Excessive 10 pin leaves

[Tinyfxds]

We always have discussions about this on league nights. Last Friday was the worst for me. I had four straight seven pins(lefty) on pocket shots. I know that stepping back or slowing down is the fix but all of us agree that the balls themselves may have somethign to do with it. I don't ever remeber leaving many seven pins when I had my Burgundy Hammer many years ago. That ball had great pin action and I wasn't throwing it much slower than I do now. It just seems that some of these balls have so much drive and power that they are blowing the pins past the corner ones. I suppose though that you could argue the fact that we should be able to control what the ball does with speed and entry angle. I do know that since I've switched from the old school urethanes to newer and newer compounds I have left more seven pins. I guess that's just something I'll have to work on. Gotta love this game it never lets you get complacent.

[Artist Bowler]

Thank you for this exhaustive post. I have often started my league evening with solid hits, and as the games progress the ball has slightly more hook. It could be that I'm warmed up and throwing more efficiently, or the lane condition changes. Anyway, as I often adjust to flare the ball wider it starts hitting light and leaving a 7-pin, as I am a southpaw. I play tonight and tomorrow and will try your suggestions. I think the idea is t observe more closely the impact and where the 4 pin is going. On most shots I tend to watch the ball approach the pocket then look over at the 7-pin to see if it goes down.

I've been told a slightly light hit is good to get mixing pin action, as you talk about in your last paragraph, but this can lead to many 7-pin leaves as well. It usually works well because I very rarely leave a 5-pin on any first ball. But I have left some 7-10 splits lately on balls that looked good coming into the pocket. Perhaps these were also light hits.

Last question: how important is rotation for pin action? I imagine the ideal way to bowl is to get maximum repeatable rotation on every strike ball while finding the best line. Often I have to back off or else I get too much hook.

Thank you for your response when you get a chance.

[aussiedave]

Thank you for this exhaustive post. I have often started my league evening with solid hits, and as the games progress the ball has slightly more hook. It could be that I'm warmed up and throwing more efficiently, or the lane condition changes. Anyway, as I often adjust to flare the ball wider it starts hitting light and leaving a 7-pin, as I am a southpaw. I play tonight and tomorrow and will try your suggestions. I think the idea is t observe more closely the impact and where the 4 pin is going. On most shots I tend to watch the ball approach the pocket then look over at the 7-pin to see if it goes down.

I've been told a slightly light hit is good to get mixing pin action, as you talk about in your last paragraph, but this can lead to many 7-pin leaves as well. It usually works well because I very rarely leave a 5-pin on any first ball. But I have left some 7-10 splits lately on balls that looked good coming into the pocket. Perhaps these were also light hits.

Last question: how important is rotation for pin action? I imagine the ideal way to bowl is to get maximum repeatable rotation on every strike ball while finding the best line. Often I have to back off or else I get too much hook.

Thank you for your response when you get a chance.

I have had the same problem as many here have voiced for two weeks straight now. To compensate, I think I was naturally trying to throw the ball a bit harder, then on my last game last week, I tried something different - I deliberately went slower with a lower ball hold in the stance and a lower pushaway.
It worked straight away. I then read the next day that by slowing the ball down, you allow it to catch the lane and start rolling into the pocket once it gets off the oil. You want this as it allows that little bit of acceleration of the lift you put on the ball to take effect. This is where you get some power as you hit and it worked fine for me.
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[aussiedave]

We always have discussions about this on league nights. Last Friday was the worst for me. I had four straight seven pins(lefty) on pocket shots. I know that stepping back or slowing down is the fix but all of us agree that the balls themselves may have somethign to do with it. I don't ever remeber leaving many seven pins when I had my Burgundy Hammer many years ago. That ball had great pin action and I wasn't throwing it much slower than I do now. It just seems that some of these balls have so much drive and power that they are blowing the pins past the corner ones. I suppose though that you could argue the fact that we should be able to control what the ball does with speed and entry angle. I do know that since I've switched from the old school urethanes to newer and newer compounds I have left more seven pins. I guess that's just something I'll have to work on. Gotta love this game it never lets you get complacent.

I prefer urethane as it allows me to bowl in my comfort zone as I ain't getting any younger and I have a few minor physical niggles so I don't want to aggravate them. (56 this year which ain't old but not as strong as I used to be either)
I use a Columbia "The Classic" and my old Blue Hammer and with both I am experiencing a frustrating amount of 10 pin leaves - occasionally I will get the pin rolling around in the gutter pop up enough to tap the ten over but not often enough. I wish I had half as much pin action as I am seeing in the resin balls all around me and I rarely ever get a messenger - I know that those indicate another problem, and you shouldn't rely on them but they do indicate pin action is happening out there.
The Hammer certainly does hit hard but when you get 3 - 4 tens every game you start to wonder - at least for my game.
You talk about 7's instead of tens so I am guessing you are a lefty? I would suggest some basic adjustments may work - if you are slightly light in the pocket, which the lefty 7 indicates, then you should step back about 6 inches or left one board and aim at the same spot.
You are right about our game - there are so many variables and it keeps you thinking. Even different styles of bowlers on the other team can move the oil around differently from week to week, so the only thing one can do is keep making those basic adjustments - every week!
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[unclemantis]

I think that 10 pin leaves is because the ball is coming in at an angle greater than 6 degrees into the pocket.

