A bowling misconception that knowledge should outweigh talent ?

[fordman1]

Most good house bowlers if given the time and opportunity could be good sport shot or PBA shot bowlers. When you are a Pete Weber who has never done anything but bowl since he was a baby. Never worked 12 hours in a steel mill or factory where it can be in the high 90's and so noisy you can't talk to the person next to you. You breath in smoke and oil (not the fun smoke) either. Then you get up and go to the alley and bowl your 3 games and shoot 650. You get off work and you can't even make a fist because you have been picking up fenders all day long up to 4,000 in a day and putting them into a machine.

No knock on elite bowlers but being a great athlete is something you are born with not something you learn.

[Amyers]

Ok a few things that I've noticed from some of the posts in this thread:

1. A lot of people here are taking offense at Robb's post because they are lumping themselves in with the group Rob is talking about. Very few if any of the posters on these boards fall into that group. I know who the type of bowler Rob is referring to they average 220-230 on a THS in their house wont bowl tournaments in other houses or when their house isn't putting the home shot. They buy a ball because it's the newest release form their favorite manufacturer and they stand where they stand because that's where they like to play and any shot that requires them to do something else is defective.

2. We as in this group are not your "average bowler" if we were we wouldn't waste our time trying to learn about the bowling balls we use, watching videos to learn new techniques, or generally trying to improve our games.

3. The professionals in this sport are infinitely better than your house hack at your local alley. I share a coach with a local WPBA player and I sometimes get to work with the coach at the same time as her or watch her in their lessons she bowls at a level I will seriously never entertain. I've also bowled against her and even won a few does that mean I have any shot of bowling at her level? Heck no their is a huge difference between winning a match and routinely bowling better than someone week in and week out on different patterns and houses and making the cut.

4. THS is dumbing the sport down. Sorry but it's the truth. I spend too much time bowling in travel leagues and challenge shot leagues and watch guys quit because they don't understand the basics of moving your feet and their equipment. I think it goes to show what this thread originally envisioned on that league on THS conditions around 80+% of those guys average higher than I do and even I would consider them more talented bowlers than I but also on that league this season I won 63% of my points. Why? I understand how my equipment works and I'm able to adjust better than a reasonable amount of my competition.

5. If you are a good knowledgeable bowler bowling against another talent and luck will determine the winner. Talent is a huge advantage but without proper knowledge the talent maybe misused we all know people on our leagues who throw a beautiful balls with good technique but are hindered by making poor ball decisions and adjustment choices I bowl with one as a teammate. Sad thing about it is if he thinks about it to much it simply destroys his game. He's still younger mid 20's but I don't know if he will ever fully realize the talent he has due to his inability to make use of the knowledge that's available.

[MICHAEL]

I AGREE with your comments 100 percent bud!! Maybe 101 percent. I have bowled the sports pattern experience ONCE here in Kansas City! I blame the USBC TOO! I know some bowlers in my area, one being a Pat Henderson, who is in the bowling hall of fame! HE DOES NOT, and will not bowl sports patterns! He carries around a 225 average now at 60 years old, but does have a far share of 800's, and 300's bowing nothing but house oil. Finding Sports oil in the Kansas city area, is impossible! I guess its because most don't want to put out the effort to learn how to bowl them, or their ego's are just to fragile to handle the thought of taking on what the BIG BOYS do on TV! LOL,,, LOL, how many times, I wounder, do bowlers with their 225 averages say: " Damn, honey,,, I have a higher average then those guys!" LOL. Yes I found out what a challage, and FUN time it can be bowling the Sports patterns with Jason 3 years ago in Liberty Missouri!

Bowling Centers should be required to have a variety of leagues that are Sports patterns that they CHANGE EACH week, along with the house shot. It would be good for the SPORT, and good for the bowler. Coaching then,,,,, COACHING THEN would take on an even more critical meaning!

A good name for those Sports leagues might be:

1. So you think your hot **** league

2. Real men/women bowl sports

3. write in your league name..... LOL!

[bowl1820]

I am not saying that these great bowlers should not be listed. I'm certainly not comparing their coaching talent to my own. I'm sure some of them are great coaches.

