USBC sanctioned versus non-sanctioned leagues

[Aslan]

This came up in another thread so I thought rather than derail that thread...why not start a new one (you're welcome Bowl1820).

This question has come up on a couple other bowling forums over the years...but never with any type of resolution. So the question is; "Is there an advantage to playing in sanctioned (USBC) leagues?" "Is it better to bowl in non-sanctioned leagues?" What do you prefer? Why?

My personal opinion is that I prefer sanctioned leagues. I believe back in the 70s and 80s...it was actually very uncommon to come across a non-sanctioned league. And I think they should go back to that...make all leagues sanctioned. And my reasons are as follows:

1) Why not make it "official"? A non-sanctioned league...in the eyes of the USBC...doesn't count...it never happened. It's like an NFL player that wants credit for breaking 20,000 yards career rushing but is counting not only his CFL stats...but also his college stats, the 1 year he played in the XFL, the 3 years in arena football, and countless Sundays where he just ran around in his backyard.

This recently came up with Ichiro Suzuki. He surpassed a hitting milestone that had never been reached by a professional baseball player...but ONLY if you count his japanese stats. So should they count? It's a different league....different rules...different levels of skill. And that's like a bowler that says he has a 200+ average, 9 x 300 games, and a 900 series...but no USBC number. Do those stats "mean" anything? If I bowl a 300 game in practice or during cosmic bowling...or no tap even....isn't that the same as bowling one in non-sanctioned league play?

Like the THS vs. Sport pattern vs. tournament vs. pro arguement that has been discussed here recently. If a person is "good" (> 175 average)...shouldn't they be expected to start playing in USBC sanctioned leagues rather than some Saturday morning fun league? Before we start chastising bowlers for not "stepping it up" and bowling against the big boys on sport patterns...shouldn't we criticize those afraid to even bowl in an "official" league??

2) It's $15-$24 a YEAR! Not per game, not per night, not even per league. You'll spend more on one night of beer and food than you will on USBC dues all year. And even if you don't win a "prize" or "honor"...shouldn't we all share the burden of promoting the sport through the USBC? It's like taxes...either everyone pays a little % of their income for the greater good...or we just rely on individuals to be "generous". Well, guess what...I only personally know ONE person that would give away a large % of his income to help others...and he'd only give it to some children's charity...not to pay for government. If only people that NEED welfare, unemployment, food stamps, head start were responsible for funding those programs...they wouldn't exist and our "needy" would be like circa 1200AD begging for alms and table scraps outside of churches.

Okay...that was too political...but the point is...I'm sure the USBC does a lot to promote the sport and grow it and make it better for everyone. But if leagues trend towards "non-sanctioned"...the USBC goes away...and bowling becomes something like shuffleboard, badmitton, or curling...where there's a few pockets of leagues and interest...but generally it disappears.

[circlecity]

Non sanctioned leagues are just organized "open bowling" in my opinion. I prefer sanctioned leagues.

[MICHAEL]

What was the question?

What ever it was, I do agree with you 100 percent on the question, or statement..

One thing that they do now and have for some time is KEEP RECORDS,,, league averages, achievements ect! That alone is COOL to Iceman!
Those records will be there as long as they exist!

[e-tank]

although sanctioned is cheap, i dont see why it should be forced upon people as this is america not communist russia. Im only really pro sanction for the usbc rules specifcally about lane conditions if there is one. My house is horrible when it comes to my league about having proper conditions. Obv if you wanna be more serious about your bowling, sanctioned is the way to go but for a fun league like mine(which has very good bowlers), i see no reason for it to be sanctioned.

[tr33frog]

As i said in the other post, unless it is for awards or for people that are bowling in tournaments, the advantages and differences are slight. At least where I am, we get the same lane conditions as the sanctioned league. Even one of the guys that has worked there for a while says he can't see a real reason to bother with it. In the end, it is me versus the lane condititions. I know we are not shooting a pro shot very regularly if at all, but neither is the sanctioned league right next to me.

