RAW talent vs Coaching

[MICHAEL]

Raw talent vs Best Instructions in the world! I am not knocking bowling knowledge, and instructions at all, BUT I think it can only take you SO FAR! That's when the Raw Talent of the individual comes to play!

I know many bowlers that have never had ONE lesion in their life, and have 220 and above averages. I know instructors all over this board are Flipping out with that statement, but I know it to be true. I bet on league night if I were to ask how many have ever had instructions from a Bronze level or above instructor,,, 5 percent would say yes, and out of that group several on my Monday league have above 220 averages... we had 6 300, and several 800 last fall! Including me,,LOL 780 and 300. I didn't do it because of coaching, or youth being 65! LOL (:)

I am not saying that coaching is a waste of money, but it will only take you to a slightly higher level! (IF YOU DON"T HAVE THE mind body physical connection,,, YOU WILL never be a 220 plus bowler. Golf the same!!! RAW Talent will always score higher then best coached golfer.

I am looking for the day that Aslan with all his Coaching reaches that 220 pentacle,,,, will he make it...... I don't think so, but it won't be for lack of coaching! His main problem is HE NEEDS A WOMAN!! Then everything else will work out!!

STATEMENT: Coaching does HELP! Can it make you a 220 average bowler, maybe, but not likely for most bowlers. NO,,, that's where the physical, hand, eye, legs, balance GIFT come to play.

I know many coach's around here, that do NOT HAVE 220 averages,,, Rob how about you? Knowledge is JUST one part of what can get you to that pentacle, but without RAW TALENT, Forget=about-it!! (:)

[RobLV1]

For the past several years I have averaged in the mid to high 190's. This was a problem, not in my mind, but in others minds who thought that my lack of bowling ability indicated a lack of coaching ability. Late last year I started working with a new coach who was actually able to help me to fix my footwork. Where others failed, he succeeded. I ended up booking 203 this year, and have averaged over 207 for 500+ games in several different bowling centers since the beginning of January. This month I am averaging over 210. The sad thing is that I don't know any more now than I did before my bowling improved, but suddenly people here locally are beginning to seek out my guidance. Does coaching work? You betcha!

[Amyers]

I don't know about this I believe everyone has a floor you can only be so bad at anything every one has a ceiling most of us not matter how hard we try, practice, and receive great coaching advice will only go so far. I really don't believe at my age even though twenty years ago I was considered really good that I will ever make the PBA tour and even if I had not been off for the last twenty years that I would have made it then but I do believe with good coaching and a solid effort on my part I will get back to whatever my ceiling is faster than I would have just doing it on my own.

[Aslan]

Iceman makes some good points...but as usual in his brief moments between acid flashbacks...I can't say I agree with everything.

For example;
Does instruction help?
YES! BELIEVE ME...I started out in August 2013 with a 121 average, no knowledge of lateral movement, no understanding of bowling balls, and no technique to speak of. After ONE lesson...I was a 140s bowlers and knew all the basics. After TWO lessons I was a 160s bowler and a value to my team. After THREE lessons...my average has climbed into the 170s and I'm picking up over 70% of my singe-pin spares.

Ice...instruction shows you where your holes are (in your game, not yur head)...and gives you a lot of food for thought on how you might want to change one thing or another to help you. If you (like many bowlers) are too PROUD to ask for advice or admit you're not the greatest bowler ever (on pure talent)...then you will never GROW past what you are. And no matter how high your average is...if it's not being tested at the USBC open or in PBA events or even ABT events...it's meaningless. Yes....MEANINGLESS. Right now...you're the best basketball player at your local YMCA. And all the 8th graders you play against sing your praises. BUT...until you join a Gus Macker tournament...maybe try out for a real team...you're only as good as the next best player at your YMCA. And you aren't getting BETTER...because how could you!!? You're already GREAT! You're a LEGEND in your own mind....there's no room for improvement.

Aslan just needs a woman.
Disagree...and I'll tell you why in the next example.

You NEED some natural ability.
TRUE...and here's my example;

My work buddy...I've tried to get him into bowling with me. At first, he was Gung Ho about it. But he wasn't "good". And no matter how many times I tried to help...even after a lesson with a pro...he's still not good. He doesn't stand in the right place....he doesn't know what he's aiming at...30% of his shots just go in the gutter. He has LESS natural ability...then the average child. ANd I can't help him. I don't think anyone can help him!! You tell him to line up in one place...he lines up somewhere else. You tell him to aim for an arrow on the right side...his ball is in the left gutter!

AND....he recently found a woman!! And did that HELP his game!?? NOPE. Now he cares even LESS that he sucks at bowling...because he's got a horny lady friend competing for his time. Tonight, he canceled on the bowling team...because he'd rather miss out on bowling and pay the sub to play...so he can go to Disney Land on a date with his lady friend. Is it his first ever trip that he just couldn't pass on!!? Nope. He's been there 50 times, has a season pass.

H Word (that rhymes with LOWES <----quality building center) before Bros apparently! :mad:

See Ice. No coach can help you...because you're a LEGEND. And so long as you can live in that tiny world...that 1-2 centers...that THS shot beer league...there's ZERO reason to ever try to get lessons and get better. You're a LEGEND. They will write stories of you in the local paper. Now...when I'm bowling with vdub in Reno...against actual elite bowlers...and struggling to learn and get better...you "may" think that I'm a fool for doing so. Perhaps that I should instead just stay in my own center and bask in the glory of a 207 average!!

But THAT is where we differ. If there is no mountain left to climb...I'll find a new sport. When I started running...I ran in 5Ks to WIN...not just to "participate". I was running 7k every DAY!! What "glory" is there in "participating"?? And if bowling becomes me patting myself on the back for being a local "legend"...and "poo-pooing" those that are taking lessons to get better...because I'm such a natural talent....then I have OVERSTAYED my welcome as a bowler and it's time to find something a bit more challenging.

[classygranny]

Well stated Aslan!

[Stormed1]

Where coaching with show its benefits more is on sport shot and just challenging conditions. On todays house shots you have tons of "spray and pray" bowlers averaging over 200 those same people on a challenging condition and they struggle to average 180. Proper technique and knowledgeable play will win out most of the time over just raw talent

[Aslan]

Well stated Aslan!

Hopefully it wasn't "too harsh" to Iceman. I didn't mean it to be. And I DO agree with him that bowlers need some of that natural skill if they're going to become elite…it can't be ALL lessons.

BUT…I see FAR too many bowlers in house leagues that the ink they are God's gift because they can roll a 212 every game in a house they've played at exclusively for 14 years. And when you mention tournaments or scratch leagues in other houses…they make excuse after excuse and claim they don't have time for that and just bowl "for fun". But it's NOT that. It's FEAR and EGO. It's PRIDE and VANITY. They don't want to walk into a house and bowl a 175…they can't take that.