[GeoLes]

Very good exhaustive analysis. I will studying it for a while. The best advise I have seen was to study not your mark, line, or break point, but the ball path through the pins. The ideal line is 1-3-5-8. (actually as the ball goes through the rack, it will deflect through the 9-pin, but unobstrucred it will go through the 8 pin.)

The best advise I got for corner pin leaves is to begin approach a little closer or further away accordingly. If a perfectly good line begins to 10-pin leave, I learned to do a 3/1 adjustment (move 3 boards left, place ball through mark 1-board right). I found that this give the ball more time to find a better angle through the pin deck.

[unclemantis]

Very good exhaustive analysis. I will studying it for a while. The best advise I have seen was to study not your mark, line, or break point, but the ball path through the pins. The ideal line is 1-3-5-8. (actually as the ball goes through the rack, it will deflect through the 9-pin, but unobstrucred it will go through the 8 pin.)

The best advise I got for corner pin leaves is to begin approach a little closer or further away accordingly. If a perfectly good line begins to 10-pin leave, I learned to do a 3/1 adjustment (move 3 boards left, place ball through mark 1-board right). I found that this give the ball more time to find a better angle through the pin deck.

Great suggestion GeoLes. Also getting practice in picking up the 10 pin is always key as well. I am now up to 75 percent!!!!

[Tampabaybob]

I believe the biggest change you can make to "avoid" corner pins, 7 or 10, is to slightly change the entry angle into the pocket. That means an adjustment on the approach, lay down at the line and breakpoint. Below is a portion of an article that answers some of the dilemmas but not all of them.

"You’ve heard on the television broadcast recently that the pros are concerned about how their ball is going through the pins. Carry equals pay check, after all. A rolling ball will always hit harder than a hooking ball. A ball that is still hooking is searching for its equi- librium and tends to leave a lot of back row. A rolling ball keeps the pins low and allows the pins to have influence over its path. That’s important since deflection is not the enemy, although too much of a good thing (like de- flection or ice cream) can be harmful. Thus, a rolling ball is much more devastating going through the pins than a hooking ball.
Hook is actually a ball attempting not to skid—the result of the forces of angular and linear momentum becoming one. Think of a tire on ice. The tire is rotating but still skid- ding. When it's no longer on the ice, the tire will move in the direction it is rotating. It's the same with a ball. Once it leaves the oil and can make contact with the lane (we call that con- tact friction or traction), the ball moves in the direction of its rotation, hopefully toward the pocket. This move is often called “hook”. It's not. It's just the point where the ball changed direction. If a ball is still attempting to change directions, it's also still skidding.

Susie Minshew, USBC Gold Coach - BTM Jan 2013 issue

Hope his sheds some light on the issue.

[unclemantis]

I believe the biggest change you can make to "avoid" corner pins, 7 or 10, is to slightly change the entry angle into the pocket. That means an adjustment on the approach, lay down at the line and breakpoint. Below is a portion of an article that answers some of the dilemmas but not all of them.

"You’ve heard on the television broadcast recently that the pros are concerned about how their ball is going through the pins. Carry equals pay check, after all. A rolling ball will always hit harder than a hooking ball. A ball that is still hooking is searching for its equi- librium and tends to leave a lot of back row. A rolling ball keeps the pins low and allows the pins to have influence over its path. That’s important since deflection is not the enemy, although too much of a good thing (like de- flection or ice cream) can be harmful. Thus, a rolling ball is much more devastating going through the pins than a hooking ball.
Hook is actually a ball attempting not to skid—the result of the forces of angular and linear momentum becoming one. Think of a tire on ice. The tire is rotating but still skid- ding. When it's no longer on the ice, the tire will move in the direction it is rotating. It's the same with a ball. Once it leaves the oil and can make contact with the lane (we call that con- tact friction or traction), the ball moves in the direction of its rotation, hopefully toward the pocket. This move is often called “hook”. It's not. It's just the point where the ball changed direction. If a ball is still attempting to change directions, it's also still skidding.

Susie Minshew, USBC Gold Coach - BTM Jan 2013 issue

Hope his sheds some light on the issue.

I usually stand at 35 and throw out between 3 and 4, but last night twords the end I ended up at 30 and throwing between 1 and 2 and I did notice the strikes hitting harder.

[Tampabaybob]

Being aware of where the oil is moving is a very hard thing to learn or actually know when it's happening. On another thread I added a piece of info about lane oil in response to someone talking about carrydown. There really isn't that much carry down oil anymore, sure there's always going to be a little, as compared to when we all shot on wooden lanes. With the synthetics, and the new technology balls, oil moves and basically creates a dry path where you're shooting. Looking at a cross section of a lane oil pattern (and these technical guys have done it) the balls will create something like a dry valley and move the oil left or right of the target. So if you're shooting the 7-8 board along with 5 or 6 other guys, and assuming you're all being daily accurate, after about 6 or 7 frames, that oil is somewhat dried up, i.e.; your ball starts hooking more, and you should be thinking about moving your feet and target left where the oil has moved to.

Here's the article...hope it helps..

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/..._slowinski.pdf