All things being equal, I'm good enough I would chose a sanctioned league, but since I'm not bowling in tournaments it really doesn't mean one darn thing what my average is and what I can bowl. I understand exactly that I'm a once-a-week bowler with 210 average on an incosistent house shot. Really for me it is a question of what counts more, being sanctioned or shooting on a pro shot. While you may believe that sanctioned makes your score "real", if your not shooting on something you will see in tournaments you really are just bowling in a fun league no matter how serious you take it.

[Aslan]

although sanctioned is cheap, i dont see why it should be forced upon people as this is america not communist russia. Im only really pro sanction for the usbc rules specifcally about lane conditions if there is one. My house is horrible when it comes to my league about having proper conditions. Obv if you wanna be more serious about your bowling, sanctioned is the way to go but for a fun league like mine(which has very good bowlers), i see no reason for it to be sanctioned.

1) It's not a political science dilemma. Most sports…when you play, you're part of some league/organization. I used to play hockey…guess what…every year…USA Hockey membership for like $25-$45 (but you did get a monthly magazine). Wanna play baseball? Little League organization. Wanna play youth soccer? Pop Warner? All organizations that govern the play.

2) If your center is horrible about lane conditions…and you think they wouldn't meet USBC standards…then how can you be sure your scores are legitimate? What if your alley used lighter pins? Or a shorter lane? Or it was concave slightly in the middle? Not to mention…if it's not governed by the USBC…you don't need to use an approved ball. Thats why leagues SHOULD be sanctioned in my opinion…so each center has to follow the same rules and scores can be compared apples to apples. Certainly lane conditions are going to differ. My alley, in my opinion, is WAY easier to score high on than where I bowl on Thursdays. But people used to heavy oil and high revs…they can't stand my alley…way too dry. But…if both leagues were sanctioned (Thursdays isn't)…it's still apples to apples.

3) I don't understand the excuse, "I just bowl for fun." So is it "not fun" to bowl in a sanctioned league? Because I have more fun in my Friday sanctioned league than I do in my non-sanctioned league. I have fun in both…because I'm bowling…and I think the Thursday league is a bit more relaxed…but I thrive on competition and I like the idea that my scores are going to be recorded and "count" for something. Plus…with it being more serious…you don't have the stupid s*it going on like mega-sandbaggers or guys showing up for 2 weeks then not showing up anymore…or guys just throwing ball 25mph drunk off their ***. I'm not saying it isn't fun on Fridays or it's "serious"…it's not…it's fun and a good time…good food…good drinks…it's just minus most of the BS. So I don't buy that in order for a league to be "fun" it has to be non-sanctioned. I know I'm phrasing it differently…but when people say "I'm just having fun" it implies that a sanctioning of a league would somehow make it "not fun". I don't get that.



I understand exactly that I'm a once-a-week bowler with 210 average on an incosistent house shot. Really for me it is a question of what counts more, being sanctioned or shooting on a pro shot. While you may believe that sanctioned makes your score "real", if your not shooting on something you will see in tournaments you really are just bowling in a fun league no matter how serious you take it.

Obviously we're in agreement about progressing to a sport pattern, etc… But you can't ever make that step until you get a sanctioned book average. So while the difference between sanctioned and non-sanctioned is small (same alleys, same lanes, same conditions)…one is official and one is not. And you need that official average to enter official tournaments…and play on sport patterns, etc…

I don't think it's about "taking it seriously". I'm not good enough to take it seriously. If I did…I'd be even more bummed out. I think it's a matter of whether you're "league bowling" or just casual bowling. Because a 300 game in a non-sanctioned league is just as valuable as a 300 game in practice or during cosmic bowling at the end of the day. I mean, haven't we had forum members that have come in here saying they have 5-7 300 games and a 900 series…yet when you look up their USBC number it shows a 171 average with no honors/awards?? then the person responds, "Oh…well…those were non-sanctioned." Then they don't count. They never happened. I can tell everyone at my workplace that I hit a 500ft home run or a 300 yard drive…but what do I have to prove it? Maybe that 300 yard drive was with a strong wind at my back and an illegal golf ball. Maybe that 500ft home run was actually a 150 ft fly ball and I just tend to "embellish". And thats the key value of sanctioning. Like Iceman said (in his rather disconjointed way)…once you do it sanctioned…it's in the records forever. It never goes away. Some alleys even put little plaques up…or at least they used to with your name on them. I doubt they'll do that if you get a 300 during cosmic bowling.