Does that mean I think it's fun to bowl a 175?? HECK NO! I hate bowling under a 180. There's times I consider quitting altogether because I get so dang frustrated. Felt the same way about golf. Felt the same way about running. Felt the same way about hockey. Because I get frustrated too easily. But I'd rather bowl on a USBC pattern and realize I'm more of a 180 bowler than a 210 bowler…and work to improve…than to sit back and brag that I'm a 220 bowler with 7 300-games.

In high school, our PE teacher used to call kids like that; "Gym Class All-Americans"…because in gym class they'd tear it up no matter what the game…kickball, dodgeball, races, lacrosse, basketball, etc… But they'd never play organized sports. They'd never put on a uniform and attend practices. They were legends as long as they didn't need to prove it.

[RobLV1]

Yesterday I had the unique opportunity to coach at a USBC clinic alongside Carolyn Dorin-Ballard, Wendy Macpherson, Dave Wodka, and Jimmy Calahan. It was a very interesting experience for me as it was the first multiple-coach clinic in which I've participated. We worked with bowlers at a great range of levels with averages from 160 to 220 and ages from some college bowling team athletes to some senior citizens with some limiting physical issues. The clinic was held in conjunction with a special event, so the participants came from all over the country.

What I found fascinating was the wide variety of coaching styles and the way some of the atheletes were immediately comfortable with one coach over the others, yet said they gained something from everyone. As Dave Wodka and Jimmy Calahan are working ball reps for Ebonite and Storm, there were some very interesting discussion about bowling balls, aside from the physical instruction. Something that I found very interesting that you could do yourself was when they had one of the collegiate bowlers throw a shot with his bowling ball, then Wodka hit it by hand with a 1000 abralon pad before he threw it again. The difference in reaction was amazing! Next Calahan hit it again with a 3000 pad, and everyone could again see a visible difference in ball reaction. One thing that all of the pro bowler/ coaches had in common is that none of them have a single polished ball in their current arsenal. Food for thought!

[MICHAEL]

Ok, Aslan and granny! By the way I am a grandpa myself with no training, and do bowl at 4 different lanes,,, Two AMF's, Gladstone bowl and Retro in liberty. LOL

Good example, My son that NEVER BOWLED IN HIS LIFE, or even knew what a finger tip, ball was ended the season with a 185 average. He had a bunch of 600 series, and almost a 300 a couple times,,, 8 strikes in a role,,,, I think I posted a picture of it....! RAW TALENT!! NO COACHING,,, just a lot of advice from other bowlers on THAT LEAGUE, that never had instructions themselves.

YES everyone has a ceiling, Granny/Aslan,,, you both have had a LOT OF COACHING, I read about it on here all the time. LOL MY SON NONE?
What is are both your averages?

I REST MY CASE!

Hey, nothing wrong with coaching, and I am sure it can HELP! BUT as you yourself said, Man Without Woman, but lots of bowling balls, we all HAVE A CERTAIN CAPACITY that we will be dealing with, due to the RAW TALENT FACTOR!

My son that's 40, bowled his first season ever several 600 series, he is also ONE HELL OF A GOLFER! HE HAS the athletic Gift, that many don't have, and never will.

AS I SAID, I bowled on and inter-city-league with some SUPER GREAT bowlers, with high averages! I would always ask a lot of questions, and I can honestly say non,,, had coaching!

O sure,,,, people they bowled with through the years gave advice to them, but that would be the extent of their coaching... LOL

Many had very unique, VERY DIFFERENT deliveries but guess what????? IT WOKED FOR THEM! I am thinking of one right now, among many with high averages that had no coaching. that I bowled against last year,,, that has a 220-25 average.

Again,,,, COACHING is not a BAD THING, but its not a MAGIC bullet by any means. GIVE ME RAW TALENT ANYDAY!

Granny you have had a LOT OF COACHING,,,, we are about the same age,,,, so not being disrespectful, but are you a 200 plus bowler?

I bowl with a couple female bowlers on Tuesday night that have at this time. (one a 220 average, the other 200 plus) neither have had coaching!

AGAIN<<< LOL,,,, Is ICEMAN saying coaching is a bad influence on a bowler,,, LOL ,,, NO! BUT ,,,,,,, if you have the gift, like MANY I KNOW including my son, who almost had that 300 and a half dozen 600 plus games, ((((HIS FIRST SEASON EVER bowling))))) well I rest my case, and stand by it! (:) HIS ONLY COACHING WAS FROM ICEMAN!! LOL ( AND I AM NOT A COACH!!) lol

[MICHAEL]

It can only take you soooooooo far!!

You all know Jason,,, my nemeses in Me vs Michael! He had a 231 average on a league we bowled on together this last year. LOL NO COACHING! JUST RAW TALENT!! Aslan you are absolutely correct in saying we ALL HAVE Ceiling, Limits that the best coaching in the world, (what ever that might be lol), can take you!

Some on house patterns especially, don't need any coaching, and do VERY WELL, as I have noticed bowing on that HUGE league as a back up last winter!

A Good Coach is a good thing for MOST,,, but if you have a HIGH AVERAGE and you have never been coached,,,,, ((((DON'T GET ONE LOL)))

They just might screw you up,,,, getting you into the " THINKING TOO MUCH MODE, like ASLAN!!!!" You can think TOO MUCH in my opinion! LOL

[MICHAEL]

Yesterday I had the unique opportunity to coach at a USBC clinic alongside Carolyn Dorin-Ballard, Wendy Macpherson, Dave Wodka, and Jimmy Calahan. It was a very interesting experience for me as it was the first multiple-coach clinic in which I've participated. We worked with bowlers at a great range of levels with averages from 160 to 220 and ages from some college bowling team athletes to some senior citizens with some limiting physical issues. The clinic was held in conjunction with a special event, so the participants came from all over the country.

What I found fascinating was the wide variety of coaching styles and the way some of the atheletes were immediately comfortable with one coach over the others, yet said they gained something from everyone. As Dave Wodka and Jimmy Calahan are working ball reps for Ebonite and Storm, there were some very interesting discussion about bowling balls, aside from the physical instruction. Something that I found very interesting that you could do yourself was when they had one of the collegiate bowlers throw a shot with his bowling ball, then Wodka hit it by hand with a 1000 abralon pad before he threw it again. The difference in reaction was amazing! Next Calahan hit it again with a 3000 pad, and everyone could again see a visible difference in ball reaction. One thing that all of the pro bowler/ coaches had in common is that none of them have a single polished ball in their current arsenal. Food for thought!


