New driling layout

[ghetto24]

so im bowling for my college team and our coach has changed everything and anything about my throw. from steps, to hand, to backswing. you name it, we changed it. in spite of all that changing my ball now rolls over the thumb with my pin down balls. pin up, it rolls just fine. so my coach thought maybe i was a full roller. we decided to drill up a ball for a full roller (pin under thumb). i threw it in league last night and sure enough, shot a 720. my flare was exactly between my fingers and thumb.

any other other full rollers out there? how did you learn about it? do you like it? do you dislike it?

[sprocket]

See, I don't get that at all. I could see if your pin down balls were hitting the inner quadrant of the thumb hole and you pin up balls were hitting the center or outer part of the thumb hole. On the initial track, I mean. But you seem to be saying that your pin up balls tracked outside the thumb hole. How can a full roller lay-out move the initial track all the way to the inside of the thumb hole?

Or does your ball always hit the thumb hole right off your hand and then flares one way or the other depending on the lay-out?

[RobLV1]

If you draw a line from a bowler's PAP, out through the pin, it will give you the location of the bowtie. On pin down balls, for someone who tracks the ball fairly high, this will put the bowtie high enough that the first flare will hit the thumbhole. On pin up balls, the bowtie is lowered and will generally track outside of both the thumb and finger holes. A full-roller layout actually moves the track up so that it goes between the thumb and fingers. A full roller today, by the way, should not necessarily be confused with the full roller of the past. I know a very high average bowler who throws a full roller, with about 5" of flare between the fingers and thumb, and he hooks the entire lane.

[striker12]

i use to be a full roller but i changed out of it from all the work i have done with my bowling

[sprocket]

Rob, how does the initial track move unless the ball is actually flaring in the air on the first revolution? Is that was is happening?

One of my pet peeves is the use of the term "full roller" to describe someone whose track is between the thumb and finger holes. That's not necessarily a full roller track. A full roller is a bowler who has very close to zero tilt or actually has zero tilt. Very few actually have exactly zero tilt but may have very close to it plus or minus. A bowler can have virtually zero tilt and still track outside the holes. It's unlikely but possible. It's also possible to track between the holes and yet have some tilt. I would really like to know how much tilt Tom Smallwood has because he is a half thumber and therefore his thumb is positioned well outside the fingers when he grips the ball and that is a big part of why his track goes inside the thumb hole. I say unless he has very close to zero tilt, he is not a full roller.

[got_a_300]

I know a very high average bowler who throws a full roller, with about 5" of flare between the fingers and thumb, and he hooks the entire lane.

If I'm not mistaken I believe Tom Smallwood throws a full roller and look
at all the revs and hook he gets on it and he's a touring Pro to boot.

[bowl1820]

Rob, how does the initial track move unless the ball is actually flaring in the air on the first revolution? Is that was is happening?

Balls can flare in the air depending on core and release.

At least enough so that the track will move away some from the thumb hole.

A Mo Pinel Quote:
" Keep in mind, bowling balls DO NOT hook in the air, but they do flare in the air! "

[Mudpuppy]

Balls can flare in the air depending on core and release.

At least enough so that the track will move away some from the thumb hole.

A Mo Pinel Quote:
" Keep in mind, bowling balls DO NOT hook in the air, but they do flare in the air! "

What does that flare do to the ball and ultimately the reaction of the ball? What is the affect on your shot? In general anyways.

[bowl1820]

What does that flare do to the ball and ultimately the reaction of the ball? What is the affect on your shot? In general anyways.

The little bit of flare that happens from the time the ball leaves your hand to touching the lane. From what I've read is basically meaningless as far as the reaction on the lane goes.

The only thing it doe's is that it can cause small changes in the P.A.P. location (The PAP change is caused by design dynamics). That's why when you get a new ball, you should try to use the PAP from an older ball that's similar to it.

[Mudpuppy]

The little bit of flare that happens from the time the ball leaves your hand to touching the lane. From what I've read is basically meaningless as far as the reaction on the lane goes.

The only thing it doe's is that it can cause small changes in the P.A.P. location (The PAP change is caused by design dynamics). That's why when you get a new ball, you should try to use the PAP from an older ball that's similar to it.

So basically the PAP is designed to leave the bowlers hand with little to no loft to get the desired reaction? And lofting or throwing in the air causes "flare" that throws the PAP location off and could result in undesirable results in regards to ball reaction?

[bowl1820]

The PAP change that is caused by the design dynamics, will be close whether you loft the ball or not as long as the loft is not excessive.

Also lofting or throwing the ball in the air doesn't cause "flare", the ball is designed to flare and when you release it you put the process in motion.

I think I see where this is going, your not going to have to start worrying about the ball flaring in the air and trying to control it.

As a caveat there are those that don't think a ball will flare in the air, because the air doesn't offer enough friction/resistance etc. to start the precession.

