I'm posting don't bother to respond.

I'm a huge fan of tougher patterns, I do use modern balls but I don't feel the need to buy the biggest hook monster I can, and I certainly don't think that a ball will cure any of my ills bowling wise. You knew exactly the point I was making referring to the differential in the Motiv balls.

I personally don't care if you like the USBC or what the fees were or the price of a bowling ball I was referring only to the fact that the current fee structure would change if the USBC decided to partake in more stringent testing than is currently done and you knew and know that I'm correct.

I have no problem being corrected if I'm giving bad advice or offering items that are factual incorrect but If your not going to use any of that knowledge for anything besides belaboring points in a useless fashion maybe you should put yourself back on double secret probation or wherever the crap you've been.

[Aslan]

The USBC haters and the guys expecting free drilling have been bashed on those sites too.

I just don't understand the point of what you want.

Fact: the pba doesn't have standards for balls they use USBC
Fact: the balls were legal during the competition
Fact: the balls are no longer legal
fact: the diffrence in the legal ball and the ball used is so small that it's a non factor

So now you want the PBA to annoy one of thier few major sponsors and embarrass one of the few good stories in bowling Gary Faulkiners trip to the White House with some "scandal" because maybe some equipment could have had a difference in it so small that it made no difference whatsoever in the out come. I've never owned a Motiv ball and Ben I think that's insane.

Mike...your points are valid...but I ask you to entertain THIS:

Why was Bill Clinton almost impeached? Why was Martha Stewart sent to prison?

The issue wasn't what they DID...it's that they lied about it.

The USBC did their job. Yes. But they waited to do their job until a competitor forced them to....then "relucatantly" agreed to do it...and "reluctantly" enforced their rule.

The RULE...is not in question. You and 10 billion other people can disagree that differential is worth anything...and you're probably right. But you're essentially making the "steroids don't make it easier to hit a baseball" argument. Or Pete Rose didn't bet on his own team argument. The rules are the rules. You don't like the rules....change the rules. If you do a right turn on a red light...where it's posted that you can't do a right turn on a red light...you may be able to claim it was 3:30AM and there was nobody near the intersection....but the cop is probably still writing you a ticket. Why do we not allow drivers to use car pool lanes between 11PM and 4AM...when there is no traffic congestion? It makes no sense....but it's the rule.

The question is...does it MATTER if Motiv KNEW....and Falkner KNEW....that their balls were outside the specifications? You and most others seem to just assume they didn't....yet Motiv never said that...and as far as we know, their athletes have not been asked. And as far as we know, the PBA isn't investigating it. Does it matter if they "knew"? I think it does. I think it matters very, very much.

And this garbage excuse that you and others use...that the PBA or USBC doesn't want to annoy their gravy train...that's no excuse. Either the game has integrity or it doesn't. Either it's a sport, or it's entertainment. If the NFL decided not to enforce rules on the Saints post Hurricane Katrina or on the Patriots because they're the most popular team...there would be outrage! The PBA has no right to brush this under the rug because they don't want to upset Motiv or because it will make Falkner look bad. In my opinion, they have a duty to the sport...to ensure fair play, honesty, integrity, and enforce rules. If they start allowing some companies to cheat or some players to cheat...then where does that leave the sport?

So lets look at the outstanding items/facts:
- Motiv has never made a public statement that they had no previous knowledge of the non-compliant balls.
- Motiv has not specified how this error occurred nor what they are doing to ensure it doesn't occur in the future.
- No Motiv athlete has made any statements that they did not know or did know.
- The USBC, in their public statement, never mentioned that they "reluctantly" tested the balls sent to them.
- No party, person, nor entity has taken responsibility for sending those balls to the USBC.
- The PBA has not made any public statement, other than a phone interview with a bowler with a blog, that they have investigated this matter.
- The PBA has not made any statement indicating they have questioned and Motiv athletes.
- The PBA has not made any statement indicating they approve or disapprove of the manufacturers sending balls to the USBC to be tested.
- The PBA has made no public statement that they have investigated Motiv's quality control issues and are satisfied with Motiv's new standards to avoid this in the future.

The reason this is STILL an issue...is because of the overwhelming unresolved questions. It's not what has been SAID...it's what has NOT been said.

