Arc vs Hockey Stick

[MICHAEL]

I really believe for me the Arc type balls, seem to give me the MORE consistent scores HERE LATELY. The Deadly Aim does have a move some where in between! How do most of you get YOUR HIGHEST Scores and Series? Arc or Hokey Stick flip movement.

I must say, honestly that my last two perfect games were with hockey stick movement,,, pin up on both balls, and kicked out to the right of the ring finger.

The deadly aim I believe is going to give me something Big soon... last two weeks been averaging 235. (Now I know two weeks don't mean squat...lol but the movement leaves very few,, 10 pin!)

Where as with the hockey stick movement, it was either on,,, or off, leaving lots of 10 pins!

WHICH MOVEMENT SCORES the BEST FOR YOU!!

[zdawg]

Arc, and for the very reason you mentioned - if I try to rely on a hockey stick style movement I tend to either leave a lot 10 pins, OR even worse I overhook and miss left of the headpin (especially as the night wears on conditions get crappier).

[Amyers]

Well I only have the one ball at the moment my Seismic Euphoria it's more of a hockey stick especially on the light light-medium conditions it was meant for. From what I have seen hockey sticks score higher if they are dialed in but if not they are harder to adjust than more arc balls are.

[MICHAEL]

Well I only have the one ball at the moment my Seismic Euphoria it's more of a hockey stick especially on the light light-medium conditions it was meant for. From what I have seen hockey sticks score higher if they are dialed in but if not they are harder to adjust than more arc balls are.


I agree,,, when the conditions are right, THAT hockey stick movement CAN and does give me some super games, but when its not working, lots of WHAT I CALL ALMOST GOOD SHOTS, with the 10 pin, 7, ect.

I wonder if it has ever been studied to see if a Walter Ray type of shot gives a EDGE in scoring?

I think of Belmo,,,, and its doesn't seem to get more hockey stick then his entry into the pocket.... is that the future,,, will the young be coming out of high school an college throwing two handed?

Can the Walter Ray style compete with the Two Handers in the LONG RUN..... time will tell!

[mc_runner]

With my previous release I couldn't control the arc at all and was getting good reactions only with hockey-stick balls. Now it's the opposite, I can only control the reaction with my solid/arc ball and I'm struggling a lot with the skid/flip balls.

[Aslan]

Can the Walter Ray style compete with the Two Handers in the LONG RUN..... time will tell!

Simple answer? Yes. Last I checked, he's still the best bowler in the world and has been since the 90s. He just won the senior masters for crying out loud!

STRAIGHTER IS GREATER!!! It always has been. It always will be.

Sure, you can go 2-handed or thumbless…and like Belmo and Osku…when you are "on"…you're practically unbeatable!

But….BUT….when you're "off"…or when conditions aren't behaving the way you need them to….you're very, very beatable by a stroker with a straighter game. WRW, Norm Duke, PDW, Parker Bohn III….ALL these guys are legends that STILL dominate their opponents. And these guys are what? IN their 50s??

Hey man, it's all good. Hooking the ball is fun, I get that. And these new styles are fun to mess with, I get that. But I just think it's crazy that we even ask the question, "Can a person win throwing like WRW"…when WRW is STILL the best bowler in the WORLD!!! I mean, I understand the mathematics here and the assumption that should Belmo stay on his current path that he could pass WRW…BUT… BUT… there are also substantiated rumors that claim both Belmo and Osku are suffering from early back problems that may limit their ability to keep throwing 2-handed in the not too distant future. So, I'm sticking with the title holders like WRW and Duke and Weber until one of these new guys ACTUALLY takes the lead.

[MICHAEL]

Simple answer? Yes. Last I checked, he's still the best bowler in the world and has been since the 90s. He just won the senior masters for crying out loud!

STRAIGHTER IS GREATER!!! It always has been. It always will be.

Sure, you can go 2-handed or thumbless…and like Belmo and Osku…when you are "on"…you're practically unbeatable!

But….BUT….when you're "off"…or when conditions aren't behaving the way you need them to….you're very, very beatable by a stroker with a straighter game. WRW, Norm Duke, PDW, Parker Bohn III….ALL these guys are legends that STILL dominate their opponents. And these guys are what? IN their 50s??

Hey man, it's all good. Hooking the ball is fun, I get that. And these new styles are fun to mess with, I get that. But I just think it's crazy that we even ask the question, "Can a person win throwing like WRW"…when WRW is STILL the best bowler in the WORLD!!! I mean, I understand the mathematics here and the assumption that should Belmo stay on his current path that he could pass WRW…BUT… BUT… there are also substantiated rumors that claim both Belmo and Osku are suffering from early back problems that may limit their ability to keep throwing 2-handed in the not too distant future. So, I'm sticking with the title holders like WRW and Duke and Weber until one of these new guys ACTUALLY takes the lead.

Hey,,, Lion man, Iceman agrees with you. The guy that I mentioned won the AMF Big 22 last year and 2nd this year, is 60 years along with his partner, throws a lot like WRW and Norm Duke.
I as much agreed when the big hook flip is on,,, its almost,,, ALMOST unbeatable, but when its not, it can be WAY OFF!!