[Mudpuppy]

The PAP change that is caused by the design dynamics, will be close whether you loft the ball or not as long as the loft is not excessive.

Also lofting or throwing the ball in the air doesn't cause "flare", the ball is designed to flare and when you release it you put the process in motion.

I think I see where this is going, your not going to have to start worrying about the ball flaring in the air and trying to control it.

As a caveat there are those that don't think a ball will flare in the air, because the air doesn't offer enough friction/resistance etc. to start the precession.

I was just thinking this could be a consistency type of thing - i.e. if you loft it 6" one time and 2' the next the flare would be different and affect consistency. I am going to start to pay more attention to this. I don't really loft the ball so it should be an issue.

[RobLV1]

Expanding on what bowl1820 is saying, it's important to understand what causes a ball to flare: axis migration. The way it works on modern bowling balls work is that when the ball is released by the bowler, it is spinning around his unique PAP (Positive Axis Point). Personally, I think the concept would be much easier to understand if the PAP was renamed Personal Axis Point, as it is truly unique to each bowler's release. Anyway, as soon as the ball is released, the axis begins to migrate toward the PSA (Preferred Spin Axis) which is the axis around which the core is designed to rotate. It is that axis migration that causes the ball to flare, based on the individual bowler's release. The inititial migration that begins before the ball actually touches the lane affects where the flare starts. This is the reason that a bowler's PAP may vary from one ball to another, and the true PAP should be determined using a spare ball that does not contain a core, so has no axis migration to distort the true location of the bowler's PAP.

[Mike White]

Expanding on what bowl1820 is saying, it's important to understand what causes a ball to flare: axis migration. The way it works on modern bowling balls work is that when the ball is released by the bowler, it is spinning around his unique PAP (Positive Axis Point). Personally, I think the concept would be much easier to understand if the PAP was renamed Personal Axis Point, as it is truly unique to each bowler's release. Anyway, as soon as the ball is released, the axis begins to migrate toward the PSA (Preferred Spin Axis) which is the axis around which the core is designed to rotate. It is that axis migration that causes the ball to flare, based on the individual bowler's release. The inititial migration that begins before the ball actually touches the lane affects where the flare starts. This is the reason that a bowler's PAP may vary from one ball to another, and the true PAP should be determined using a spare ball that does not contain a core, so has no axis migration to distort the true location of the bowler's PAP.

The axis doesn't migrate towards the PSA.


It follows a path across the ball such that the RG of the initial pap is the same as all subsequent pap locations during the migration process.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:Axis_mig_and_cores.pdf

[MICHAEL]

Rob if your pap should be determined by using a spare ball, then I would guess all my bowling balls, are incorrect!

I honestly believe that all my ball layouts are based on ONE determination, where the driller used one of my first bowling balls, the, ( undefeated). He then laid the lucid out using info from that ball for all my other ones.

Does this mean that I am not getting all the goodie out of my balls, due to the fact they were all based off of that determination 3 years ago...

A spare,,,,, spare me,,, it was not used to determine my PAP!

[Mike White]

Rob if your pap should be determined by using a spare ball, then I would guess all my bowling balls, are incorrect!

I honestly believe that all my ball layouts are based on ONE determination, where the driller used one of my first bowling balls, the, ( undefeated). He then laid the lucid out using info from that ball for all my other ones.

Does this mean that I am not getting all the goodie out of my balls, due to the fact they were all based off of that determination 3 years ago...

A spare,,,,, spare me,,, it was not used to determine my PAP!

If your pap was identified 3 years ago, and has been assumed to be the same ever since, then I'm 99.9% sure an incorrect location is being used for at least a few of your balls.

When you had your grip changed to tri-grip you will release those balls different than the one 3 years ago.

A quick way to tell if the PAP location being used for you is correct is to place a small piece of white tape on the ball at the point considered to be your PAP.

Having someone stand behind you and watch the ball closely at the moment you release the ball.

If the PAP location is correct, the piece of tape should be stationary, with the ball rotating around it.

The reason you want someone to watch, is most people can't really see the ball until it crosses their target (usually the arrows) and by then, the PAP has probably already migrated some amount.

It's not uncommon for the tape to wobble at first, then become stationary for a while down the lane, then wobble again.

This happens when the flare line used doesn't happen to be the initial flare line.

Earlier the flare line, the earlier it is absorbed into the ball.

The purpose for using a spare ball is since there usually isn't track flare, you naturally get the right flare line,

If however your finger pitches, or spans are different, then the results will likely be inaccurate.

[RobLV1]

Iceman: It's really not a matter of your PAP being "right" or "wrong." While it may very well have changed from three years ago, unless you have made very significant changes to your release, it's probably still fairly close. The important thing about your PAP is the fact that you are using one to have your balls drilled. The main idea of using the PAP to determine layouts is to get away from one bowler looking at another bowler's ball and thinking that positioning the pin and the cg the same will result in the same reaction for him. If a layout works for you, it really doesn't matter a whole lot if the angles are exactly as they are written.