Personally, I feel there's a 2% chance the athletes knew. I have NOTHING against Motiv athletes or Gary Falkner Jr. personally. But to not even ask the question? To just brush it under the rug because it "looks bad" to question the 2nd black PBA major title holder that recently visited the White House? Shame on the PBA for even hesitating for that reason. Now, I think there's a much higher % chance...that Motiv KNEW. I'd say...19% chance they knew. Still, 5-1 odds...I'm more than 80% sure they didn't know and it's just a quality control issue...no bigee. But there's a 1 in 5 chance...that they KNEW. They violated the rules, they knew about it, and they did nothing. And the most damn ing evidence is....they never denied that they knew.

Think about that...if you made bowling balls...we'll call them the MWhites. And one day, Amyers sends in a box of your balls to be tested and they come back out of spec and you get a call from the USBC. When you release a statement to your customers....aren't you going to include something to the effect, "We had no idea this problem existed until the USBC informed us and we are taking every step possible to improve our quality control and engineering systems to eliminate any chance of this happening in the future"? Why didn't Motiv claim they didn't know? If you get pulled over for having a busted tail light...and you didn't know...aren't ya gonna respond to the officer, "Dang it! I had no idea!" Or are you going to sit there calm, cool, collective and just say..."Yeah."

I know everyone wants me to be quiet and think I'm being a nutjob conspiracy theorist...but does it matter if they KNEW? Does it matter? Does it MATTER if Falkner KNEW he was throwing equipment that exceeded specifications? Does it MATTER if Motiv intentionally submitted balls with a lower differential to the USBC than what they later manufactured? Does it MATTER if the PBA KNOWS...and are intentionally hiding the facts for political reasons? Eveyone except me...is ASSUMING...that Motiv made a mistake...nobody knew...it's irrelevant anyway....the matter is closed. But, would you feel the same if they KNEW? Has bowling fallen so far...that we don't even care?

[Amyers]

Mike...your points are valid...but I ask you to entertain THIS:

Why was Bill Clinton almost impeached? Why was Martha Stewart sent to prison?

The issue wasn't what they DID...it's that they lied about it.

The USBC did their job. Yes. But they waited to do their job until a competitor forced them to....then "relucatantly" agreed to do it...and "reluctantly" enforced their rule.

The RULE...is not in question. You and 10 billion other people can disagree that differential is worth anything...and you're probably right. But you're essentially making the "steroids don't make it easier to hit a baseball" argument. Or Pete Rose didn't bet on his own team argument. The rules are the rules. You don't like the rules....change the rules. If you do a right turn on a red light...where it's posted that you can't do a right turn on a red light...you may be able to claim it was 3:30AM and there was nobody near the intersection....but the cop is probably still writing you a ticket. Why do we not allow drivers to use car pool lanes between 11PM and 4AM...when there is no traffic congestion? It makes no sense....but it's the rule.

The question is...does it MATTER if Motiv KNEW....and Falkner KNEW....that their balls were outside the specifications? You and most others seem to just assume they didn't....yet Motiv never said that...and as far as we know, their athletes have not been asked. And as far as we know, the PBA isn't investigating it. Does it matter if they "knew"? I think it does. I think it matters very, very much.

And this garbage excuse that you and others use...that the PBA or USBC doesn't want to annoy their gravy train...that's no excuse. Either the game has integrity or it doesn't. Either it's a sport, or it's entertainment. If the NFL decided not to enforce rules on the Saints post Hurricane Katrina or on the Patriots because they're the most popular team...there would be outrage! The PBA has no right to brush this under the rug because they don't want to upset Motiv or because it will make Falkner look bad. In my opinion, they have a duty to the sport...to ensure fair play, honesty, integrity, and enforce rules. If they start allowing some companies to cheat or some players to cheat...then where does that leave the sport?

So lets look at the outstanding items/facts:
- Motiv has never made a public statement that they had no previous knowledge of the non-compliant balls.
- Motiv has not specified how this error occurred nor what they are doing to ensure it doesn't occur in the future.
- No Motiv athlete has made any statements that they did not know or did know.
- The USBC, in their public statement, never mentioned that they "reluctantly" tested the balls sent to them.
- No party, person, nor entity has taken responsibility for sending those balls to the USBC.
- The PBA has not made any public statement, other than a phone interview with a bowler with a blog, that they have investigated this matter.
- The PBA has not made any statement indicating they have questioned and Motiv athletes.
- The PBA has not made any statement indicating they approve or disapprove of the manufacturers sending balls to the USBC to be tested.
- The PBA has made no public statement that they have investigated Motiv's quality control issues and are satisfied with Motiv's new standards to avoid this in the future.

The reason this is STILL an issue...is because of the overwhelming unresolved questions. It's not what has been SAID...it's what has NOT been said.