I didn't know that WRW was ranked number 1 in the PBA? YES I know that he is still a hell of a bowler, along with Norm Duke, but I had no idea in the current rankings he was number 1. Are you B.S. Iceman... I know you love the guy,,, but is he number 1????

[Aslan]

Yes Iceman.

WRW holds 47 PBA titles, 37 more than Jason Belmonte. He leads Earl Anthony by 4. Jason Belmonte is currently in a multi-person tie for 41st on that list.

Even if you only count guys that are active in the PBA (not PBA50)…that have won titles in the last year…Belmonte ranks 8th. Even if you only count bowlers that have won in 2014, he ranks 2nd behind Chris Barnes…Barnes has 17; 7 more than Belmonte.

Where guys like Belmonte and Rash fair well, is when you compare titles won to years active…but thats a deceptive stat since many PBA bowlers today have been actively bowling since they were children. Many of the old timers, many started actively bowling in their 20s and didn't start bowling PBA till their mid-late 30s.

But in terms of titles, which is what the PBA has always used as a measuring stick…it's really no comparison at this point.

[Amyers]

Simple answer? Yes. Last I checked, he's still the best bowler in the world and has been since the 90s. He just won the senior masters for crying out loud!

STRAIGHTER IS GREATER!!! It always has been. It always will be.

Sure, you can go 2-handed or thumbless…and like Belmo and Osku…when you are "on"…you're practically unbeatable!

But….BUT….when you're "off"…or when conditions aren't behaving the way you need them to….you're very, very beatable by a stroker with a straighter game. WRW, Norm Duke, PDW, Parker Bohn III….ALL these guys are legends that STILL dominate their opponents. And these guys are what? IN their 50s??

Hey man, it's all good. Hooking the ball is fun, I get that. And these new styles are fun to mess with, I get that. But I just think it's crazy that we even ask the question, "Can a person win throwing like WRW"…when WRW is STILL the best bowler in the WORLD!!! I mean, I understand the mathematics here and the assumption that should Belmo stay on his current path that he could pass WRW…BUT… BUT… there are also substantiated rumors that claim both Belmo and Osku are suffering from early back problems that may limit their ability to keep throwing 2-handed in the not too distant future. So, I'm sticking with the title holders like WRW and Duke and Weber until one of these new guys ACTUALLY takes the lead.

I know WRW is great and PDW is my favorite. I enjoy watching Duke but this is a different question it's about today and the future not 20 years ago. I'm not a big fan of two handers but if we are talking about the present then the answer is No. The ability to play up the back of the ball is a nice piece to have in the bag but it's not going to win most of the time. Dose that mean lofting the gutter caps is the wave of the future either no it's not but most of the time it's going to come down to who puts it in the pocket at the best angle with the most power. That is rarely going to happen with WRW style bowling. Eventually I believe the ball manufactures will produce balls that eliminate the advantage and the necessity of Belmo's style but until they do he has an advantage it's real it can be overcome and I'm not changing over to two handed delivery I'm to old for that crap. All these guys are exceptionally accurate the only real differences are what's in their head and how they throw. The power guys have the advantage and I don't see that changing soon.

[Aslan]

That is rarely going to happen with WRW style bowling.

…except for the 47 times he won a PBA title. And while yes, much of that is the fact that his style and skill currently hold the record for spare shooting percentage…to say that this style cannot produce a high strike rate….WRW ALSO holds the 2nd highest strike % in a single season.

And you have to ask yourself…WHO BENEFITS as ball technology increases?

MOST people would say that when reactive resin hit the scene…it was the crankers that got hurt. Suddenly the strokers could get more entry angle without developing the less accurate cranker release. Why do you think casual/league scores keep going up? Because more people are developing a more modern release? Most league bowlers don't even know what "timing" is.

Don't take my for for it. Google it…read all the articles about who benefitted most from reactive resin. And who it harmed the most. As equipment keeps getting stronger, accuracy will be more and more important. Repeatability will be more and more important.

And like I said…we're talking about a bowler with 47 titles and over 4 million in career earnings. And everyone is acting like those are just "numbers" that don't matter because right this second Jason Belmonte is regarded as the greatest bowler. Do you know how many "Jason Belmontes" we've had over the years??

Case Study: Bill O'Neil
College player of the year 3 of the 4 years he was in college. PBA Rookie of the Year in 2006. Internationally won a gold medal.

But Bill didn't win his first PBA title until 2009 (3 years after winning PBA rookie of the year). Bill just won his 5th PBA title at the Badger Open (2014). He's won about $650,000 in 8 years. He's never once been named PBA Player of the Year.

Walter Ray never won rookie of the year…and has had an extra 18 seasons. But in not quite 3x as much time on the tour, he's amassed over 7x Bill's earnings…and has won PBA player of the year 7 times. Almost the entire time Bill was on the tour, he played against WRW.

My point is, had you asked people back in 2006 who the greatest bowler ever was…many might have said that despite PDW, WRW and Earl Anthony's numbers…Bill O'Neil would certainly surpass them…because he's the REAL DEAL. Yet between two modern release geniuses…Fagan and O'Neil…not even 1/4 the titles of WRW, PDW, Norm Duke, OR Earl Anthony.