Very interesting that most don't use polished balls, I am just the opposite! I thought that the polish helped conserve the balls energy, keeping it form burning up on its way to the break point! I know my go to ball the V.G. Nanno pearl, has high polish on it, and it makes a beautiful move to the pocket the last 3 feet or so.

So are you saying a 4000 surface has and advantage over a polished surface?

[rv driver]

We are talking about degrees of accomplishment here, and points of perspective. No offense to your son, Michael, but I wonder if his average might have been over 200 had he received coaching? And I wonder what his average will be next year? Will he be consistent? Or is this "beginner's luck?" Sooner or later, if we excel at something naturally, we do begin to think about it and make tiny corrections. Will he know what corrections to make? When average mistakes begin to plague him (as they do everyone), will he know what corrections are best, or will he simply try harder at doing what he's always done, hoping that THIS time, it'll magically work?

Aslan's more or less correct here, I think: everyone has a ceiling. Where he's off track is implying that the ceiling is made of steel. It's usually not; it's generally made of rubber and can be stretched with proper attention (coaching). I used to teach music. I've had several students who were told they'd never be able to carry a tune -- they just didn't have the raw "gift" of musical ability. I taught all of them to sing on-pitch. Sing professionally? No. Sing "well?" Probably not. But at least they were no longer afraid to sing in the shower.

Coaching isn't about "getting everyone to the Tour." It's not about "having everyone reach a 250 average." It's about simple improvement -- whatever that means for the individual. If one is naturally gifted, coaching will take one far. If one is a klutz, coaching will abate embarrassment. It's not "one or the other"; it's "both/and."

[RobLV1]

Less surface conserves more energy, but many feel that polish clogs the pores in the cover material and makes the ball too squirty in the oil. Most of the pros would rather use a finer grid abrasive like a 4000 abralon pad to smooth out the surface rather than use a polish.

[Mudpuppy]

I'm not going to debate whether coaching works or not or if the USBC certification program is even credible here. In short my thoughts are it depends on your goals in bowling whether coaching is worthwhile or not - i.e. if you want to open bowl twice a year with a house ball and rented shoes but want a coach to impress your friends well just take your money, light it on fire and smack yourself twice because you are wasting your time.

But what I do want to say here is that this specific area of Michigan there really isn't much coaching available. The USBC sent an email about a free coaching lesson. I, personally, have never been interested in seeking out a coach but with all the talk here (and there is plenty just from Aslan) I thought I would give it the benefit of the doubt and try it out. So I checked my local area - there was a couple of Level I (barely certified took a 1 hour course online - who knows even they can even spell bowling) and then there was a bronze or silver coach. I contacted him and he said the USBC didn't even tell him they were doing this and he doesn't give out free lessons - he is too busy. IMO bad business approach - if he spent a mere 30 minutes with me and I liked his coaching I would have definitely paid for more sessions - I wasn't truly just looking for 1 session as a freebie. His loss. But in all of it he did tell me that there is a lack of credible coaches in this area and not to waste time with the Level I people. So once again left with a bad taste in my mouth about coaching.

[RobLV1]

It was interesting that at the beginning of the clinic yesterday, the question was asked, "How many of you have a coach that you see on an on-going basis. Some of the participants raised their hands, while every coach, including the three professional Touring bowlers all raised their hands. Professional atheletes have coaches; all of them, for a reason. As to your bad experience with the free lesson, I can tell you that I received an email from the USBC asking if I would participate in the program. I said yes. I have a hunch that the person you contacted might have forgotten about the email. On behalf of the USBC Coaching Program, I offer my apologies. If you ever get to Las Vegas, I will gladly give you a free lesson to make up for his oversight.

[Mudpuppy]

It was interesting that at the beginning of the clinic yesterday, the question was asked, "How many of you have a coach that you see on an on-going basis. Some of the participants raised their hands, while every coach, including the three professional Touring bowlers all raised their hands. Professional atheletes have coaches; all of them, for a reason. As to your bad experience with the free lesson, I can tell you that I received an email from the USBC asking if I would participate in the program. I said yes. I have a hunch that the person you contacted might have forgotten about the email. On behalf of the USBC Coaching Program, I offer my apologies. If you ever get to Las Vegas, I will gladly give you a free lesson to make up for his oversight.

I will be in LAV later this year and probably next year and the year after - I try to go once a year. The devil's playground is just too much fun to stay away. I will definitely let you know. I know there is always room for improvement. I appreciate the offer. I have a feeling this individual is bowling smart and not business savvy. And being deep into business and customer service this is a very bad approach. I give away thousands of dollars of product without blinking but it generates millions in sales. Really between myself and several other people I bowl with if this guy was any good he could have reaped a lot of benefit with my recommendation. I can't really offer the same kind of return on investment with your offer of a free lesson since you are in LAV but if I like the coaching from you I will definitely give you a ringing endorsement and when I am in Vegas if we can coordinate I could pay for additional lessons.

[rv driver]

I'm not going to debate whether coaching works or not or if the USBC certification program is even credible here. In short my thoughts are it depends on your goals in bowling whether coaching is worthwhile or not - i.e. if you want to open bowl twice a year with a house ball and rented shoes but want a coach to impress your friends well just take your money, light it on fire and smack yourself twice because you are wasting your time.
This^^^

[vdubtx]

I feel a benefit in getting coaching. Whether it be in person, or posting a video and getting analysis of my mechanics. It certainly pin points an issue or something to work on while practicing.

I have received coaching both ways and have seen benefit in both. Most recently I submitted a video to another forum and Rob Mautner saw something in my approach that helped get me back on track and something to work on over the summer.

[MICHAEL]

Do I know dozens, and dozens of HOUSE pattern, (which almost all of us on here bowl, lets be honest,, MOST, key word), who bowl 220 and over averages... YES!

Does Coaching Help? IT CAN, depending on the coach I suppose! Is knowledge important in being a 220 average bowler, Maybe! I know a bunch that don't know squat about modern bowling techniques, but can beat some of the more coached ones on this site, including me... LOL!

MY POINT IS THIS,,,,and I will stand by it to my death!! Raw talent will always win out over a (well coached, not gifted bowler)!

A well coached, talented bowler, (like most professionals), does have and edge with his coaching, and knowledge! BUT<<<But that person was probably a great bowler due to his GIFT OF BOWLING.

Ok ....... you can take art lessons for 30 years,,,,, are you going to be a great painter,,,, NO,,,, NOT IF YOU DON"T HAVE THE GIFT! Plain and simple all sports are the same way!

With Coaching could Aslan be a NFL quarterback??? NO... LOL.... Coaching can only take you so far, and in some cases can mess up a guy/gal that might have been a pretty good bowler using his own unique style and delivery! I know a bunch that fall into that category!