And, just to be clear, I'm not calling anyone a liar. I have no reason to doubt anything…I'm just stating my opinion of why I think sanctioning is the way to go. I'm sure in sanctioned leagues…the stats people on here are touting would be the same.

[circlecity]

Doesn't the USBC use some of that money to promote bowling and other charity stuff? I really don't know what they do. :confused:

[e-tank]

1) It's not a political science dilemma. Most sports…when you play, you're part of some league/organization. I used to play hockey…guess what…every year…USA Hockey membership for like $25-$45 (but you did get a monthly magazine). Wanna play baseball? Little League organization. Wanna play youth soccer? Pop Warner? All organizations that govern the play.

If i were to continue with your example then league itself would be free but youd pay to be apart of the usbc

2) If your center is horrible about lane conditions…and you think they wouldn't meet USBC standards…then how can you be sure your scores are legitimate? What if your alley used lighter pins? Or a shorter lane? Or it was concave slightly in the middle? Not to mention…if it's not governed by the USBC…you don't need to use an approved ball. Thats why leagues SHOULD be sanctioned in my opinion…so each center has to follow the same rules and scores can be compared apples to apples. Certainly lane conditions are going to differ. My alley, in my opinion, is WAY easier to score high on than where I bowl on Thursdays. But people used to heavy oil and high revs…they can't stand my alley…way too dry. But…if both leagues were sanctioned (Thursdays isn't)…it's still apples to apples.

the center is usbc certified so the lanes and pins are fine. The issue lies in backends saturated with oil at times or just in general, not clean backends. Jw who cares if a ball is usbc certified? Unless its going to bowl for you, i dont see the big deal

3) I don't understand the excuse, "I just bowl for fun." So is it "not fun" to bowl in a sanctioned league? Because I have more fun in my Friday sanctioned league than I do in my non-sanctioned league. I have fun in both…because I'm bowling…and I think the Thursday league is a bit more relaxed…but I thrive on competition and I like the idea that my scores are going to be recorded and "count" for something. Plus…with it being more serious…you don't have the stupid s*it going on like mega-sandbaggers or guys showing up for 2 weeks then not showing up anymore…or guys just throwing ball 25mph drunk off their ***. I'm not saying it isn't fun on Fridays or it's "serious"…it's not…it's fun and a good time…good food…good drinks…it's just minus most of the BS. So I don't buy that in order for a league to be "fun" it has to be non-sanctioned. I know I'm phrasing it differently…but when people say "I'm just having fun" it implies that a sanctioning of a league would somehow make it "not fun". I don't get that.

never said a sanctioned league isnt fun. My point was that it isnt a serious league so why bother going through with a usbc sanction? My league is a vegas league so yes most members drink. Never had an issue with drunk people. Never had an issue with cheating. Sandbaggers are in any league sanctioned or not. Lastly i could care less about my scores being recorded. Scores only matter to me so as long as i record them, im good with that.



answered in bold

[Mudpuppy]

Your posts are way too long to read Aslan - cliff notes please.

If a league isn't sanctioned I will not bowl, period.

[Aslan]

Your posts are way too long to read Aslan - cliff notes please.

If a league isn't sanctioned I will not bowl, period.

I keep forgetting about the Michigan contingent and the sub-standard reading comprehension. :p

But you appear to have grasped the concept just fine.

To me...a person that claims to have an average > 170 and 300 games and 700+ series yet has no USBC number and doesn't bowl in sanctioned leagues...is like:

1) That guy you golf with that claims he's a scratch golfer yet EVERY time you golf with him he shoots about 35 over and claims it's because THAT golf course doesn't maintain it's greens properly.

or
2) That kid in school that was really good at sports in gym class but never actually joined a team.