But "this time"…with Belmo…it's "different"? This time…he IS the real deal?? Sorry. I've heard it all before. IF Belmo's back can hold out…and assuming the PBA can stay solvent…I predict Belmo to win 23 titles before he either turns 50 or retires. Thats not even half what Earl or WRW have.

This soapbox is about to collapse…I digress.

[Amyers]

…except for the 47 times he won a PBA title. And while yes, much of that is the fact that his style and skill currently hold the record for spare shooting percentage…to say that this style cannot produce a high strike rate….WRW ALSO holds the 2nd highest strike % in a single season.

And you have to ask yourself…WHO BENEFITS as ball technology increases?

MOST people would say that when reactive resin hit the scene…it was the crankers that got hurt. Suddenly the strokers could get more entry angle without developing the less accurate cranker release. Why do you think casual/league scores keep going up? Because more people are developing a more modern release? Most league bowlers don't even know what "timing" is.

Don't take my for for it. Google it…read all the articles about who benefitted most from reactive resin. And who it harmed the most. As equipment keeps getting stronger, accuracy will be more and more important. Repeatability will be more and more important.

And like I said…we're talking about a bowler with 47 titles and over 4 million in career earnings. And everyone is acting like those are just "numbers" that don't matter because right this second Jason Belmonte is regarded as the greatest bowler. Do you know how many "Jason Belmontes" we've had over the years??

Case Study: Bill O'Neil
College player of the year 3 of the 4 years he was in college. PBA Rookie of the Year in 2006. Internationally won a gold medal.

But Bill didn't win his first PBA title until 2009 (3 years after winning PBA rookie of the year). Bill just won his 5th PBA title at the Badger Open (2014). He's won about $650,000 in 8 years. He's never once been named PBA Player of the Year.

Walter Ray never won rookie of the year…and has had an extra 18 seasons. But in not quite 3x as much time on the tour, he's amassed over 7x Bill's earnings…and has won PBA player of the year 7 times. Almost the entire time Bill was on the tour, he played against WRW.

My point is, had you asked people back in 2006 who the greatest bowler ever was…many might have said that despite PDW, WRW and Earl Anthony's numbers…Bill O'Neil would certainly surpass them…because he's the REAL DEAL. Yet between two modern release geniuses…Fagan and O'Neil…not even 1/4 the titles of WRW, PDW, Norm Duke, OR Earl Anthony.

But "this time"…with Belmo…it's "different"? This time…he IS the real deal?? Sorry. I've heard it all before. IF Belmo's back can hold out…and assuming the PBA can stay solvent…I predict Belmo to win 23 titles before he either turns 50 or retires. Thats not even half what Earl or WRW have.

This soapbox is about to collapse…I digress.


My response is not about the past or Jason Belmonte. My point is in general the power guys have an advantage over the old school up the back of the ball guys. I respect what WRW has one in the past are any of these guys ever going to equal what he has done? Most likely not especially on the money side. Does that mean I expect to see a bunch of young WRW style bowlers take over the PBA? Heck no not a chance the power guys have too big of an advantage built in with modern equipment.

I am not a Belmonte fan give me a match of Duke vs. PDW any day and I'll watch it but the game has changed accept it. If they don't come up with something on the ball side in the next few years traditional bowling will be dead and all we will have is these two handers and a few big power guys. I'm seeing too much of it in the junior leagues right now.

[got_a_300]

I have found that when all of the conditions are just
right and I can get a smooth consistent arc into the
pocket I can get some pretty good scores.

But when the conditions are just right for the hockey
stick type of hook I can get some bigger scores but
everything has to go just perfect for that shot to work
just right.

[rv driver]

Simple answer? Yes. Last I checked, he's still the best bowler in the world and has been since the 90s. He just won the senior masters for crying out loud!

STRAIGHTER IS GREATER!!! It always has been. It always will be.

Sure, you can go 2-handed or thumbless…and like Belmo and Osku…when you are "on"…you're practically unbeatable!

But….BUT….when you're "off"…or when conditions aren't behaving the way you need them to….you're very, very beatable by a stroker with a straighter game. WRW, Norm Duke, PDW, Parker Bohn III….ALL these guys are legends that STILL dominate their opponents. And these guys are what? IN their 50s??

Hey man, it's all good. Hooking the ball is fun, I get that. And these new styles are fun to mess with, I get that. But I just think it's crazy that we even ask the question, "Can a person win throwing like WRW"…when WRW is STILL the best bowler in the WORLD!!! I mean, I understand the mathematics here and the assumption that should Belmo stay on his current path that he could pass WRW…BUT… BUT… there are also substantiated rumors that claim both Belmo and Osku are suffering from early back problems that may limit their ability to keep throwing 2-handed in the not too distant future. So, I'm sticking with the title holders like WRW and Duke and Weber until one of these new guys ACTUALLY takes the lead.
I agree! You know, I was watching a vid of Belmonte not long ago, and it struck me how much bodily stress is involved in two-handed bowling.

[rv driver]

…except for the 47 times he won a PBA title. And while yes, much of that is the fact that his style and skill currently hold the record for spare shooting percentage…to say that this style cannot produce a high strike rate….WRW ALSO holds the 2nd highest strike % in a single season.