Knowledge is power, its a good thing, but it can only take you as far,,,,,,,,,,,AS YOUR ABALITY will allow you! YOUR GIFT!

I have seen golfers that and know a couple that were very unorthodox in their swing, but,,,, BUT IT WORKED! One, a guy named Ben, when the Pro got throw with him, he couldn't hit a watermelon!! His scores went down!

He had a pretty good game, in the 80's before he took lesions and started THINKING TOO MUCH! To this day he hits in the 90's, and low 100 now!

AGAIN: Coaching CAN help a persons game, (depending on the coach!) but it will NEVER Replace the GIFT,,,, RAW TALENT!!
THATS MY POINT! To be a 220 average bowler you HAVE TO HAVE THE GIFT FIRST, then coaching, (good coaching) would be of benefit!

[Aslan]

YES everyone has a ceiling, Granny/Aslan,,, you both have had a LOT OF COACHING, I read about it on here all the time. LOL MY SON NONE?
What is are both your averages?
It seems like everyone at that alley is almost bowling 300 games.


My son that's 40, bowled his first season ever several 600 series, he is also ONE HELL OF A GOLFER! HE HAS the athletic Gift, that many don't have, and never will. I DO agree that being naturally adept helps. I've seen beginner golfers shot +2 over par golf the first couple months of playing...they just have a "knack" for it. And I've seen golfers that have played for 40 years and I beat them....and I SUCK at golf!


AS I SAID, I bowled on and inter-city-league with some SUPER GREAT bowlers, with high averages! I would always ask a lot of questions, and I can honestly say non,,, had coaching!

O sure,,,, people they bowled with through the years gave advice to them, but that would be the extent of their coaching... LOL

Many had very unique, VERY DIFFERENT deliveries but guess what????? IT WOKED FOR THEM! I am thinking of one right now, among many with high averages that had no coaching. that I bowled against last year,,, that has a 220-25 average.
Who are these household names?? Who are these legends of bowling?? Oh...thats right...they apparently are GREAT...yet SO great that they don't want to show off on a bigger stage than "Bob's Monday Pizza League". :rolleyes:

I agree Iceman with the premise that natural talent is ALSO important. AND...I agree that there are alot of self-proclaimed experts that can't seem to average more than 174 and I think that detracts from their opinions. But maybe before criticizing "lessons" as useless...you should take one. Because if you don't, you're like the guy working in a coal mine in West Virginia claiming he makes a good living and never graduated the 8th grade so all that "fancy learnin" is over-rated. A wise man once said that the one thing you can never have TOO MUCH of is education. It's not going to always help, or be useful, or make you better...and being smart doesn't make you a better person...but it never HURTS.

Like I said....I listen to Rob because he's a credentialed instructor and his methods/teachings have thus far been very effective. I listen to Bowl1820 because he's a wealth of bowling knowledge. And I listen to VDub because he's a 200+ average bowler that has competed at the higher levels. Doesn't mean I don't also take advice from anywhere and everywhere else (although Rob would say that might be a bad thing)...but like I said...education is never a bad thing. I don't use everything I come across...but I'm always open minded.

[Aslan]

I'But what I do want to say here is that this specific area of Michigan there really isn't much coaching available.
Not just Michigan. I have the same problem in Southern California. There ARE a few silver level coaches...but they are very busy and very pricey! Everyone mentions Mark Baker...and I've seen that guy and talked with him at clinics...and the minute the clinic is over he's getting his laptop and stuff to start giving lessons. Even at a higher price point...his time gets booked FAST! And I'd love to meet with him...but at $75+ per lesson...I just can't afford that...much less see him on a regular basis. I got a daughter taking horseback riding lessons and kids take the priority. And Camp Bakkes?? I would LOVE to do that!!! But we're talking $2000+. I don't even have enough money to pay off my $3600 credit card bill and get a much needed tune up on my motorcycle...PLUS my daughter wants a horse...PLUS I got a divorce coming up that is sure to cost me about 32% of my income (and potentially cause me to have to move to TEXAS....the devil's armpit). I'm trying to scrape money together just to get a $160 4-ball roller because I'm on the brink of throwing my shoulder out carrying a 2-ball shoulder bag plus a single ball bag every night....and I figure the 4-bag roller is cheaper than back surgery.

Cliff Notes: Want coaching...no money.


I contacted him and he said the USBC didn't even tell him they were doing this and he doesn't give out free lessons - he is too busy. IMO bad business approach - if he spent a mere 30 minutes with me and I liked his coaching I would have definitely paid for more sessions - I wasn't truly just looking for 1 session as a freebie. His loss.
Yeah. Dumb move. I will say, to his credit, my local pro shop guy...he gives people great deals on balls, bags, drilling, and tends to give away little stuff like powder and towels...and I've gotten 3 lessons from him and he refuses to take my money. May "seem" like a bad business model...but because of it....I've personally referred multiple, multiple bowlers to him for everything from drilling to balls to shoes to paid lessons...and he's always busy during leagues.

I want more routine lessons from Rob...but driving to Vegas is horrible. Plus, once I get there I'm going to HAVE to bowl or else I'll be losing money at the poker tables to avoid losing money to "escorts", to avoid losing money in slot machines, etc.... Plus, if I go out there I'll have to visit a high school friend and my cousin or they'll get ticked that I went out there and didn't even stop and say hello...so ughhh...

[MICHAEL]

It was interesting that at the beginning of the clinic yesterday, the question was asked, "How many of you have a coach that you see on an on-going basis. Some of the participants raised their hands, while every coach, including the three professional Touring bowlers all raised their hands. Professional atheletes have coaches; all of them, for a reason. As to your bad experience with the free lesson, I can tell you that I received an email from the USBC asking if I would participate in the program. I said yes. I have a hunch that the person you contacted might have forgotten about the email. On behalf of the USBC Coaching Program, I offer my apologies. If you ever get to Las Vegas, I will gladly give you a free lesson to make up for his oversight.

It's a lot like AA! Alcoholic l Anonymous. Coaches are in many ways a lot lit Shrinks people go to for advise! Some of it good, some of it crap! LOL

Is Coaching needed for a gifted bowler who never had lessions..... NO,,, absolutely! I know a whole bunch that fall into that, THEY DON"T NEED ADVICE, or even want it! (:) They are at places many, ( with coaching on this site will never be including mystelf ), because of RAW TALENT! They picked it up all on their own!

I think the Pro's on TV that always have them Coaches sitting next to them, are there as a SECURITY BLANKET! Like s young child carrying a security blanket. Those Pros know it all by this point in their profession. I doub't any great revalations are given that make a difference....