I played hockey with a kid in high school that was actually quite skilled. But our high school didn't have a team and he was too lazy to join an organized travel team. But I think it was more than just laziness. Like our previous discussions about THS vs. sport patterns and how afraid most "good" bowlers are of getting outside their comfort zone...I think he was "afraid"...that if he actually played against "real" players...he wouldn't be as good (comparitively speaking)...so he never bothered. He was probably good enough to "maybe" get a college scholarship had he applied himself...but he was content just being the best player at midnight every other friday for drop-in hockey. And thats sad (in my opinion).

[dnhoffman]

Your posts are way too long to read Aslan - cliff notes please.

If a league isn't sanctioned I will not bowl, period.

Wall of Text Lands a Critical Hit.

You Die.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/392/685/a9c.png

[e-tank]

I keep forgetting about the Michigan contingent and the sub-standard reading comprehension. :p

But you appear to have grasped the concept just fine.

To me...a person that claims to have an average > 170 and 300 games and 700+ series yet has no USBC number and doesn't bowl in sanctioned leagues...is like:

1) That guy you golf with that claims he's a scratch golfer yet EVERY time you golf with him he shoots about 35 over and claims it's because THAT golf course doesn't maintain it's greens properly.

or
2) That kid in school that was really good at sports in gym class but never actually joined a team.

I played hockey with a kid in high school that was actually quite skilled. But our high school didn't have a team and he was too lazy to join an organized travel team. But I think it was more than just laziness. Like our previous discussions about THS vs. sport patterns and how afraid most "good" bowlers are of getting outside their comfort zone...I think he was "afraid"...that if he actually played against "real" players...he wouldn't be as good (comparitively speaking)...so he never bothered. He was probably good enough to "maybe" get a college scholarship had he applied himself...but he was content just being the best player at midnight every other friday for drop-in hockey. And thats sad (in my opinion).

lol seeing as i fit your criteria, my stats are obv fake(even though i have nothing to gain from faking) and i am too scared to bowl with "real bowlers"(even though my league has 4-5 230avg bowlers and a few more 200+ avg). I think the problem is that youre trying to make a blanket statement for something that cant be blanketed

[Aslan]

a

(for hoffman and those with limited attention spans)

[tr33frog]

1) That guy you golf with that claims he's a scratch golfer yet EVERY time you golf with him he shoots about 35 over and claims it's because THAT golf course doesn't maintain it's greens properly.


What if he golfs with you still hits scratch? I actually feel more pressure bowling with friends or coworkers for the first time, and still am almost always able to rip off a 200. I've held a 201 average in a sanctioned league as a sub in the late 90's, I don't feel I bowl any different in sanctioned vs unsanctioned. I'm still the clean up bowler with the pressure to win/close out a game, and still want the best out of every game I can.

If you want to stick to the golf analogies, do hole in ones only count during a PGA or school match?

[Aslan]

If you want to stick to the golf analogies, do hole in ones only count during a PGA or school match?

Well…now you're REALLY opening a can of worms. Where's d-hoff with some random train derailment picture? Because we've discussed this in the past…but see…back in the day…a 300 game was very similar to a hole in one in that it was rare. Nowadays…3-6 months of bowling regularly and you're almost expected to have at least one. I would say nowadays…300 games are between hole in ones and eagles in terms of frequency (using golf analogies). But not eagles on par 3s…(thats for girls) nor eagles on a par 5 where ya just happened to get lucky and cut the corner. I'm saying eagles on a decent length par 4.

Oh…and to answer that question…"yes with an *". Golf actually treats unwitnessed hole-in-ones the same way bowling treats non-sanctioned 300 games. They get "counted"…in terms of reporting them to the newspaper (if your alley does that)…the difference is that bowling won't count it in terms of USBC unless the league is sanctioned. Where as even an unwitnessed hole in one will be listed in golf's version…the "golf register" (or something like that).

Actually…thats a good comparison because in both cases…it tends to cause a little "apprehension" on the part of the player…where as a golfer would much rather hit a hole-in-one in a tournament or a league or "at least" in front of a witness. It's just like a bowler that bowls an unsanctioned 300 will almost always wish it had been in a sanctioned league. The grey areas are your "first" 300 and your "X" 300. Even though sanctioned would be preferred, I have to think if it's your first one…you're still pretty darn stoked. And if it's your 5th-29th…you probably don't care because it's not as big of a deal.

