fingertip inserts: oval versus lifts

[foreverincamo]

Most fingertip bowlers have inserts. Just wondering how many people here prefer the standard oval grips over the lift grips with the flat on the bottom. I have the lifts in my DV8 Marauder Mutiny, but I am seriously considering flipping them over and trying the oval side. Reason being my fingers fluctuate in size so much that I would be able to shim the ovals more uniformly and tighten them up. What do you all prefer?

[Blacksox1]

Ovals, all day long. Middle finger @45 degrees, ring finger normal.

[striker12]

I use to use power lift grips but my middle finger started to hurt so then I wanted to try ovals it took some time to get use to but over time I was able to control my bowling ball better and still have the same amount of revs, I know this because I did a test 1 ball with oval other with power lifts, 1 thing I did notice change when I went to ovals I was able to slow my speed down a lot easyer then I could with lifts.

so then I went and did another test bigger power lifts just to tape to close then up to fit properly because when i looked at the bigger sizes they look almost like ovals but you can see the lift area so i tried these out and i increases my revs with still having control on my bowling ball now just have to do this to all my bowling balls.

[Zothen]

I use the half moon or power lifts! I find it gives me more lift then the ovals!

Zothen

[RobLV1]

One of the biggest changes brought on by the introduction of modern reactive resin bowling balls is that you don't need lift to get them to hook. Between the powerful covers and the dynamic cores, these balls hook all by themselves. Lift just gives you a more inconsistent reaction. I'd really like to see the lift side of the inserts eliminated altogether, just so bowlers aren't even tempted to use that side.

[MICHAEL]

One of the biggest changes brought on by the introduction of modern reactive resin bowling balls is that you don't need lift to get them to hook. Between the powerful covers and the dynamic cores, these balls hook all by themselves. Lift just gives you a more inconsistent reaction. I'd really like to see the lift side of the inserts eliminated altogether, just so bowlers aren't even tempted to use that side.

OUCH!!! I had a choice of lifts or oval on the Deadly Aim you gave me... went with the Lifts! Not really sure I see the difference between the oval and the lifts??

The lifts seem to have a more comfortable feel to ICE!?

side note: ( the Deadly-Aim that I purchased does have the oval finger inserts) hummmmm! Its the one that has been giving me great scores consistently.

But is it the finger inserts, or the drilling, and maybe even the size and placement of your balance hole compared to my original Deadly-Aim? Many variables !

[vdubtx]

One of the biggest changes brought on by the introduction of modern reactive resin bowling balls is that you don't need lift to get them to hook. Between the powerful covers and the dynamic cores, these balls hook all by themselves. Lift just gives you a more inconsistent reaction. I'd really like to see the lift side of the inserts eliminated altogether, just so bowlers aren't even tempted to use that side.

Yep, totally agree. I have switched to only oval inserts in the last 18 months and it helps drastically.

[MICHAEL]

Yep, totally agree. I have switched to only oval inserts in the last 18 months and it helps drastically.

HUMMMM thanks for the info! It's nice to know a real persons experience in regards to inserts. I might have to switch the finger inserts on the ball that ( BOWLING GOD ROB), gave me to ovals.

I never would have thought that round vs flat would make such a difference... but I do bowl much higher games with my original Deadly Aim vs my latest addition with flat inserts.

hummmmm food for thought!

[Amyers]

I have never tried Oval's might have to give it a shot. I knew there were different brands I wasn't really even aware that there were different shapes.

[bowl1820]

OUCH!!! I had a choice of lifts or oval on the Deadly Aim you gave me... went with the Lifts! Not really sure I see the difference between the oval and the lifts??
!

The difference between ovals and lifts is that they add a 1/4" of forward pitch to the hole and will slightly stretch your span (unless your span has been adjusted to compensate for it.)

Given if you already have forward or reverse pitch in the holes to begin with, using them will alter that.

Example if you have a 1/4" forward pitch drilled into the holes, then use lifts you effectively now would have 1/2" of forward pitch.