And you have to ask yourself…WHO BENEFITS as ball technology increases?

MOST people would say that when reactive resin hit the scene…it was the crankers that got hurt. Suddenly the strokers could get more entry angle without developing the less accurate cranker release. Why do you think casual/league scores keep going up? Because more people are developing a more modern release? Most league bowlers don't even know what "timing" is.

Don't take my for for it. Google it…read all the articles about who benefitted most from reactive resin. And who it harmed the most. As equipment keeps getting stronger, accuracy will be more and more important. Repeatability will be more and more important.

And like I said…we're talking about a bowler with 47 titles and over 4 million in career earnings. And everyone is acting like those are just "numbers" that don't matter because right this second Jason Belmonte is regarded as the greatest bowler. Do you know how many "Jason Belmontes" we've had over the years??

Case Study: Bill O'Neil
College player of the year 3 of the 4 years he was in college. PBA Rookie of the Year in 2006. Internationally won a gold medal.

But Bill didn't win his first PBA title until 2009 (3 years after winning PBA rookie of the year). Bill just won his 5th PBA title at the Badger Open (2014). He's won about $650,000 in 8 years. He's never once been named PBA Player of the Year.

Walter Ray never won rookie of the year…and has had an extra 18 seasons. But in not quite 3x as much time on the tour, he's amassed over 7x Bill's earnings…and has won PBA player of the year 7 times. Almost the entire time Bill was on the tour, he played against WRW.

My point is, had you asked people back in 2006 who the greatest bowler ever was…many might have said that despite PDW, WRW and Earl Anthony's numbers…Bill O'Neil would certainly surpass them…because he's the REAL DEAL. Yet between two modern release geniuses…Fagan and O'Neil…not even 1/4 the titles of WRW, PDW, Norm Duke, OR Earl Anthony.

But "this time"…with Belmo…it's "different"? This time…he IS the real deal?? Sorry. I've heard it all before. IF Belmo's back can hold out…and assuming the PBA can stay solvent…I predict Belmo to win 23 titles before he either turns 50 or retires. Thats not even half what Earl or WRW have.

This soapbox is about to collapse…I digress.
Yeah, but I think you're right. People like WRW, PW, a Duke are onto because they're good, they're smart, and their style allows them to ADJUST. I've seen all of the these guys throwing different kinds of deliveries. Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking at, but it *appears* to me as if Belmonte is more lane condition-dependent than these other bowlers.

[Amyers]

I agree! You know, I was watching a vid of Belmonte not long ago, and it struck me how much bodily stress is involved in two-handed bowling.

I know I couldn't do it. Way to much torque on the body.

[Amyers]

Yeah, but I think you're right. People like WRW, PW, a Duke are onto because they're good, they're smart, and their style allows them to ADJUST. I've seen all of the these guys throwing different kinds of deliveries. Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking at, but it *appears* to me as if Belmonte is more lane condition-dependent than these other bowlers.

Belmonte struggles on the shorter lane oil patterns. But he beat Rash where they each picked the pattern on one of the lanes a while back. I have wondered and to preface this I haven't watched any PBA bowling until about a year ago if some of these shorter patterns were not installed especially to hinder the Belmonte type bowlers. Were these extreme short patterns played before he hit the scene? I believe Duke may be the most versatile bowler I have ever seen he is capable of changing his shot more than anyone else I have seen. PDW shot just seems to work regardless of what's going on with the lanes it never really looks like he changes it just works I'm not sure which is more impressive.

[rv driver]

I know I couldn't do it. Way to much torque on the body.
No doubt!

[RobLV1]

I think that it's about time that we start accepting the differences between the bowling that we do and the bowling that the professionals do. The fact of the matter is that Jason Belmonte is the most powerful bowler on the planet and, as he has proven over and over again in the past couple of years, he will win against a great majority of opponents. Just because league bowlers can't do what the pros can do, doesn't mean that "straighter is greater." Personally, I can't hit 300 yard drives like the PGA pros, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to try and tell you that the shortest hitter on the PGA Tour is the best golfer. I'm afraid that the line has been drawn in the sand in regards to Professional Bowling: more power = more success, and regardless of how good Walter Ray was, and still is, he cannot compete week in and week out against the modern power game. I hate to agree with Randy Pedersen about anything, but when he says that when Jason Belmonte's game is on, he's unbeatable, I can't help but agree.

[zdawg]

I hate to agree with Randy Pedersen about anything, but when he says that when Jason Belmonte's game is on, he's unbeatable, I can't help but agree.

I completely agree with that as well, he's tearing it up quite literally. I experiment now and then with the two handed style, last season particularly when our team was getting destroyed and our captain didn't mind - and while I'm not particularly consistent with it, the power when I would hit a strike had everybody ooh'ng and ah'ng so I can see why it appeals to the younger crowd.

[RobLV1]

Someone else who has been playing with the two handed style from time to time is Walter Ray.

[Hampe]

Haha..... Don't tell Aslan that, Rob.... His worldview will collapse :D

[fortheloveofbowling]

Someone else who has been playing with the two handed style from time to time is Walter Ray.
I have have seen him do it on xtra frame.