[tr33frog]

I think this entire conversation has made me want to bowl less in a sanctioned league than before we started, makes it sound like all wine and cheese. "Well, my 300 is more important and difficult than yours, because some orginization I pay said it is." ROFL.

[dnhoffman]

I think this entire conversation has made me want to bowl less in a sanctioned league than before we started, makes it sound like all wine and cheese. "Well, my 300 is more important and difficult than yours, because some orginization I pay said it is." ROFL.

"Neither the views of Aslan, nor the comments found within his walls of text, accurately represent the opinions of the majority of rational sane bowlers participating in USBC sanctioned leagues. Additionally, please understand that most bowlers participating in organized leagues, sanctioned or otherwise, are shaking their collective heads at this entire thread."

Sincerely,
Dnhoffman, President.
Partnership for an Aslan Free America.

[Aslan]

I think this entire conversation has made me want to bowl less in a sanctioned league than before we started, makes it sound like all wine and cheese. "Well, my 300 is more important and difficult than yours, because some orginization I pay said it is." ROFL.

Okay…thats fair. But where does it end? At what point does a 300 mean less?? If it was bowled with an illegal ball? Maybe a 17lb ball or a ball that is bigger than average? What about no-tap? See…everyone wants all the benefits of being able to brag about their great scores…yet they don't want to pay $20/year to make them "official"…and they act like it's a waste of $20. It's $20 per year for crying out loud!! It's NOT the money!! And sanctioned leagues are just as fun as non-sanctioned leagues…so that argument doesn't fly either. And that makes me wonder…makes me suspicious. If people are so, so, so adamantly against having their scores "sanctioned"…why?? For $20/year??? Come on.

[Aslan]

"Neither the views of Aslan, nor the comments found within his walls of text, accurately represent the opinions of the majority of rational sane bowlers participating in USBC sanctioned leagues. Additionally, please understand that most bowlers participating in organized leagues, sanctioned or otherwise, are shaking their collective heads at this entire thread."

Sincerely,
Dnhoffman, President.
Partnership for an Aslan Free America.

Given that you shake your head at everything I post…you kinda lose credibility. I mean, if you pick and choose which opinions you have a strong reaction to…then it's more reasonable. But just seeing "posted by Aslan" and immediately running in to post some derogatory remark just makes you a "flamer" (in the internet sense).

[dnhoffman]

Given that you shake your head at everything I post…you kinda lose credibility. I mean, if you pick and choose which opinions you have a strong reaction to…then it's more reasonable. But just seeing "posted by Aslan" and immediately running in to post some derogatory remark just makes you a "flamer" (in the internet sense).

Im sure it's all my fault.

[Aslan]

Im sure it's all my fault.

Wait…now YOU'RE playing the victim??!

My bad…please feel free to search out all of my threads and make random derogatory comments…it's welcomed, encouraged, and appreciated and I apologize for making you fell like a victim.

Don't worry…no matter what the topic you derail…it'll eventually get locked and you can derail the next one. I'm gonna post a new one right now…so get ready!!

[dnhoffman]

No, I'm saying you're the perpetual victim so it must be my fault... It's easier than explaining reality to you because you'll just deny it all anyway and blame everyone else so... Easier to just say "I'm sure it's all my fault"

Anyway, good,luck with your cross, I hope nobody needs the wood before you're done!

[tr33frog]

Okay…thats fair. But where does it end? At what point does a 300 mean less?? If it was bowled with an illegal ball? Maybe a 17lb ball or a ball that is bigger than average? What about no-tap? See…everyone wants all the benefits of being able to brag about their great scores…yet they don't want to pay $20/year to make them "official"…and they act like it's a waste of $20. It's $20 per year for crying out loud!! It's NOT the money!! And sanctioned leagues are just as fun as non-sanctioned leagues…so that argument doesn't fly either. And that makes me wonder…makes me suspicious. If people are so, so, so adamantly against having their scores "sanctioned"…why?? For $20/year??? Come on.