My point is that it is sad that many of the top athletes in our sport have to focus on coaching to make a living because they can no longer earn a decent living by competing at a professional living. There is no full-time Tour, and the events that are left, even the majors pay so little that the number of bowlers who can earn enough even to survive by competing is pathetically small.

Even in bowling's heyday there were few pro bowlers actually making their entire living from bowling. Most all had some other job putting bread on the table.

While some may want to supplement their income from bowling by coaching, Another possibility is the top athletes may just want to pass on their knowledge and experience.

Or they have been bowling for along time and realize they can't compete forever and so shift their focus to coaching.

or Like the actor who is tired of acting and wants to direct.

For some reason, my statements are often taken in a personal way, with many of you believing that I think that I am better than you are. I don't. As a bowling writer, it is my JOB to comment on the state of bowling at all levels. I am not an "elitist," whatever that is.

Yes, I've seen that happen in many of your posts and people commenting on it. To be honest reading this thread I thought myself "Boy Rob is coming off sounding elitist"(and come on Rob, you use the word elite in your posts and you don't know what elitist/elitism is?)

I'm not sure how to say this, But it's not what you write, but how you write it.

That's why writers have editors & proofreaders etc. Someone who will say "Hey in this paragraph here you just alienated or appear to be alienating the majority of the readers, was that your intent?" and if you say "No" then they hand it back for rewrite and maybe with some suggestions on how to rephrase it to better get the point across. Being that you write for BTM I sure that at some point a editor has looked at your articles and questioned or suggested rewriting some part of it to better get your point across.

A rewrite example would be your post where you said "Okay, let me clear up a few things here.... 1) " That was more how you should said it earlier.

That's the thing about most users writing on forums, blogs is we don't have editors. So it's important to sit back and read what we've written and consider how others will view or interpret it.

Example: "it is sad that many of the top athletes in our sport have to focus on coaching" there are those that would read that and think "It's sad to become a coach? Wow coaching must be a lowly position according to that."

I simply believe that bowling at the highest levels (Professional) is in serious trouble and is in danger of becoming extinct. Do I blame the existence of the THS for that? Yes, at least partially. But I do not blame the house bowler who is not aware of the differences in the game at the professional level for thinking that he can compete with the professionals because of the inflated average that he is able to maintain. I blame the USBC, the organization that has been entrusted with the responsibility for maintaining the integrity of the sport, for dropping the ball in terms of setting standards for lane conditions and for allowing bowling balls that have taken much of the athleticism out of the game and replaced it with the knowledge required to compete at the top levels of the game. What kind of audience would televised golf have if every weekend warrior could go out and shoot 65 at his home course?

As for this, it's discussion for another thread.

[fordman1]

Michael if you owned a bowling center and was trying your best to make a living would you want someone telling you that you had to put out a bunch of different oil patterns for you league bowlers? Go ahead and Pi$$ off the people who are keeping your head above water. Offer you PBA or sport shot league on a Sunday morning at 9 A.M. or in the summer. Any other time you will loose money.
As long as I have ever been bowling I have never heard any 225-230 bowler say I average as high as the pro's I should go on tour. BS, maybe some novice watching might say so but no real bowler would be that dumb.
What people don't like is someone talking down to them.....

[Tony]

ROB:
Calling others ignorant says a lot more about the person saying it.

Perhaps you should consider the definition of the word, and then look back to the original post, where the subject was does knowledge outweigh talent in bowling.
Instead of addressing the question you made accusations and tried to twist the conversation to your normal soapbox " All regular league bowlers suck"

Recall the original query : Does knowledge outweigh talent in bowling
Then read your first response.
Then look up that definition of ignorant.
Then consider not only the conclusion you might draw from that, consider the conclusion of the average league bowler.

While you feel my comment "typify the house bowler who doesn't think he needs to understand anything about the game" and is ignorant.

I feel your comments are unbecoming of someone who's supposed to be a professional coach.