Personally, I feel there's a 2% chance the athletes knew. I have NOTHING against Motiv athletes or Gary Falkner Jr. personally. But to not even ask the question? To just brush it under the rug because it "looks bad" to question the 2nd black PBA major title holder that recently visited the White House? Shame on the PBA for even hesitating for that reason. Now, I think there's a much higher % chance...that Motiv KNEW. I'd say...19% chance they knew. Still, 5-1 odds...I'm more than 80% sure they didn't know and it's just a quality control issue...no bigee. But there's a 1 in 5 chance...that they KNEW. They violated the rules, they knew about it, and they did nothing. And the most damn ing evidence is....they never denied that they knew.

Think about that...if you made bowling balls...we'll call them the MWhites. And one day, Amyers sends in a box of your balls to be tested and they come back out of spec and you get a call from the USBC. When you release a statement to your customers....aren't you going to include something to the effect, "We had no idea this problem existed until the USBC informed us and we are taking every step possible to improve our quality control and engineering systems to eliminate any chance of this happening in the future"? Why didn't Motiv claim they didn't know? If you get pulled over for having a busted tail light...and you didn't know...aren't ya gonna respond to the officer, "Dang it! I had no idea!" Or are you going to sit there calm, cool, collective and just say..."Yeah."

I know everyone wants me to be quiet and think I'm being a nutjob conspiracy theorist...but does it matter if they KNEW? Does it matter? Does it MATTER if Falkner KNEW he was throwing equipment that exceeded specifications? Does it MATTER if Motiv intentionally submitted balls with a lower differential to the USBC than what they later manufactured? Does it MATTER if the PBA KNOWS...and are intentionally hiding the facts for political reasons? Eveyone except me...is ASSUMING...that Motiv made a mistake...nobody knew...it's irrelevant anyway....the matter is closed. But, would you feel the same if they KNEW? Has bowling fallen so far...that we don't even care?

Here the thing with the ball even if Gary and the other bowlers knew that the balls were outside USBC specs that didn't make them illegal for PBA competition. The PBA doesn't have rules for balls only that they have to be on the USBC's approved list. My guess is Motiv did know. If your going to make a ball that is right against the spec limit then surely you are testing some percentage unless you just don't believe anyone will ever check which might be possible. If Motiv knew then my guess would be the players did too.

It would be my guess that there is a manufacturing tolerance for every ball and if a tour pro wants a ball a certain way on either side of the tolerance he can get it. I've heard enough conversations from older former tour players to know that having balls marked with different color pins and other markers for them because there was some difference in the balls wasn't uncommon in the 70's and 80's. I seriously doubt that has changed. My guess would be if Gary knew and wanted a ball on the high side of the diff variance he could have had it and this isn't just a Motiv thing I'm sure Storm and Brunswick do the same things maybe even more as they have larger tour budgets.

As you've mentioned in the past these guys are good enough they can throw anything and score with it. The thought that they had something would be more beneficial to them than any few points in variance of the core specs ever would.

[Aslan]

So Amyers...correct me if I'm wrong...but you're saying...

Motiv probably knew....and their athletes probably knew....but it's still not a big deal?

Realize that in the area of "The Law"....there is a HUGE difference between "Willful" and "Accidental". HUGE difference. One you get probation or a 2-3 year jail sentence...might just be a misdemeanor. One is 5 years to life and a possible death sentence depending on the crime.

I may be wrong here...but I would be shocked and saddened if all the people share your opinion...that it's perfectly fine for a company to violate USBC/PBA rules; knowingly and willfully. That may be the final nail in the coffin in terms of bowling being considered a "sport"....or it ever being considered for Olympic competition.

[Amyers]

So Amyers...correct me if I'm wrong...but you're saying...

Motiv probably knew....and their athletes probably knew....but it's still not a big deal?

Realize that in the area of "The Law"....there is a HUGE difference between "Willful" and "Accidental". HUGE difference. One you get probation or a 2-3 year jail sentence...might just be a misdemeanor. One is 5 years to life and a possible death sentence depending on the crime.

I may be wrong here...but I would be shocked and saddened if all the people share your opinion...that it's perfectly fine for a company to violate USBC/PBA rules; knowingly and willfully. That may be the final nail in the coffin in terms of bowling being considered a "sport"....or it ever being considered for Olympic competition.

The problem with your assumptions is that it is against PBA rules. The PBA doesn't have any rules for undrilled differential only that the ball has to be "USBC Approved" at the time they bowled it was so no matter what it was legal then because it was on the approved list now it's not so the ball is no longer legal.