Mike White: Once again your choice to argue a technicality does nothing other than to confuse the bowlers who are trying to learn something about bowling balls. Most bowlers don't know that axis migration is what causes flare. The exact direction of the axis migration is not important to them. How about if we start telling them that different angles to the VAL, or pin buffers if you prefer the Storm system, change the direction of the axis migration, and really confuse them? What is really important to you, helping the bowlers here who are asking for help, or constantly focusing on being right?

[bowl1820]

Bowls simplified what causes a ball to flare?

At the start when you roll the ball down the lane, the balls core/weight block is in a unstable position.

As it rolls down the lane the core will try to get itself into a stable position , that stable position is called the Preferred Spin Axis (PSA).

So as the ball tries to find the PSA, the ball will roll on different parts of its surface.

The rings of oil you see on the balls surface are the evidence of this movement and is known as track flare.

[sprocket]

Within a certain level of accuracy, I'll bet you can't tell by ball reaction if the PAP is off. I doubt if 1/4" is going to make much difference. My wild guess would be as that beyond 1/4" error the impact becomes more significant the larger the error.

Have you even noticed that the manufacturers recommended layouts are for high, medium, or low track? Probably because in most cases high, medium, or low is close enough.

I would still want my PAP to be correctly known though. If you have a choice between being right or wrong, why not be right? That being said, I wouldn't go redrilling every ball that I thought the PAP was located slightly off.

[sprocket]

One more thing: I talked to a guy who has been drilling balls for 30 years and is highly knowledgeable. I mentioned that on a couple of my balls the track just clips the edge of the thumb hole on the first few rotations. He said that doesn't matter at all. He said when laying out a ball he would never risk sacrificing reaction just to get the track to get off the thumb hole faster. He said it would be different if it was tracking all over the thumb hole, but it isn't. Of course I still have to be flare safe but that has to do with the finger holes, not the thumb.

[Mike White]

Iceman: It's really not a matter of your PAP being "right" or "wrong." While it may very well have changed from three years ago, unless you have made very significant changes to your release, it's probably still fairly close. The important thing about your PAP is the fact that you are using one to have your balls drilled. The main idea of using the PAP to determine layouts is to get away from one bowler looking at another bowler's ball and thinking that positioning the pin and the cg the same will result in the same reaction for him. If a layout works for you, it really doesn't matter a whole lot if the angles are exactly as they are written.

Mike White: Once again your choice to argue a technicality does nothing other than to confuse the bowlers who are trying to learn something about bowling balls. Most bowlers don't know that axis migration is what causes flare. The exact direction of the axis migration is not important to them. How about if we start telling them that different angles to the VAL, or pin buffers if you prefer the Storm system, change the direction of the axis migration, and really confuse them? What is really important to you, helping the bowlers here who are asking for help, or constantly focusing on being right?

My comment about the migration path is no more confusing than your comment about the migration path.

If the idea is something a person wishes to ignore, they can ignore both mine and your comment equally.

If however they seek the truth about the migration path, it's best not to leave just your description as if it were accepted as truth.

I will stop pointing out your errors as soon as you stop making errors that I am aware of.

If it makes you happy, one of my customers, while bowling on Tuesday was trying to find a good line to the pocket, but all of his moves just wouldn't work, weak finish, or nose dive.

About the middle of the 2nd game (I didn't see his 1st game) I simply told him he needed to change balls.

He proceeded to throw the last 5 strikes, then start the next game with the first 9. He left an 8-10 in the 10th which was probably a case of the nerves.

So there is one more person in the world not afraid to change balls at any moment.

[MICHAEL]

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/f2851594-ec8e-47a9-9bab-79f9cc06311a_zps29ba7321.gif (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/f2851594-ec8e-47a9-9bab-79f9cc06311a_zps29ba7321.gif.html)


LOVE IS THE ANSWER


We enjoy, and appreciate each of your personal thoughts and pointers! Maybe you should both just give YOUR THOUGHTS, and not mention, or critique one another's theories of bowling!

I for one, enjoy reading both of your thoughts, along with bowl1820!

Lets keep is civil,,,, I don't want to close this thread! I believe in good conversation, and freedom!

Love,,,,, Love is in the AIR,,,, can't you feel it!!??

[ghetto24]

See, I don't get that at all. I could see if your pin down balls were hitting the inner quadrant of the thumb hole and you pin up balls were hitting the center or outer part of the thumb hole. On the initial track, I mean. But you seem to be saying that your pin up balls tracked outside the thumb hole. How can a full roller lay-out move the initial track all the way to the inside of the thumb hole?

Or does your ball always hit the thumb hole right off your hand and then flares one way or the other depending on the lay-out?


with pin down it hits the thumb the entire time. with pin up, it hits maybe once or twice.

[ghetto24]

i use to be a full roller but i changed out of it from all the work i have done with my bowling

all the changing i have done over this year has turned me into a full roller