[rv driver]

I fear that bowling is a lot like Nascar. It was a different sport when the old guys were jacking up their '52 Plymouths and running around a dirt track straight out of their barns. But the old guys can't compete in today's Nascar. It's a different sport, with different tracks, different equipment, and a different approach.

[Aslan]

Haha..... Don't tell Aslan that, Rob.... His worldview will collapse :D
Already knew that. WRW talked about it briefly in an interview. Rumor has it Belmonte has also bowled 1-handed. And also, I bowled thumbless 2 games last week (practice). Just thought I'd add to the random thoughts that in the big picture mean nothing.


But the old guys can't compete in today's Nascar.
I've forwarded your concerns to the USBC to strip him (WRW) of his 2014 Senior Masters title he won last month. I've also emailed Walter Ray to inform him he should retire, perhaps go sit in a 52' Plymouth in a field somewhere. No response just yet.

[rv driver]

Already knew that. WRW talked about it briefly in an interview. Rumor has it Belmonte has also bowled 1-handed. And also, I bowled thumbless 2 games last week (practice). Just thought I'd add to the random thoughts that in the big picture mean nothing.


I've forwarded your concerns to the USBC to strip him (WRW) of his 2014 Senior Masters title he won last month. I've also emailed Walter Ray to inform him he should retire, perhaps go sit in a 52' Plymouth in a field somewhere. No response just yet.
The point was, Dear Aslan, that WRW isn't an "old guy." People like Earl Anthony, Don Carter, Johnny Petraglia, etc. are the "old guys." Richard Petty's no spring chicken, but he's definitely not driving his '52 Plymouth in races.

While I'm not disparaging these guys at all -- Heck, Anthony's still the best of the best -- I just don't think they played the same game that's being played today. Could Don Carter compete with today's equipment? I don't know? Would he even want to? I don't know.

The game has changed and is continuing to change. Players like WRW, PDW, and Duke are able to keep winning, because they have adapted to the new game successfully. I suspect there will always be players like that as long as pro bowling continues.

[Aslan]

While I'm not disparaging these guys at all -- Heck, Anthony's still the best of the best -- I just don't think they played the same game that's being played today. Could Don Carter compete with today's equipment? I don't know? Would he even want to? I don't know.

The game has changed and is continuing to change. Players like WRW, PDW, and Duke are able to keep winning, because they have adapted to the new game successfully. I suspect there will always be players like that as long as pro bowling continues.

I think you need to watch the USBC Senior Masters. Were there some guys there with more modern swings...sure. PDW and Montacelli. And they both did very well. But Walter Ray still throws the way he did 20 years ago. I've watched a ton of video on him and while I'm sure he's tweaked things here and there...he hasn't changed much.

Also, if you listen to him or you listen to other experts comment on him...or if you read the many articles on the changing game of bowling and how it's affected players...the overwhelming consensus is:

1) WRW says he plays a straighter shot. He says he "can" play a higher rev game BUT it decreases his accuracy and he feels he's most competitive with his shot the way it is.
2) People that comment on WRW echo that. He is "capable" of doing anything on the lanes...even bowl 2-handed...but why would he? He has 47 titles and leads the PBA in money earnings.
3) WRW DID move to the PBA50 seniors tour...but thats as much "age" related as it is "the game has passed him by". He admits it's getting harder to compete against the young, power players...but PDW still plays against the young guys (and beats them) and WRW has easily handled PDW head to head.
4) The changing game hasn't HURT guys like PDW and Bohn and WRW. The consensus opinion is the changing equipment has actually HELPED those players stay competitive because the equipment is giving them more help without forcing them to become "power" players.

The best case study for this is Mark Roth.

Before there was a Belmonte, many years before, there was a "Mark Roth". And the general opinion by everyone at that time, including his peers...was that Roth was the "best" and most capable of beating anyone on any given day. Like Belmonte, he was getting much more power and angle than his fellow competitors and was doing it accurately.

Now, Roth ended up having health issues related to his style (as Belmonte has). He had thumb issues, elbow issues, wrist issues...but ultimately...what hurt Roth the most was reactive resin technology. Suddenly his more accuracte, straighter competitors were getting more hook, more angle, and more power...without trying to change their game to match Mark Roth. Suddenly, Mark lost his advantage. He was still a formidable opponent for many, many years...and one of the greatest bowlers of all time...but had reactive resin never shown up...the general opinion is he'd have stayed relatively healthy (after making adjustments to his grip to help his thumb problems) and would probably have surpassed Earl Anthony at some point in titles.

Like your Nascar example...Petty showed up with a car that was so dominant, Nascar changed the rules to help competition. Once all the other good drivers had similar cars...Petty was still great, but not as dominant as he was before. You can give a bad driver a faster car and that driver will suddenly be more competitive...but if you give a faster car to a driver that is already great...then that great driver is almost unbeatable....until everyone else has the same car...then it's more of a wash. Thats why so many people get suspicious in Nascar when a guy like Jeff Gordon starts winning race after race after race. Suddenly everyone assumes he "must" be cheating. Because Nascar is designed for it to be very even technologically speaking...and usually a driver can't consistently "out drive" or "out pit" his opponents EVERY time...so if someone is winning "too much"...he's probably found an edge and Nascar needs to step in.