Who said they were against having their scores sanctioned? Are there ball companies out there making illegally heavy balls, or bigger than normal balls? I happen to bowl in a league that decided before I joined that being sanctioned wasn't something they were worried about. I honestly don't think there was ever a 700 in the league before I joined. If it was worth it to more people, I'd push for it, to mostly 170 or below bowlers that are lucky to ever break 600, and maybe have a 250 once every few years it just doesn't buy them anything.

[tr33frog]

"Neither the views of Aslan, nor the comments found within his walls of text, accurately represent the opinions of the majority of rational sane bowlers participating in USBC sanctioned leagues. Additionally, please understand that most bowlers participating in organized leagues, sanctioned or otherwise, are shaking their collective heads at this entire thread."

Sincerely,
Dnhoffman, President.
Partnership for an Aslan Free America.

I'll admit, I LOL!

[Mudpuppy]

I keep forgetting about the Michigan contingent and the sub-standard reading comprehension. :p

But you appear to have grasped the concept just fine.

To me...a person that claims to have an average > 170 and 300 games and 700+ series yet has no USBC number and doesn't bowl in sanctioned leagues...is like:

1) That guy you golf with that claims he's a scratch golfer yet EVERY time you golf with him he shoots about 35 over and claims it's because THAT golf course doesn't maintain it's greens properly.

or
2) That kid in school that was really good at sports in gym class but never actually joined a team.

I played hockey with a kid in high school that was actually quite skilled. But our high school didn't have a team and he was too lazy to join an organized travel team. But I think it was more than just laziness. Like our previous discussions about THS vs. sport patterns and how afraid most "good" bowlers are of getting outside their comfort zone...I think he was "afraid"...that if he actually played against "real" players...he wouldn't be as good (comparitively speaking)...so he never bothered. He was probably good enough to "maybe" get a college scholarship had he applied himself...but he was content just being the best player at midnight every other friday for drop-in hockey. And thats sad (in my opinion).

Thank you for your kind words. I am proud to be a member of the Enchanted Mitten contingent. Most things in Michigan are sub-standard just like, as you stated, our reading comprehension. When I grow up I hope that I can collect enough returnables to save up to move to a place half as cool as Cali. That is my goal. If you believe it you can achieve it.

Really though I don't care whether someone bowls sanctioned or non-sanctioned. That is their choice. I chose to bowl sanctioned. I don't even like to practice or open bowl as it seems pointless to me (other than 15 minute practice before my league starts).

[J Anderson]

There are a great number of league bowlers who view bowling as a game, not a sport. It's an excuse to get out of the house, have some friendly competition, and hang around with friends. These people look at the USBC and only see the awards, which seem to get fewer and chintzier every year, and the nationally recognized averages. They figure they're never going to get one of the few nice awards, and they don't bowl in tournaments so they see very little value to having the league sanctioned.

The USBC does a terrible job of trying to sell these bowlers on the value that it provides for all bowlers. I've bowled in one league that has bounced back and forth between being sanctioned and not. It usually boils down to whether there are a few captains that really want the league to be sanctioned.

[Aslan]

No, I'm saying you're the perpetual victim so it must be my fault... It's easier than explaining reality to you because you'll just deny it all anyway and blame everyone else so... Easier to just say "I'm sure it's all my fault"

Anyway, good,luck with your cross, I hope nobody needs the wood before you're done!

Oh no you don't…you don't just get to jump off the cross and immediately post me on it!

Still feeling sorry for D-hoff…he tried random hating on posts and got a negative reaction…oh boo-boo…I'm so sad for him. :( :(

[Aslan]

I'll admit, I LOL!

See: "Easily Impressed…" post.

[Aslan]

There are a great number of league bowlers who view bowling as a game, not a sport. It's an excuse to get out of the house, have some friendly competition, and hang around with friends. These people look at the USBC and only see the awards, which seem to get fewer and chintzier every year, and the nationally recognized averages. They figure they're never going to get one of the few nice awards, and they don't bowl in tournaments so they see very little value to having the league sanctioned.