INFO:
Vise Power Lifts = 1/4"
Turbo Power Ovals=3/16" (Turbo states 1/4")
Turbo Quads.........1/8"


I used Vise power lifts for years back when I started (Urethane days), then I just had the forward pitch added to the holes and went to straight ovals. The lifts wore out a lot faster.

But as time passed I got rid of the forward pitch and worked on just getting the fit right.

[bowl1820]

I have never tried Oval's might have to give it a shot. I knew there were different brands I wasn't really even aware that there were different shapes.

Well you need to check these sites:

Vise:
http://www.viseinserts.com/finger.html
You got Ovals, Powerlifts, Powerlift Ovals, Semi, Oval with nubs, Silicone (I tried those once they all most peeled my fingerprints off)

Turbogrips:
http://www.turbogrips.com/products_finger_styles.php
Which has comparable styles plus few others.

[Amyers]

Thanks Bowl learn something new everyday.

[Aslan]

One of the biggest changes brought on by the introduction of modern reactive resin bowling balls is that you don't need lift to get them to hook. Between the powerful covers and the dynamic cores, these balls hook all by themselves. Lift just gives you a more inconsistent reaction. I'd really like to see the lift side of the inserts eliminated altogether, just so bowlers aren't even tempted to use that side.

But, lets say thats true...and it is. Just because the balls hook more on their own...doesn't mean "making" them hook more or rev up more is automatically a bad thing. Belmo puts a TON of revs on a ball with his 2-handed style. Should he stop throwing 2-handed because the ball "will hook on it's own"? I've seen urethane balls with hardly any revs hook the entire width of the lane....when thrown at 4-6mph. Hasn't the new technology just allowed players who weren't good at "adding revs/hitting up/etc..." suddenly be able to hook the ball regardless? Aren't additional revs still sought after (2-handers, thumbless, etc..)? Aren't additional revs gotten from coming up the side or from lift inserts still potentially beneficial?

I just don't understand how the balls naturally hooking more automatically = no need for lifts. It seems to me that the only time you could categorically say that lifts are unnecessary is if the person already has SO many revs...like 650....that the lifts don't increase the revs or the amount of hook is detrimental.


ThThe lifts wore out a lot faster.

Thats true. My lift inserts seemed to wear out in the Frantic. Now they feel more like ovals.

[RobLV1]

As usual, Aslan, your logic is half right. Lifts do increase the revs on the bowling ball. Lift, unfortunately, produces a much less consistent ball reaction. Look at two of the greats who just started on the PBA50 Tour, Pete Weber and Norm Duke. When reactive resin balls were first introduced, Weber was lost until he learned to stop lifting. Today, when he throws a perfect shot, his fingers are fully extended in his follow through, not hooked as they are when the ball is lifted. Norm Duke actually does not bevel the holes in his bowling balls. He is so adamant about not lifting that he leaves the holes with sharp edges. If he lifts, he bleeds.

Are you really serious about this stuff, or do you just love to argue?

P.S. - Revs don't make the ball hook. Axis rotation makes the ball hook.

[bowl1820]

Here's a good quote IMO


Put it this way - hitting up, or lifting the ball, requires good timing to get it right every time! You have to time the thumb release, then the lift to follow it.

If you just let the ball come off your hand, you remove most of the timing for the thumb release, assuming your fit is good. Ask anyone with a good fit and they will tell you the ball lets go of them, rather than them letting go of the ball. If you remove the lift timing as well, you will have a release that is much easier to repeat, requires less effort and produces a higher rev rate. A trifecta of release goodness!

The following clip of Wes Malott shows the ball slide of his thumb and his fingers travel upward by a natural extension of his swing, rather than a deliberate movement of his hand.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3XMOkX5l2Y

It should be noted that don't need the wrist and elbow action seen in the videos, unless you're chasing a 450+ type rev rate. Even then, you should be able to do it without extreme wrist cup and elbow snap.

[bowl1820]

Norm Duke actually does not bevel the holes in his bowling balls. He is so adamant about not lifting that he leaves the holes with sharp edges. If he lifts, he bleeds.
.

