I'm never helping old people ever again!!

[Aslan]

I bowl on Wednesdays with this great older guy, vietnam vet, must be close to if not past 70. Typical older guy release with very little leg speed, very little knee bend, and a ball speed that ranges from 6.5-11.5mph.

What I love about this guy is…he's DEDICATED to bowling…I mean he LOVES to bowl. He bowls in like 8-9 different leagues…he has about 16 bowling balls in his car and brings at least 8 every night. He just loves the sport…and I respect that.

The PROBLEM is…he has no idea what he's doing. He switches balls like he's at an appetizer buffet…he has horrible equipment in terms of matching to his style. But MOST OF ALL….he WILL NOT LISTEN…to ANYTHING or ANYONE EVER!!! :mad:

Today's attempt at coaching:
Me: "Okay, you went brooklyn, what move are you going to make?"
Him: "Well, I switched balls…and that didn't work…so I moved right."

Me: "Why would you move right?"
Him: "Cuz that way I got more area to get to the pocket."

Me: "How bout try this….next shot, throw the same ball as you missed Brooklyn with…but make a 3 board move LEFT with your feet and a…"
Him: (interrupting) "No, no, no….that won't work….then my ball skids through the middle…"
Me: "Yeah…its supposed to….thats what we WANT it to do."

So, to make a long story short…even after drawing him a picture…and explaining to him what a THS oil pattern looks like…and even touching on more advanced concepts like the fact that when he DOES miss right…it's because he's SO FAR RIGHT…that his ball enters the roll phase at about the 40ft mark…he STILL wouldn't listen. He just switched balls. He said he was trying different "hand positions" to fix the issue.

:mad: :confused:

Ughhh….I was reluctant to help him…because old people (no offense) tend to not like to learn "new tricks"…and this guy is more in that mindset than most of his peers…but for crying out loud….it's annoying as hell(o) to hear him complain endlessly that the lanes are too dry and he has to bowl with his plastic ball…yet there is a SIMPLE SOLUTION…that with just a smidge of understanding of bowling (because I only have a "smidge" to offer)…he could fix it.

This is why I can't be a coach.

Me: "Try doing this."
Me: "No, that wasn't at all what I said to do…you want to do THIS."
Me: "Again….totally NOT what I said to do….how bout you do it this way…?"
Me: "For ****S SAKE! Am I talking to myself? Are you a ghost? Do you speak English!? Are you from the planet Earth? Do you suffer from low blood sugar? I mean, WHAT is the reason that when I say do X….you interpret that to mean do Y? Are you ****ing with me!!?"

rant over

[Amyers]

Been there done that. You can take the horse to the river but you can't make him drink. Beating the horse with a stick is always an option but then you have to walk back. Sometimes I think it might me worth it.

[HowDoIHookAgain]

Sounds so much like a kid that I bowl with on the school team and a winter league. This kid must get a new ball every 2 weeks. He's a pro shop's dream, because he's dumping at least $150 into a new ball every two weeks. Two kids on the team last year tried to help him with one of his major problems; when he releases the ball, he rotates himself 90 degrees so his foot points to his right, throws his arm all the way out to his right, and hopes that he gets a strike. Or, in some cases, he hopes it lands on his lane (there have been a few times where the ball has landed on another set of lanes). And then he has the audacity to blame it on his ball, hence why he gets a new ball every 2 weeks.

Back to the story, the kids must have spent the whole practice (about 2 hours) trying to fix his problems, but mostly his turning issue. It became pretty apparent he wasn't going to listen anytime soon, so after the practice, they never really gave him advice again, only when he was doing something SERIOUSLY wrong. Even our coach was like "he's hopeless" after a while.

So Aslan, you are not alone with this problem. Stubborn bowlers will remain stubborn as long as they bowl. I suppose the old saying holds true; you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

[John Anderson]

This is the perfect reason as to why some people are not coaches and some people shouldn't waste their money going to coaches. If you cannot take criticism and advice from others, you cannot improve your own skills.

In order to improve, you have to actually be coach-able. Some people are. Some people are not.