The USBC does a terrible job of trying to sell these bowlers on the value that it provides for all bowlers. I've bowled in one league that has bounced back and forth between being sanctioned and not. It usually boils down to whether there are a few captains that really want the league to be sanctioned.

WHOA! A post on topic that makes sense and actually adds value!!?


http://youtu.be/dXyzySHX4h8

[dnhoffman]

Oh no you don't…you don't just get to jump off the cross and immediately post me on it!

Still feeling sorry for D-hoff…he tried random hating on posts and got a negative reaction…oh boo-boo…I'm so sad for him. :( :(

What color is the sun on the planet you live on?

The only one giving a negative reaction is... You. And frankly, that's par for the course. Everyone else laughed at my posts, said your posts were insulting, and one person even took the time to send me a PM thanking me for calling you out for the victim you always bemoan yourself to be.

But somewhere, on the strange planet only you live on, you imagined this going differently... Wow man, that's just sad.

[Aslan]

The only one giving a negative reaction is... You. And frankly, that's par for the course. Everyone else laughed at my posts, said your posts were insulting, and one person even took the time to send me a PM thanking me for calling you out for the victim you always bemoan yourself to be.

Wait...so I LOST the popularity contest?? Well thats disappointing. First I lose the ball giveaways and NOW the popularity contest...bummer.

I think your small sample size has no statistical relevance. You picked an easy target, flamed a post, and got a few people that are not in my fan club to say "yay!" And I'm sure the more cowardly of them probably did take the time to PM you and congratulate you....I say cowardly...because you and them continue to dodge the source...only TWO have ever taken me up on my challenge/request/invitation to PM me directly (rather than clog forums with off topic nonsense) to voice their "issues". Internet tough guys...what ya gonna do...it's a sad commentary on society...but I digress.

So...I guess we're both victims...or maybe neither of us are...it's hard to say. But since pointing out trolling and flaming and general poor forum posting etiquette is not in any way successful...and the bad behavior/form is actually reinforced it appears....and pointing it out leads down the path to being labeled a "victim wannabe"...I will give up that strategy when dealing with trolls/flamers and simply fight fire with fire. You wanna post publically rather than take it private...okay. You wanna derail threads with your personal issues with me....okay. You wanna post random images with no content relevance...okay. It's rather juvenile and quite honestly beneath me to engage you at that level...but I see no other recourse than just to ignore you outright...because you're obviously not being asked to stop...and are actually being encouraged...so it's fine. No victim here. I look forward to the fun and games that will transpire...all in the spirit of good times, good bowling, and high scores of course.

[sprocket]

I'm a little late to this topic but in my area I'm not even aware if there are non-sanctioned leagues. I guess I was under the assumption that all winter leagues were sanctioned and that only some summer leagues were unsanctioned. I'm almost sure that's the way things used to be. Have times changed in that regard?

[dnhoffman]

Wait...so I LOST the popularity contest?? Well thats disappointing. First I lose the ball giveaways and NOW the popularity contest...bummer.

I think your small sample size has no statistical relevance. You picked an easy target, flamed a post, and got a few people that are not in my fan club to say "yay!" And I'm sure the more cowardly of them probably did take the time to PM you and congratulate you....I say cowardly...because you and them continue to dodge the source...only TWO have ever taken me up on my challenge/request/invitation to PM me directly (rather than clog forums with off topic nonsense) to voice their "issues". Internet tough guys...what ya gonna do...it's a sad commentary on society...but I digress.

So...I guess we're both victims...or maybe neither of us are...it's hard to say. But since pointing out trolling and flaming and general poor forum posting etiquette is not in any way successful...and the bad behavior/form is actually reinforced it appears....and pointing it out leads down the path to being labeled a "victim wannabe"...I will give up that strategy when dealing with trolls/flamers and simply fight fire with fire. You wanna post publically rather than take it private...okay. You wanna derail threads with your personal issues with me....okay. You wanna post random images with no content relevance...okay. It's rather juvenile and quite honestly beneath me to engage you at that level...but I see no other recourse than just to ignore you outright...because you're obviously not being asked to stop...and are actually being encouraged...so it's fine. No victim here. I look forward to the fun and games that will transpire...all in the spirit of good times, good bowling, and high scores of course.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/392/685/a9c.png

[Aslan]

If ya can't flame it nor mock it...make it appear that it's too long to read or has too many spelling errors...THEN flame/mock it. :rolleyes: But it beats having to come up with an intelligent response!!

dang it...that wasn't nice...trying to live my new motto...WWSD (what would sprocket do)..failed. Next time.