Drew who runs the pro shop here, does that too. The edges of his finger holes are like razors. he's averaging 258 on my tuesday league right now, so it must be working for him.

[foreverincamo]

Thanks everyone for your input, experiences and knowledge. I have always used lifts in my urethane balls, so when I bought this Marauder Mutiny I automatically put lifts in it. I have had good success with that setup but I am inconsistent with my release at times. All I need to have done is flip the inserts and try it.
Yes, I threw 300 with this setup I have, but I have more off nights than on so I am going to keep experimenting until I get more consistent

[Sourtower]

Norm Duke actually does not bevel the holes in his bowling balls. He is so adamant about not lifting that he leaves the holes with sharp edges. If he lifts, he bleeds

Wow, that's some hardcore stuff right there. Gives me ideas to try out...

[Aslan]

As usual, Aslan, your logic is half right.
I'll take 50%.


Look at two of the greats who just started on the PBA50 Tour, Pete Weber and Norm Duke. When reactive resin balls were first introduced, Weber was lost until he learned to stop lifting. Today, when he throws a perfect shot, his fingers are fully extended in his follow through, not hooked as they are when the ball is lifted.

I've noticed his arm releases off to the side rather than snapping straight up. Is that kinda what you're talking about?


Norm Duke actually does not bevel the holes in his bowling balls. He is so adamant about not lifting that he leaves the holes with sharp edges. If he lifts, he bleeds.
But, as we learned in the spare ball debate...you don't do something just because Norm Duke can do it. ; P


Are you really serious about this stuff, or do you just love to argue?
See...THAT is the Rob I used to argue with (before he made the smart decision to coach me to greatness and thus ride my eventual gravy train)!! Your assumption is that if a person disagrees with you or even questions the substance behind your post....they must "just like to argue". Not, "Hmm. How can I explain this differently?" Not, "Hmm...from that standpoint, he's sort of right. Let me think about this." Not even a "well, he doesn't quite grasp the concept and it might be above his level of understanding." But instead..."he must just love to argue". And you're NOT the only guilty party...in my early days on bowl.com...my passion was often confused for disruption or wanting to "start trouble". And thus it's a pet peeve of mine...the concept that if someone doesn't agree or doesn't understand....they simply "must want to argue." It's a very omnipotent way of discussing things. It assumes that not only is the other person wrong (given)...but the other person actually isn't "wrong"...they just are intentionally disagreeing to cause trouble....because they couldn't POSSIBLY disagree or even not understand. In essence...every sentiment that is in any way questioning or of a different perspective...especially if made in a more passionate way...is out of malicious intent.

Wait. What were talking about??


P.S. - Revs don't make the ball hook. Axis rotation makes the ball hook.
Actually, a circular object spinning when making contact with a drier surface will result in friction/traction causing said object to change direction. So the laws of Physics dictate that regardless of ball core, ball surface, or the exact axis of the rotation; the ball will "hook" (in a direction that it is rotating) based on it's rev rate. It would make more sense to you if you lived in a colder climate and have to drive on icy roads and need snow tires, etc... ; P

I guess where I'm still "missing something" is...nevermind. I "get" the concept. I guess I can't see how a person gets a 450rpm shot at 21mph and have it hook gutter to gutter without doing SOMETHING else. But I think I'll just not think about that right now. I mean, if you watch WRW...there's a weird waist torque/arm snap "thing". Parker Bohn and Wes Mallott and Mike Fagan...much more natural pendulum/behind the ball kinda action. Then there's a guy like Tommy Jones where it looks like a Wes Mallott shot and then at the very end he's doing some kind of elbow snap that seems to be "revving the ball up". It just SEEMS...again, I may be wrong...just watching it that some of the pros ARE revving the ball up. It's interesting.

[mike_thomas93]

My pro shop told me something about lifts can hurt your fingers. I've never used lifts, just ovals. I guess its whichever you're more comfortable with.

[foreverincamo]

I've never injured my fingers using lifts. They do seem to work best when you're coming straight up the back of the ball .

[Amyers]

I've always used lifts and never had any finger issues either