They just listen, and node their heads, and have replys like: " what do you think" "Do you think its time for a ball change" " I can help you, but first you need to help yourself" LOL

RAW TALENT ..... YOU EITHER HAVE IT,,,,, OR YOU DON"T! Knowledge is IMPORTANT, but that can be found at this GREAT WEB SITE! I have learned a bunch for people like Bowl1820, Rob,,, Aslan,,,, Mike White,,, but ,,,, BUT what makes the ICEMAN,,,,, TRULY COOL,,,, well its RAW Talent!! Never had a coach but did get ONE introduction lesion along with a ball form a X pro bowler that lives here in town!

O I am not bragging.... LOL But I do have some Pretty good results considering I just got started in bowling a few years back!

Would Coaching take me to the next level,,,, I doubt it! Its a lot like going to Church! You can go to Church and have some guy/gal tell you what he thinks your life should be like, and how to interpret the bible, or you can stay home and read it yourself and come to your own conclusions!

RAW TALENT,,,,, GET THE best track Coach in the world, have him coach you to run the 100 yard dash! Will you run a 9.9? NO.. LOL Can he improve you time,,,, maybe,,, but only a tenth or so maybe.... (:)

IF you need a coach,,,, I understand,,,,, I am not saying don't go see one! JUST don't think MAGIC is going to happen! With a FEW I am sure it works.

I know that this is going to make Granny and Mike puke, but without any coaching, RA, Lupus, broken neck, herniated disk lower back, stenosis, scoliosis, can't wear shoes so I bowl in sandls non slide, I bowl two sanctioned 300 this last year, along with a several 700s, including a 780 my best. Having walked Iron many times hundreds of feet in the sky, you learn to develop a keen sense of balance and focus! Maybe that's my secret. All the above at 65! Started bowling late, in my early 60s... 62 I believe.

[Dude779]

Don't want to ruffle any feathers here, since I am new to the boards. If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber? You brought up golf, one of my passions for the last few years, And even thought I think I am okay at the game my handicap a 7, would I challenge Tiger Woods who in your words has RAW TALENT, HELL NO! But guess what Tiger has had a couple of coaches, lastly Sean Foley, could Sean beat Tiger on the links, not a chance in hell. But could he teach Tiger a few things YES! Even though I consider myself OK, I still meet with my coach every couple weeks, because he can figure out whats wrong with my game. Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject. You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope. But seeing what I have seen so far, you will proably issue a BS challenge, so be it. Take a bike ride up to Michigan, we can bowl,golf, and go to Milan Dragway where my ZX1100 screams. Just bring your money! Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>

[Amyers]

Don't want to ruffle any feathers here, since I am new to the boards. If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber? You brought up golf, one of my passions for the last few years, And even thought I think I am okay at the game my handicap a 7, would I challenge Tiger Woods who in your words has RAW TALENT, HELL NO! But guess what Tiger has had a couple of coaches, lastly Sean Foley, could Sean beat Tiger on the links, not a chance in hell. But could he teach Tiger a few things YES! Even though I consider myself OK, I still meet with my coach every couple weeks, because he can figure out whats wrong with my game. Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject. You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope. But seeing what I have seen so far, you will proably issue a BS challenge, so be it. Take a bike ride up to Michigan, we can bowl,golf, and go to Milan Dragway where my ZX1100 screams. Just bring your money! Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>

its cool Dude if we didn't have opinions what fun would this site be

[MICHAEL]

Don't want to ruffle any feathers here, since I am new to the boards. If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber? You brought up golf, one of my passions for the last few years, And even thought I think I am okay at the game my handicap a 7, would I challenge Tiger Woods who in your words has RAW TALENT, HELL NO! But guess what Tiger has had a couple of coaches, lastly Sean Foley, could Sean beat Tiger on the links, not a chance in hell. But could he teach Tiger a few things YES! Even though I consider myself OK, I still meet with my coach every couple weeks, because he can figure out whats wrong with my game. Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject. You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope. But seeing what I have seen so far, you will proably issue a BS challenge, so be it. Take a bike ride up to Michigan, we can bowl,golf, and go to Milan Dragway where my ZX1100 screams. Just bring your money! Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>

OUCH.... I have a son that was Mr golf in High School, and got a scholarship playing golf dude! Want to play him.... ?? I am a 65 years old. Fricken broken down bowling machine.... YOU ARE NEW HERE,,, LOL.... I kid Aslan, as have many on this site, I doubt he needs you to defend him!

I have had many crotch rockets myself, and did do the Kansas City Drag strip in my younger days, still probably could but more into touring now!

My son is 40, not sure your age dude, but I would put my money on HIM ANYDAY,,,, since he is right at scratch on the easy courses around here!

Hey you jump on your ZX and come down this way,,,,, bring your bowling balls, Coach, and golf clubs....LOL LIGHTEN UP DUDE!!

This is America,,, Land of free speech, and ideas! If you don't agree with me, SO WHAT? I stand by my thoughts on everything I have said.. (:)

Aslan,,,, you have a defender..... LOL LOL!!

[rv driver]

I think the Pro's on TV that always have them Coaches sitting next to them, are there as a SECURITY BLANKET! Like s young child carrying a security blanket. Those Pros know it all by this point in their profession. I doub't any great revalations are given that make a difference....

IF you need a coach,,,, I understand,,,,, I am not saying don't go see one! JUST don't think MAGIC is going to happen!
First of all, the pros have coaches for a reason, "security blanket" not being among them. They want/need an "extra eye" -- another opinion that's more objective. When you're in the zone like that, your perspective is very subjective. you need someone who can see the bigger picture.

Nobody's talking about "magic" here. We're talking incremental adjustments. In the beginning, progress is going to be made in big chunks as the basics are learned and mastered. Laster on, progress is more subtle as smaller adjustments are made and nuances are mastered.

[MICHAEL]

First of all, the pros have coaches for a reason, "security blanket" not being among them. They want/need an "extra eye" -- another opinion that's more objective. When you're in the zone like that, your perspective is very subjective. you need someone who can see the bigger picture.

maybe we bowlers should have a Third Eye located on our forehead...(:) Don't tell me that they are not in a WAY A SECURITY blanket in a way!
someone to bounce thoughts and ideas off on! Most of the time the PRO KNOWS what he needs to do, sometimes it must help to have that other person to bounce your own thoughts off of! I am good at bouncing ideas off of myself! I look at my shot and analize it each time I rowl the ball.

Nobody's talking about "magic" here. We're talking incremental adjustments. In the beginning, progress is going to be made in big chunks as the basics are learned and mastered. Laster on, progress is more subtle as smaller adjustments are made and nuances are mastered.

YES,,, that's what all average to above serious bowlers all do, I thought??