I would be glad to pose my question to any PBA pro and would be interested to hear their response, in fact I'll ask a couple of people I personally know,
one is a PGA tour participant, and the other a Gold coach, I can say with 100% certainty they won't jump off on a tangent about THS and they won't call me names if I pose
reasonable responses questioning them about their opinion.
They are fine people and have earned my respect by being objective, informative, and showing they have knowledge of not only the game but also of how to debate without resorting to name calling.

[Tony]

Somewhere in all this we should have come up with a real answer.

I would venture to say like many sports, raw talent can make you successful at the amateur level, but it will take talent plus knowledge to be a success at the Professional level, if you possess only knowledge and no talent, then all you can do, is coach.

[RobLV1]

Perhaps you should consider the definition of the word, and then look back to the original post, where the subject was does knowledge outweigh talent in bowling.
Instead of addressing the question you made accusations and tried to twist the conversation to your normal soapbox " All regular league bowlers suck"

Recall the original query : Does knowledge outweigh talent in bowling
Then read your first response.

Definition of ignorant: lacking knowledge or information

My first response: "You have just done a very good job of defining the problem with the typical house shot. The guy who gets up there and throws strike after strike, week after week, year after year thinks he's good because he can do this on a forgiving house pattern. You're right in that you don't need many smarts or much knowledge to bowl on a THS. Go to a real pattern, however, and you better have a good understanding of bowling balls and ball motion or you are going to find out very quickly that you're really not very good at all."

First of all, if you look at the definition of ignorant, it is not name-calling. "Stupid" is name-calling. Ignorant simply means that someone is lacking knowledge or information which is exactly what I said in my first response. For some reason you are choosing to take my words as a personal attack on you. They are not. I am simply responding to that original question of "Does knowledge outweigh talent in bowling." It is not a simple question for the very reasons that so many of these posts point out. Like it or not, you do not need a whole lot of knowledge to bowl on a THS. That's a fact. It is also a fact that you do need a lot of knowledge to bowl on competitive sport patterns. And, by the way, I have never said, nor do I believe that "All regular league bowlers suck." As Bowl1820 so eloquently pointed out, there is no editor here to proofread to make sure that no-one is going to get their feelings hurt.

[RobLV1]

Somewhere in all this we should have come up with a real answer.

I would venture to say like many sports, raw talent can make you successful at the amateur level, but it will take talent plus knowledge to be a success at the Professional level, if you possess only knowledge and no talent, then all you can do, is coach.

Again, there is a totally different skill set involved in coaching than there is in bowling. Good coaches possess the skills needed to teach others to bowl; they may or may not be good bowlers. Good bowlers possess the skills needed to bowl; they may or may not be good coaches.

[Tony]

Definition of ignorant: lacking knowledge or information

My first response: "You have just done a very good job of defining the problem with the typical house shot. The guy who gets up there and throws strike after strike, week after week, year after year thinks he's good because he can do this on a forgiving house pattern. You're right in that you don't need many smarts or much knowledge to bowl on a THS. Go to a real pattern, however, and you better have a good understanding of bowling balls and ball motion or you are going to find out very quickly that you're really not very good at all."

First of all, if you look at the definition of ignorant, it is not name-calling. "Stupid" is name-calling. Ignorant simply means that someone is lacking knowledge or information which is exactly what I said in my first response. For some reason you are choosing to take my words as a personal attack on you. They are not. I am simply responding to that original question of "Does knowledge outweigh talent in bowling." It is not a simple question for the very reasons that so many of these posts point out. Like it or not, you do not need a whole lot of knowledge to bowl on a THS. That's a fact. It is also a fact that you do need a lot of knowledge to bowl on competitive sport patterns. And, by the way, I have never said, nor do I believe that "All regular league bowlers suck." As Bowl1820 so eloquently pointed out, there is no editor here to proofread to make sure that no-one is going to get their feelings hurt.

You may want to consider the impression the reader gets when writing responses or articles. The impression you feel all regular league bowlers are no talent hacks is one I'm sure many readers have felt.
Someone who writes for a living should also understand that calling someone ignorant is generally intended and nearly always taken as an insult.
If you need an editor to remind you of that you might be showing your own ignorance. No disrespect intended.