If you really want you mind blown the Raptor Talon made by Motiv is still on the approved list has the same core. The Jackal Pro and Jackal Sapphire (both overseas balls) have the same core still on the approved list. So if they wanted to tomorrow a PBA player could use one of those balls at the next tournament.

This kind of stuff goes on in every sport it's no different than refrigerating the baseballs at Coors Field or the old Celtics Arena where the wires that supported the baskets were right next to the seats and the fans could jerk on them when the opposite team was shooting free throws. I don't consider it to be at the level of Baseballs amphetamine problem that went on for thirty years. Read some books on baseball from the 40's - 80's where they talk about being bowls of "greenies" in open sight in the club house.

[Aslan]

The problem with your assumptions is that it is against PBA rules. The PBA doesn't have any rules for undrilled differential only that the ball has to be "USBC Approved" at the time they bowled it was so no matter what it was legal then because it was on the approved list now it's not so the ball is no longer legal.

So again...what you're saying....is it is perfectly legal and acceptable to a player to cheat...so long as technically the USBC doesn't find out until afterwards?

Your logic is;
- Company cheated (per USBC specifications)
- Player knowingly used companies products.
- Company exposed.
- Player claims it was fine because the company wasn't exposed before he used the products.

Imagine it isn't bowling. Because, apparently cheating in bowling is okay. Imagine it's...baseball.

Louisville Slugger makes a bat. They submit it to the MLB for approval and it's tested and approved. Lousiville slugger then drills out the middle and puts in lead weights. They ship it to Barry Bonds and tell him to use this bat, it contains lead weights and will make it hit the ball farther. Barry knows that is not legal. Lousiville Slugger says not to worry about it, baseball never checks.

Barry uses said bat and hits 6HRs in one game, clinching a playoff berth for the Giants. After the game, the other team asks the bat approval lab to test his bat...they test it...find out it contains lead weights. The testing lab delists it as "approved". Lousiville Slugger simply states they will recall all of those bats that have lead weights in them and replace them with solid wood bats.

Do you think the MLB would simply release a statement saying, "Yeah...it sucks for the Dodgers fans...but technically the testing lab said the bat was approved...all be it without the weights added....and Louisville Slugger is a good organization and so are the Giants."?? The HRs count, the record counts, the Giants make the playoffs, and it's all "OK" because even though the cheating was intentional by both the company and the player...it wasn't discovered until after the fact?

Why is this "OK" in bowling and not in any other major sport?

IF Motiv knew...and Falkner knew...his title should be voided and given to Ciminelli and Cimminelli would have an almost lock-tight civil case to claim the difference between 1st place and 2nd place money.

I still find it curious though....you honestly think that it was okay...even IF...Motiv and Falkner knew?? That's a balsy stance, I must admit. I mean, in criminal court...you are absolutely right. The lawyer for Motiv/Falkner could argue that since the ball was technically legal, even though they knew it probably wasn't, they at worst committed fraud and to prove that "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be difficult without concrete evidence that Motiv informed Falkner the ball was definitely out of spec....illegal, etc... But in CIVIL preceedings...they'd lose automatically...wouldn't even need the expense of a trial. In that case, they defrauded Ryan Ciminelli and the PBA fans by knowingly cheating and violating USBC guidelines that govern equipment specifications. Motiv could be on the hook, in a civil trial, for thousands of dollars owned to other competitors who did not cash but were close to the cash line. They'd owe punitive damages. They'd owe the PBA fans compensatory damages. Pro shops could be entitled to money. Civil cases can get very, very expensive. Ask OJ Simpson....he skirted the double murder charge...but lost in civil court easily and owed more money than he was worth.

Somebody asked what I want. IF Motiv admitted they knew. And IF their athletes admitted they knew. I would hope the PBA would suspend Motiv and fine them. I would say a fair settlement would be a 2-year suspension for Motiv from PBA competition. As far as the fine, I think that could be...maybe 2 million with 1 million going to the PBA and the other million being divided among the competitors in 2014-2016. The PBA could use their million to continue to sponsor events Motiv was supposed to sponsor in 2016-2017.

But see...that's why "whether they knew" is so important. It's the difference between a minor quality control issue that results in an inconvenience to Jackal owners and a slap on the wrist USBC fine...versus...a civil liability case that could cost Motiv twice what they plan to shell out in recall costs. Will it happen? Probably not. Proving that a company knew or that the athletes knew is difficult. It would take a credible whistle-blower. And since the PBA isn't interested in pursuing this, it would take DV8 and Ryan Cimminelli bringing a suit against them...which given the weakness of Brunswick right now....is doubtful.