LOOK... I am not by any stretch of the imagination that I am a 220 bowler,,, but,,,, BUT on a good day I can do things that some bowlers don't!! .... I have had several 290s even 298,,,plus my last two 300s! I must have the gift, even at 65! Sure I have the body of finely turned athletic machine! I work on it 4 days a week! How many out there have a sanctioned 780.... 750s ,,several low 700s

Everything I have learned about bowling was RIGHT HERE on bowling board.com, along with Google search's! The REST is "THE GIFT"! I hate that I waited till I was 62 to start bowling! Who knows what a giant in the field of bowling I might have been????

"Of all Sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN"!

I will get that 800 this summer,,, mark it down in your memory that Iceman said it, and then did it! (:)

That will be BIG,,,, and I will do it WITHOUT ANY COACHING at the Ripe age of 65! I am as hard as a Block OF ICE,,, can push Iron Still, and I can feel IT in my bones just before things happen! 800,,,,, ICEMAN HAS you in his sights!!!!!

[rv driver]

YES,,, that's what all average to above serious bowlers all do, I thought??

LOOK... I am not by any stretch of the imagination that I am a 220 bowler,,, but,,,, BUT on a good day I can do things that some bowlers don't!! .... I have had several 290s even 298,,,plus my last two 300s! I must have the gift, even at 65! Sure I have the body of finely turned athletic machine! I work on it 4 days a week! How many out there have a sanctioned 780.... 750s ,,several low 700s

Everything I have learned about bowling was RIGHT HERE on bowling board.com, along with Google search's! The REST is "THE GIFT"! I hate that I waited till I was 62 to start bowling! Who knows what a giant in the field of bowling I might have been????

"Of all Sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN"!

I will get that 800 this summer,,, mark it down in your memory that Iceman said it, and then did it! (:)

That will be BIG,,,, and I will do it WITHOUT ANY COACHING at the Ripe age of 65! I am as hard as a Block OF ICE,,, can push Iron Still, and I can feel IT in my bones just before things happen! 800,,,,, ICEMAN HAS you in his sights!!!!!
Is it getting warm in here, or is it hot flashes? 8-P

[RobLV1]

It's not only getting warm, it's also getting pretty deep!

Seriously, Iceman is right! No amount of coaching can replace natural ability. That being said, there is no bowler on the planet that cannot benefit from good coaching in one way or another. It's not about turning everyone into a 220 average bowler or helping every bowler get to the PBA Tour. At the clinic yesterday I was able to help a senior bowler with very bad knees to modify his approach in such a way that not only will his scores go up, but he will bowl with less pain, and will probably be able to bowl for many more years. Will he ever compete with Pete Weber? No. But he was still able to take the help that I gave him and use it to increase his enjoyment of the game.

Is there any bowler out there who doesn't want to improve? I don't think so. If you average 120, then you want to average 130. If you average 200, you want to average 220. If a coach can help, why not take advantage of it?

[Aslan]

I know that this is going to make Granny and Mike puke, but without any coaching, RA, Lupus, broken neck, herniated disk lower back, stenosis, scoliosis, can't wear shoes so I bowl in sandls non slide, I bowl two sanctioned 300 this last year, along with a several 700s, including a 780 my best. Having walked Iron many times hundreds of feet in the sky, you learn to develop a keen sense of balance and focus! Maybe that's my secret. All the above at 65! Started bowling late, in my early 60s... 62 I believe.


If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber?

EXACTLY New Guy. And the answer, although Mike will have about 1200 excuses, is he's not that good and as long as he doesn't get a PBA card or go to the USBC Open...he won't have to learn that first hand. I know that sounds mean...but I see MORE people like Ice...with 200+ averages who are deathly, deathly afraid of REAL competition...and virtually ZERO bowlers like me that STRIVE for that competition.

Maybe I'm wrong. But think about it...Iceman has a team of 4 guys that he "claims" are 220+ average bowlers with EXCEPTIONAL skills. He could take that team to Reno...and they'd theoretically have a shot at all events, doubles, and singles. They could be well on their way to not only "glory" by being National Champions...but potentially Olympic aspirations...or at WORST a job as a bowling ball rep...a NICE gig for a little extra retirement income for a guy that loves to bowl!!

There's no DOWN to that scenario. If Iceman and his league of extraordinary gentlemen are as good as he claims...he has ZERO reason to stay home in St. Louis. But he will NEVER...NEVER bowl against VDub much less Pete Weber. Like most high average bowlers...his ego has FAR too much to lose...so he'll stay in St. Louis as a self proclaimed LEGEND...and I'm sure he'll rack up another 6-7 300-games. And I don't want to take away from that because he's a good bowler and he deserves credit. Lord knows I can't throw 7 strikes in a row much less 12. But don't be fooled. Those that CAN bowl at a high level DO bowl at a high level. Everyone else bowls at their local center and brags about how great they are without ever having a lesson.



Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject.
Ice DOES have me there. I mean, I am somewhat undateable and a bit of a lepper when it comes to the ladies. But thats okay. Maybe God me ugly so I would focus less on clothes and girls and more on bowling?? Its all good. I've been with my fair share of nice and beautiful ladies over the past 40 years. Probably over 30. So it's all good. I think Iceman wants to distract me from my emerging bowling awesomeness by using ladies...which I admit IS a fine strategy.


You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope.
Wow. Less than 15 posts and you already figured out Iceman! Well done. Most therapists would spend 3 years to get that good of an assesssment.


Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>

Whoa...whoa...whoa....careful. Don't tempt that Gods of banning. As one of only two that have ever been put through the "trials"....you DON'T want that!! Granted, if the same rules still apply...Iceman would have to not only vote for you to BE banned...but find 9 other people to agree. So...it's a pretty unlikely scenario. I'm as hated as Adolf Hitler and I only got 6 votes...and Iceman actually didn't vote against me on principle! Yes...while he's as delusionary as they come....he IS a man of principle....and I respect that.

[vdubtx]

I'm as hated as Adolf Hitler and I only got 6 votes...

The only reason you are still here is they didn't leave the voting open longer. :p:cool:;)
By my recollection, only a few hours.

[noeymc]

i think its both you can have raw talent and be nothing else other then raw the coach turns u into a finish product

[MICHAEL]

i think its both you can have raw talent and be nothing else other then raw the coach turns u into a finish product

well said,,,, I agree,,, RAW talent is a GIFT! IT can be refined with a GOOD COACH, or can be hindered by a crappy one! I am sure their a bunch of Good ones out there, maybe even Rob! He sounds like he knows his stuff!

NICE TIP ROB about the ball surface, maybe that's what happened to my Beatdown! I put polish on it just to see what the reaction would be, and it sucked! LOL

I will go back to the out of box surface, and not use polish! Everything Iceman knows about bowling he has learned on Bowlingboard.com! GOD BLESS THIS SITE! May it continue on FOREVER!!