WRW is like Mario Andretti. He's still the best...and if you give him a faster car...he's just going to be that much better. And my main point in the discussion is...WRW isn't Carmen Salvino or Mike Limongello...he's not some retired guy running a pro shop somewhere that can't compete. WRW is STILL winning...he beat Bohn, Montacelli, PDW, and many other big names and took 1st place at that Masters LAST MONTH! And I can almost GUARANTEE that the young guns in the PBA right now, even Rash and Belmonte, would MUCH prefer WRW stay in the PBA50 so they don't have to face him in the stepladder finals anymore. Because he's not "done". He's not put out to pasture.

And this isn't a new issue...when Roth debuted...everyone claimed that the age of the stroker was over and if you didn't become a "cranker", like Roth, you might as well quit bowling. That mindset ended a lot of bowling careers as old timers blew out their backs, knees, shoulders, elbows, and wrists. And then came resin...and then the crankers started whining that it wasn't "fair" and it was ruining the game...because now any beginner bowler could walk out and make a ball hook 6-12 boards with relatively little effort. Now we have Roth Part 2...Jason Belmonte. And many people are saying that the whole bowling world will convert to 2-handed...and if ya don't, you'll get left behind. And I fear, this will lead to the same result as Roth Part I. A LOT of back problems...and ultimately equipment will advance to the point that 2-handed isn't as necessary.

Thats my take.

[Aslan]

I also want to add...the reason many people still say "straighter is greater" is NOT just some stubbornness not to change. I've thrown thumbless...I've thrown high rev like a cranker....it's fun! I can see the "draw" of that style for casual bowlers.

BUT...bowling straight, with all it's negatives (power, angle, room for error) has advantages that most people don't consider:

Case Study: MWhite vs. Aslan

Match #1: 1st Annual BHMSCInv Tournament
Aslan WINS! Why?
- it was handicap...so, thats part of it. Mike actually won scratch.
- BUT...if you look at what happened in that tournament, and you filter out all the "excuses" and "opinions"...it was very easy to see that the lane conditions were wreaking havoc on both ZDawg and MWhite. ZDawg's low speed, higher rev style meant that as soon as the ball hit the dry area in front of the pin deck...his ball acted erratically. Mike also had problems figuring out how to get his ball into the pocket...with his higher speed but very high rev shot.

In both cases, these guys arguably had the better, more modern releases. Mike White actually has a very nice release if you ever get a chance to see him bowl. For a guy with past injuries, he makes getting monster revs almost seem effortless....and he's quite consistent and accurate. So why did they lose?

My opinion/analysis:
Because I used less revs, a straighter shot, and lesser equipment. That SEEMS backwards...but at the end of the day...the erratic lane conditions had LESS of an effect on me than it did on them. I was able to squeak out a victory (ZDawg had a shot in the 10th in game 3 of beating me) because the conditions didn't help me...but they didn't hurt me.

Match #2: Aslan vs. MWhite Wood Lanes Challenge
AGAIN...Mike, better bowler, very nice, modern release...lots of speed and lots of revs.

And he learned his lesson from match #1...his higher speed would "help" him on wood lanes...AND...he used plastic/urethane to limit the negative effects of the wood lanes. AND...this would be SCRATCH.

So what happened? Believe it or not...even with a plastic ball...that dang ball would NOT stay right of the headpin!! Mike's revs were SO effective...that he couldn't even keep a plastic ball right of the headpin!! So how did I accomplish the unthinkable?? How did I beat a bowler with 35 years of experience and a 200+ average (scratch)?? I'm NOT a better bowler. I'm Not!! Well,

1) They were my home lanes. I've bowled 100s of games on those lanes and even that night had bowled several games on one of the lanes of the pair...so I had home field advantage big time.
2) I play a straight game...the lanes don't affect my ball movement "as much" because I don't play a high rev game.

Point? The modern release gives you a great little advantage when lane conditions are ideal and match your game. But changes in lane conditions...poor maintenance of lanes...dirty lanes...dry lanes...neglected lanes...heavily oiled lanes...lanes with a sport pattern...lanes with spots where cosmic bowlers fell on them...whatever the condition...has an exponentially higher effect (positive or negative...but usually negative) on a high rev rate (modern release).

Listen...I agree with Mike...the better you get, the more lane conditions impact your game. I've had absolutely miserable times bowling at certain places where the oil is just so heavy and I don't have an answer for it. And it forces me to bowl so straight that I literally have < 2 boards one way or the other to hit the pocket. I "get it". I'm just saying the biggest advantages of "straight" are in spare shooting and when lane conditions aren't ideal/predictable.

Obviously...developing a better (more modern) release is on my "to-do" list...because had I played MWhite (or even ZDawg) in Vegas (heavy oil, consistent pattern)...I'd have probably lost. Mike would have a huge advantage with his Mastermind and consistent, high rev shot. He might have to slightly adjust speed or angle...but after 5-10 frames I think he'd be putting up 200+ games. And ZDawg, with higher revs and lower speed...also would likely have some success. His shot is less refined as Mike's...so I think Mike would have a definite edge...but I think ZDawg beats me. So I'm not "poo pooing" the modern release...I'm just saying it's not the holy grail everyone makes it out to be. My opinion.