[classygranny]

I'm a little late to this topic but in my area I'm not even aware if there are non-sanctioned leagues. I guess I was under the assumption that all winter leagues were sanctioned and that only some summer leagues were unsanctioned. I'm almost sure that's the way things used to be. Have times changed in that regard?

Actually, around these parts most leagues are sanctioned. One of the prominent reasons is that it provides some protection to the league for non-payment of fees (with a formal course of action). Sad to think that we would have that much of a problem that we couldn't even enjoy an unsanctioned league. I checked with several "bowling" type people...avid bowlers, bowling center workers/league coordinators/managers, league secretaries/presidents...and most of them feel this is the biggest factor of why the unsanctioned leagues are difficult to find, if at all - in our area.

[Aslan]

Does anyone that has played in both see a noticeable difference in teams starting the league then not showing up?

I only ask because I've been in 2 leagues…one non-sanctioned and one sanctioned…and the sanctioned league started out with 9 teams and now has 10…after about 10 weeks.

The non-snactioned league started out with 9 and by about week 9 was down to 6. A few teams either never showed up or just stopped coming.

[sprocket]

Does anyone that has played in both see a noticeable difference in teams starting the league then not showing up?

I only ask because I've been in 2 leagues…one non-sanctioned and one sanctioned…and the sanctioned league started out with 9 teams and now has 10…after about 10 weeks.

The non-snactioned league started out with 9 and by about week 9 was down to 6. A few teams either never showed up or just stopped coming.

That doesn't surprise me. To me a sanctioned league just seems "official". A non-sanctioned league just sounds like a bunch of people getting together to bowl. Maybe they will continue to show up, maybe they wont.

I think some non-sanctioned summer leagues in my area may be different because they usually have a gimmick like getting a new bowling ball at the end of the season or bowling on PBA patterns.

[J Anderson]

That doesn't surprise me. To me a sanctioned league just seems "official". A non-sanctioned league just sounds like a bunch of people getting together to bowl. Maybe they will continue to show up, maybe they wont.

I think some non-sanctioned summer leagues in my area may be different because they usually have a gimmick like getting a new bowling ball at the end of the season or bowling on PBA patterns.

I thought that since the USBC has an agreement with the PBA to let them use PBA patterns in their sport leagues that any league using them would have to be sanctioned.

Since the USBC has a number of rules about fees and dropping out of league, there is or should be a higher level of commitment in sanctioned leagues. While the anecdotal evidence suggests that's true, it makes it harder to recruit new bowlers who are wary of committing to anything past next week.

[Perrin]

Most of the leagues around here are sanctioned. THere are some that aren't though. usually themed leagues. have-a-ball, fundraisers, bowling with local sports teams etc etc.

I am joining one of the local non-sanctioned leagues after the new year. will have to see what I think...

I've always assoctiated sanctioned with controls to prevent cheating and etc....

[Aslan]

it makes it harder to recruit new bowlers who are wary of committing to anything past next week.

I had that problem. I wanted a gal pal of mine to join the sanctioned league with me and she said she would figuring it was like 10-11 weeks. But she called ahead to verify...and it was like 23-26 weeks so she politely declined...not wanting to commit to that long of a league. : (

[circlecity]

I'm in a split league right now. Next week is the last week of the first half. You don't have to bowl in both so it does give people the option to bowl less.

[tccstudent]

I'm in a split league right now. Next week is the last week of the first half. You don't have to bowl in both so it does give people the option to bowl less.

I'm in one of those too. This past week was our last and the new season will start up on Jan 7. Generally most people bowl both but there will be a team or two that doesnt and we will probably add a team or two.