[MICHAEL]

Don't want to ruffle any feathers here, since I am new to the boards. If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber? You brought up golf, one of my passions for the last few years, And even thought I think I am okay at the game my handicap a 7, would I challenge Tiger Woods who in your words has RAW TALENT, HELL NO! But guess what Tiger has had a couple of coaches, lastly Sean Foley, could Sean beat Tiger on the links, not a chance in hell. But could he teach Tiger a few things YES! Even though I consider myself OK, I still meet with my coach every couple weeks, because he can figure out whats wrong with my game. Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject. You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope. But seeing what I have seen so far, you will proably issue a BS challenge, so be it. Take a bike ride up to Michigan, we can bowl,golf, and go to Milan Dragway where my ZX1100 screams. Just bring your money! Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>


Just for your information I did challenge Pete, and THE DUKE, in a thread about a year ago..... NEVER HEARD FROM THEM..... think of how much they would have had to LOSE...... Getting beat by ICEMAN! X IRONWORK, Two years into bowling, and NO COACHING!!

YES,,,, I am sure they read my challenge,,,, but decided not to TAKE THE CHANCE,,,, BECAUSE ICEMAN on a given day, can Roll with the Best of them.

Are pete and Norm Duke better bowlers then Iceman! SURE, I am not delusional Man!!! LOL But on a give day a given challenge, Iceman can bring it home! HOW>>>> RAW TALENT! I have been in sports my whole life..... football, Track, all they through college, and then even in the ARMY won some great trophies for running High Hurdles, Low Hurdles, and the quarter mile sprint, along with the mile relay!

I was born to compete,,, I just wish I would have found bowling when I was in my early years,,,,, LIKE MY 50s..... who knows what might have happened!!!!! Howlllllllling ICEMAN!!!!!!

[MICHAEL]

It's not only getting warm, it's also getting pretty deep!

Seriously, Iceman is right! No amount of coaching can replace natural ability. That being said, there is no bowler on the planet that cannot benefit from good coaching in one way or another. It's not about turning everyone into a 220 average bowler or helping every bowler get to the PBA Tour. At the clinic yesterday I was able to help a senior bowler with very bad knees to modify his approach in such a way that not only will his scores go up, but he will bowl with less pain, and will probably be able to bowl for many more years. Will he ever compete with Pete Weber? No. But he was still able to take the help that I gave him and use it to increase his enjoyment of the game.

Is there any bowler out there who doesn't want to improve? I don't think so. If you average 120, then you want to average 130. If you average 200, you want to average 220. If a coach can help, why not take advantage of it?


Thanks Rob,,,, I think a lot of your suggestions and opinions! I know I don't know you personally, but I think if I were to take a change, and take a lesion you might be the person I would give a FIRST SHOT!

I like Vegas,,,, FUN TOWN and when we lived in modesto ca for 6 years, we would make trips there mainly for the entertainment,,, I don't gamble, or drink, but its a fun town! I got a HUGE KICK out of the Star Trek exhibit they had there for a while!

Getting ready to put my beatdown on the spinner, and work the surface polish off! Then resurface!!! Thanks bud!
!

[MICHAEL]

The only reason you are still here is they didn't leave the voting open longer. :p:cool:;)
By my recollection, only a few hours.


A little LOVE might be in order here vdubtx!! He can't help being anything other then what he is!! It's a gift,,,, RAW TALENT!! HEY ask MIKE WHITE!! When the chips are down,,,, ASLAN can DISH IT OUT!

I think I would rather take on Pete, or Norm then ASLAN on a given day!!! He seems to have that thing I am talking about called RAW TALENT! WAIT,,,,, I FORGOT,,,, HE has had many lesions form coaches!!!

IN a match,,,, could ICEMAN beat the THE ASLAN??? WE shall see,,,, I am thinking about loading up my bike with my trailer, and heading out to Vegas to meet ASLAN, and hopefully Rob! YES ICEMAN was also Born to Ride.... did 1800 miles from Modesto Ca to Kansas city MO in 2 days....! And still had a bunch left over, could have kept going!!!!!!

[MICHAEL]

Well stated Aslan!


REALLY????? Well said?? Are you related to Aslan?? LOL BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!!! (YOU KNOW THE RESON LOL)!

[MICHAEL]

Iceman makes some good points...but as usual in his brief moments between acid flashbacks...I can't say I agree with everything.

For example;
Does instruction help?
YES! BELIEVE ME...I started out in August 2013 with a 121 average, no knowledge of lateral movement, no understanding of bowling balls, and no technique to speak of. After ONE lesson...I was a 140s bowlers and knew all the basics. After TWO lessons I was a 160s bowler and a value to my team. After THREE lessons...my average has climbed into the 170s and I'm picking up over 70% of my singe-pin spares.

Ice...instruction shows you where your holes are (in your game, not yur head)...and gives you a lot of food for thought on how you might want to change one thing or another to help you. If you (like many bowlers) are too PROUD to ask for advice or admit you're not the greatest bowler ever (on pure talent)...then you will never GROW past what you are. And no matter how high your average is...if it's not being tested at the USBC open or in PBA events or even ABT events...it's meaningless. Yes....MEANINGLESS. Right now...you're the best basketball player at your local YMCA. And all the 8th graders you play against sing your praises. BUT...until you join a Gus Macker tournament...maybe try out for a real team...you're only as good as the next best player at your YMCA. And you aren't getting BETTER...because how could you!!? You're already GREAT! You're a LEGEND in your own mind....there's no room for improvement.

Aslan just needs a woman.
Disagree...and I'll tell you why in the next example.

You NEED some natural ability.
TRUE...and here's my example;

My work buddy...I've tried to get him into bowling with me. At first, he was Gung Ho about it. But he wasn't "good". And no matter how many times I tried to help...even after a lesson with a pro...he's still not good. He doesn't stand in the right place....he doesn't know what he's aiming at...30% of his shots just go in the gutter. He has LESS natural ability...then the average child. ANd I can't help him. I don't think anyone can help him!! You tell him to line up in one place...he lines up somewhere else. You tell him to aim for an arrow on the right side...his ball is in the left gutter!

AND....he recently found a woman!! And did that HELP his game!?? NOPE. Now he cares even LESS that he sucks at bowling...because he's got a horny lady friend competing for his time. Tonight, he canceled on the bowling team...because he'd rather miss out on bowling and pay the sub to play...so he can go to Disney Land on a date with his lady friend. Is it his first ever trip that he just couldn't pass on!!? Nope. He's been there 50 times, has a season pass.