[rv driver]

Oh, I agree with all of this, Aslan. But I think we're looking at two sides of the same coin. both sides "spend" equally. But Earl Anthony and Mark Roth (and I was into the game seriously when Mark appeared and got hot, so I know about M.R.) both knew that in order to stay competitive, they had to change their game. The point where I disagree with you is that WRW has changed his game, or he wouldn't have stayed competitive. Did he become a clone of someone else? No, but his game has changed to adapt his unique style to changing conditions.

I think there will always be crankers and strokers and two-handed and thumbless, and all other sorts of nonsense in the game. I think every smart player will find a way to get the ball hard into the pocket with a decent entry angle. I think some people will continue to adjust their delivery to changing lane conditions, while others will end up bringing 15 balls to every game in order to adjust their equipment to changing lane conditions -- and some will be a mix of the two. I don't think a stroker straight ball is archaic -- but it is different than it was in the 1960s, just as cranking is now different than it was in Roth's heyday.

I appreciate your comments. You love the game. You're opinionated. I'd love to bowl with you sometime. Keep up the good work.

[Amyers]

I also want to add...the reason many people still say "straighter is greater" is NOT just some stubbornness not to change. I've thrown thumbless...I've thrown high rev like a cranker....it's fun! I can see the "draw" of that style for casual bowlers.

BUT...bowling straight, with all it's negatives (power, angle, room for error) has advantages that most people don't consider:

Case Study: MWhite vs. Aslan

Match #1: 1st Annual BHMSCInv Tournament
Aslan WINS! Why?
- it was handicap...so, thats part of it. Mike actually won scratch.
- BUT...if you look at what happened in that tournament, and you filter out all the "excuses" and "opinions"...it was very easy to see that the lane conditions were wreaking havoc on both ZDawg and MWhite. ZDawg's low speed, higher rev style meant that as soon as the ball hit the dry area in front of the pin deck...his ball acted erratically. Mike also had problems figuring out how to get his ball into the pocket...with his higher speed but very high rev shot.

In both cases, these guys arguably had the better, more modern releases. Mike White actually has a very nice release if you ever get a chance to see him bowl. For a guy with past injuries, he makes getting monster revs almost seem effortless....and he's quite consistent and accurate. So why did they lose?

My opinion/analysis:
Because I used less revs, a straighter shot, and lesser equipment. That SEEMS backwards...but at the end of the day...the erratic lane conditions had LESS of an effect on me than it did on them. I was able to squeak out a victory (ZDawg had a shot in the 10th in game 3 of beating me) because the conditions didn't help me...but they didn't hurt me.

Match #2: Aslan vs. MWhite Wood Lanes Challenge
AGAIN...Mike, better bowler, very nice, modern release...lots of speed and lots of revs.

And he learned his lesson from match #1...his higher speed would "help" him on wood lanes...AND...he used plastic/urethane to limit the negative effects of the wood lanes. AND...this would be SCRATCH.

So what happened? Believe it or not...even with a plastic ball...that dang ball would NOT stay right of the headpin!! Mike's revs were SO effective...that he couldn't even keep a plastic ball right of the headpin!! So how did I accomplish the unthinkable?? How did I beat a bowler with 35 years of experience and a 200+ average (scratch)?? I'm NOT a better bowler. I'm Not!! Well,

1) They were my home lanes. I've bowled 100s of games on those lanes and even that night had bowled several games on one of the lanes of the pair...so I had home field advantage big time.
2) I play a straight game...the lanes don't affect my ball movement "as much" because I don't play a high rev game.

Point? The modern release gives you a great little advantage when lane conditions are ideal and match your game. But changes in lane conditions...poor maintenance of lanes...dirty lanes...dry lanes...neglected lanes...heavily oiled lanes...lanes with a sport pattern...lanes with spots where cosmic bowlers fell on them...whatever the condition...has an exponentially higher effect (positive or negative...but usually negative) on a high rev rate (modern release).

Listen...I agree with Mike...the better you get, the more lane conditions impact your game. I've had absolutely miserable times bowling at certain places where the oil is just so heavy and I don't have an answer for it. And it forces me to bowl so straight that I literally have < 2 boards one way or the other to hit the pocket. I "get it". I'm just saying the biggest advantages of "straight" are in spare shooting and when lane conditions aren't ideal/predictable.

Obviously...developing a better (more modern) release is on my "to-do" list...because had I played MWhite (or even ZDawg) in Vegas (heavy oil, consistent pattern)...I'd have probably lost. Mike would have a huge advantage with his Mastermind and consistent, high rev shot. He might have to slightly adjust speed or angle...but after 5-10 frames I think he'd be putting up 200+ games. And ZDawg, with higher revs and lower speed...also would likely have some success. His shot is less refined as Mike's...so I think Mike would have a definite edge...but I think ZDawg beats me. So I'm not "poo pooing" the modern release...I'm just saying it's not the holy grail everyone makes it out to be. My opinion.

Aslan all of this has more to do with knowing your conditions than bowling style. There will always be conditions out there on the extremes that can give you a huge advantage if you understand them. If you want to be the next WRW great good luck and I'm not telling you to change you can be good with your current style just not sure that it can be great. I think the modern release is overblown although it does look nice. Anything that is repeatable that gives you the power and revs to be where you want to be works.