H Word (that rhymes with LOWES <----quality building center) before Bros apparently! :mad:

See Ice. No coach can help you...because you're a LEGEND. And so long as you can live in that tiny world...that 1-2 centers...that THS shot beer league...there's ZERO reason to ever try to get lessons and get better. You're a LEGEND. They will write stories of you in the local paper. Now...when I'm bowling with vdub in Reno...against actual elite bowlers...and struggling to learn and get better...you "may" think that I'm a fool for doing so. Perhaps that I should instead just stay in my own center and bask in the glory of a 207 average!!

But THAT is where we differ. If there is no mountain left to climb...I'll find a new sport. When I started running...I ran in 5Ks to WIN...not just to "participate". I was running 7k every DAY!! What "glory" is there in "participating"?? And if bowling becomes me patting myself on the back for being a local "legend"...and "poo-pooing" those that are taking lessons to get better...because I'm such a natural talent....then I have OVERSTAYED my welcome as a bowler and it's time to find something a bit more challenging.

FIRST OF ALL ASLAN WAY TO FRICKEN LONG,,, I lost interest about 1/3 of the way down! Second of all....LOL,,, I don't do DRUGS, NEVER HAVE, like you! My body is my temple,,,, I would never need, or even have the desire to do drugs, unlike you! LOL

I am not a coach Aslan,,, but a WOMAN would help in your case a bunch! It helps in regards to, (giving you focus)! I know form past threads your gawking at chicks on all the other lanes while your bowling! YOU HAVE NO FOCUS, unless your bowling Mike, because you need a Woman to Love and respect! Someone that accepts you for who YOU ARE!!

It also helps with that nervous energy that has no way to relieve its self!! With God as my Witness, I will continue searching for a woman that doesn't have HIGH HOPES, and would settle for a guy such as yourself! If I didn't care,,,,, I wouldn't do it bud!!! Be looking for some new ones soon!

[Aslan]

The only reason you are still here is they didn't leave the voting open longer. :p:cool:;)
By my recollection, only a few hours.

Well….thats actually true.

[Aslan]

IN a match,,,, could ICEMAN beat the THE ASLAN??? WE shall see,,,, I am thinking about loading up my bike with my trailer, and heading out to Vegas to meet ASLAN, and hopefully Rob! YES ICEMAN was also Born to Ride.... did 1800 miles from Modesto Ca to Kansas city MO in 2 days....! And still had a bunch left over, could have kept going!!!!!!

If Iceman ever makes the trip…Aslan will meet him in Modesto or Vegas. An Iceman vs. Aslan vs. RobM SIN CITY SHOWDOWN!!?? Wow!

Granted…despite my current 3-0 record against bowlingboards.com members (ZDawg once and MWhite twice)…this would be bowling against TWO MWHITE level LEGENDS…AND…we'd be in Rob's backyard!! Last time I bowled sweeps in Vegas I shot a super duper wonderful 432!! And that included a 113!! Over 9 games in Vegas…. shot an 896 Series!! Over NINE Games!! So for Aslan to make that 3 hour drive and take down two legends (including one that is his "bowling master/teacher")…well, I should just get an honorary PBA card or something.

But yes…I accept ALL challengers!! And I haven't lost yet.


It also helps with that nervous energy that has no way to relieve its self!! With God as my Witness, I will continue searching for a woman that doesn't have HIGH HOPES, and would settle for a guy such as yourself! If I didn't care,,,,, I wouldn't do it bud!!! Be looking for some new ones soon!

Well…looking for ones without high hopes is at least a good strategy. I generally aim for ones that are either drunk enough to make a "mistake" or so disappointed with recent dating life that they just don't care and are willing to date a guy that just has a low level of common decency. Granted, both of those strategies lead to women that will eventually cheat on me when they either sober up or realize they aimed way, way too low…but at least I get a month or two of happiness out of the deal right?

Ice…I'm just trying to help you man. I don't want you…in say 13 months…to be on your death bed REGRETTING that you didn't take the Iceman Bowlarama Roadshow to Reno. You don't have much time left. I want you to DOMINATE the bowling scene in these final months!! I want to be able to say, "remember that Iceman guy that won the USBC Masters? I knew that guy." I want THAT to be my claim to fame! So far…the best claim to fame I have is I once met Greg "The Hammer" Valentine in an airport bar. I need MORE than that ICE!! I need to tell my eventual Grandchildren…that I KNEW the greatest bowler ever (not named Earl nor Walter). I want to have an Iceman bobble-head on my shelf! And you CAN do it!!! You HAVE the skills!! You HAVE the team!! So why are you sitting around in St. Louis?!! No regrets my friend…no REGRETS.

[Aslan]

If Iceman ever makes the trip…Aslan will meet him in Modesto or Vegas. An Iceman vs. Aslan vs. RobM SIN CITY SHOWDOWN!!?? Wow!

Granted…despite my current 3-0 record against bowlingboards.com members (ZDawg once and MWhite twice)…this would be bowling against TWO MWHITE level LEGENDS…AND…we'd be in Rob's backyard!! Last time I bowled sweeps in Vegas I shot a super duper wonderful 432!! And that included a 113!! Over 9 games in Vegas…. shot an 896 Series!! Over NINE Games!! So for Aslan to make that 3 hour drive and take down two legends (including one that is his "bowling master/teacher")…well, I should just get an honorary PBA card or something.


Actually…IF I WIN…IF I DEFEAT the 2 bowlingboard.com LEGENDS….on Rob's home court…I want bowlingball.com to offer me a $96,000/year salary as a bowling ball.com staffer and 3rd member of the "talk bowling" show!! Come ON bowling ball.com!! Don't you think it's a SAFE bet?!! Even if you LOSE…I'd be a hard worker…a real "card" around the office…and willing to travel to the many bowling events and serve as a bowling ambassador!!!

[Amyers]

If you do this we have to find a way to broadcast or podcast it or something I would watch

[Aslan]

If you do this we have to find a way to broadcast or podcast it or something I would watch

Uhhh…given. I mean, I bet ESPN2 might pick it up…maybe air it late night. I mean, THAT would be must see TV!!!

[noeymc]

i would love to come out there to bowl 3 games but ur on the other side of the country xD

[MICHAEL]

Actually…IF I WIN…IF I DEFEAT the 2 bowlingboard.com LEGENDS….on Rob's home court…I want bowlingball.com to offer me a $96,000/year salary as a bowling ball.com staffer and 3rd member of the "talk bowling" show!! Come ON bowling ball.com!! Don't you think it's a SAFE bet?!! Even if you LOSE…I'd be a hard worker…a real "card" around the office…and willing to travel to the many bowling events and serve as a bowling ambassador!!!


JUST FOR YOU ASLAN...... YOU are my friend, if nothing else, A DREAMER!!! Dream's are the stuff reality is made of! Dream on my friend!! Dream on!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5KeGccP9Jk