Would you believe I know an alley where my 11 year old who averages about 110 could beat me? On a regular basis? It's in Kentucky went there on a trip decided to bowl a few games. The heads were so burnt that my euphoria before I changed the surface started hooking almost as soon as it hit the lane. The approaches were so sticky I couldn't even slide my foot on them I threw a 70 and quit after my third fall. There are always conditions that get you if I ever went back plastic ball and slicker soles for my shoes maybe I could do better.

[fortheloveofbowling]

[
Would you believe I know an alley where my 11 year old who averages about 110 could beat me? On a regular basis? It's in Kentucky went there on a trip decided to bowl a few games. The heads were so burnt that my euphoria before I changed the surface started hooking almost as soon as it hit the lane.

Amyers, I believe you on that kentucky house. Probably the best bowling i have done in my life league wise was in a 12 lane house in kentucky i bowled league in during mid to late 80's. I had a composite for those years of 212 and had to play 3-4 arrow with either a polished udot or yellow dot. I wish i threw it that well now.

[Amyers]

[
Would you believe I know an alley where my 11 year old who averages about 110 could beat me? On a regular basis? It's in Kentucky went there on a trip decided to bowl a few games. The heads were so burnt that my euphoria before I changed the surface started hooking almost as soon as it hit the lane.

Amyers, I believe you on that kentucky house. Probably the best bowling i have done in my life league wise was in a 12 lane house in kentucky i bowled league in during mid to late 80's. I had a composite for those years of 212 and had to play 3-4 arrow with either a polished udot or yellow dot. I wish i threw it that well now.

May have been the worst lane conditions I have ever seen. Sad thing was the place looked really nice everything was finished in a dark wood it was clean had a nice bar and a full service restraunt.

[fortheloveofbowling]

What city was it in?

[Amyers]

What city was it in?

Ashland

[rv driver]

Ashland
Ha! My cousins lived in Ashland back in the '60s.

[mc_runner]

Aslan all of this has more to do with knowing your conditions than bowling style.

THIS! Adapting to whatever you are throwing is key. Whether it be moving your mark, changing balls, flattening your wrist to get more carry, whatever... one style will always work better for a certain condition than another style. Adjusting is KEY. I'm not saying I'm great at it - look at my score thread from tonight, first game was a disaster and it took a full 10+ frames to figure out the lanes. That's what separates great (or even good) bowlers from a lot of us.

[Hammer]

Are we still talking about arc balls or hockey stick movement type balls? If we are from the stuff I read about a balls movement towards the
pocket an arcing movement is easier to controll on most lane conditions especiually on conditions other then the THS patterns. Once you get into the sport patterns and upwards an arcing ball would seem to be able to handle those conditions better. An arcing ball would be able to be fine tuned easier. I don't know if I am right on this or not but it seems that the pros mostly have arcing shots. Does anyone here know of a pro with a hockey stick type movement ball? The bowling balls that I have used have always been the arcing type balls. The hockey stick type movement would have to have a consistent breakpoint area to have a good outcome whereas an arcing ball would have more miss area at the breakpoint. What do you folks think, agree or not?

[fortheloveofbowling]

You are correct hammer. The tougher the condition normally you will see guys trying to achieve that smooth motion like on the us open pattern. On any pattern though when those guys think they can create area they will try to open up those angles to create better carry. The difference between them and most of us is that it's something they can see alot quicker.

[rv driver]

I agree. I don't hear the pros talking much about "a great skid/flip motion out of the ball." I hear them talking about consistency and control. The skid/flip hockey stick looks hot. In the eighties, everybody tried to dress like Madonna or Michael Jackson. And every bowler tried to emulate Mark Roth (who had the hard break into the pocket). It looked cool and seemed to work well. It made a god out of someone who sorta looked like a hound dog on Xanax.

Problem is, we no longer mostly bowl on older wooden lanes, with old-school oil, with first-gen polyester balls, against people who are crazy-accurate, genius strokers using rubber. And, most importantly, we're not Mark Roth, who was accurate and very, very consistent.

I said earlier that adaptability is key for the great players, and it seems to me that a smooth-arcing ball lends itself really well to adaptability, accuracy and consistency.

[Hampe]

Why not both? You are allowed to use more than one ball :)

Just like different coverstocks....different ball motions/shapes will work better on different patterns.

[rv driver]

Why not both? You are allowed to use more than one ball :)

Just like different coverstocks....different ball motions/shapes will work better on different patterns.
Well, that's certainly true. It depends a lot on the pattern and the breakdown.

[MICHAEL]

Why not both? You are allowed to use more than one ball :)

Just like different coverstocks....different ball motions/shapes will work better on different patterns.


Well, that's certainly true. It depends a lot on the pattern and the breakdown.

That's why I have that beautiful Storm 6 ball bag..... a ball for all seasons!! ( Sounds like a movie I might have seen LOL)

That 6 ball bags really does allow you to have a wide diversity of balls, for most oil patterns and conditions!

[rv driver]

I think my point still stands with regard to consistency/adaptability and arcing rather than flipping.


Or am I mistaken?