[RobLV1]

Aslan: There are a few lessons here for you. First, unless someone pays you to give them a lesson, don't bother because they are not going to listen to unsolicitated advice. Second, because you spend a lot of time here and think about bowling a lot does not make you a coach. Personally, I think you would make a pretty good one, but you need some training like everyone else who wants to coach. Finally, as one of those "old people" that you refer to, I can tell you from a whole lot of experience that I see just as much of the "new tricks" mentality in young people as I do from the old farts of which I am one.

[Amyers]

Aslan: There are a few lessons here for you. First, unless someone pays you to give them a lesson, don't bother because they are not going to listen to unsolicitated advice. Second, because you spend a lot of time here and think about bowling a lot does not make you a coach. Personally, I think you would make a pretty good one, but you need some training like everyone else who wants to coach. Finally, as one of those "old people" that you refer to, I can tell you from a whole lot of experience that I see just as much of the "new tricks" mentality in young people as I do from the old farts of which I am one.

I will agree it's not just he aged that have this issue I see it from all age groups and myself included at times. If I had a nickel for everytime someone told me I had ___ issue and I though no I don't only later to discover oh yeah I'd be rich.

I will disagree on one point it doesn't take a certified coach to help someone understand that having 5 heavy oil balls may not be the best choice, where to generally play on the lane adjustment wise, or that switching balls on every other shot is counterproductive.

As far as Aslan's frustration with him it depends on weather his advice was solicited or unsolicited. If the guy asked for help and refuses to listen then yes I might be frustrated too. If he didn't then Aslan has no reason to be frustrated at that point it's only his opinion and we all know what opinions are like.

[mc_runner]

I genuinely try not to give unsolicited advice even if its super obvious... because if someone wants help they'll ask. If its a total beginner who's looking for pointers or is really into it (and wants to know more) it's not bad to give a few basic pointers. It IS hard not to say something sometimes though.

[ALazySavage]

Aslan, some people will simply just not listen to advice, it happens but it could be worse. One of the bowlers on our team will come to us asking for advice on lane play or physical adjustments (don't worry Rob, we have a certified coach on the team), we provide our opinion on what is occurring and then the person gets mad at the advice that we are providing.

[djp1080]

I can relate to your comments Aslan and the guy who has plenty of equipment to choose from. I've bought my share of gear myself and I've learned a lot as a result.
Just a couple of days ago I tried one of the techniques Rob has been preaching for quite sometime now. I decided that I wanted to roll my ball over board 14 or 15 to get to the pocket. I thought that maybe I should use the 2-1 move to get there, but then again I thought that would be too much. I thought that a 1-1 move might be better. So I just decided that I should have the center of my slide foot end up on board 28. My ball was rolling over board 14 at the arrows and had my line on shot #1! Not bad for an old guy. Thanks Rob! Later I tried targeting board 14 instead of the range finders and I ended up having to move out to board 13 instead. Still happy with the results.
I was using an IQ Tour Nano and I've found that it's an oil sponge. I'll likely have to get the oil out of it every four or five weeks to keep it working well.
I'm a retired Navy Chief and served during Viet Nam era, but luckily didn't have to serve there even though I volunteered for it. I guess I'm a little more open minded than the fellow you were bowling with... :) Good luck with that!

[manke]

Aslan did the guy ask for your help? If he didn't maybe thats why he didn't follow your instructions.

[Mike White]

Aslan, some people will simply just not listen to advice, it happens but it could be worse. One of the bowlers on our team will come to us asking for advice on lane play or physical adjustments (don't worry Rob, we have a certified coach on the team), we provide our opinion on what is occurring and then the person gets mad at the advice that we are providing.

I had a guy come into the shop who wanted to know what new ball would help his game.

This guy has a release so bad that he makes Aslan look great.

Rather than suggesting a ball, I told him about the Saturday Morning Seminars down at Fountain Bowl put on by Barry Asher and Mark Baker when available.

I said that fixing how he threw the ball would improve EVERY ball he has now, and buys in the future, and that I wasn't qualified to help him fix those problems.

He took that as an insult, that he doesn't throw the ball well enough for my help.

Some people are beyond help.

[bubba809]

Was his name Iceman?

[Tony]

The league I bowl in has several guys that are coaches for the local high schools and the general rule they seem to go by is to only offer help to bowlers that ask them for it or have expressed that they value their input.
I have seen people ask for help and then tell them they are wrong or don't know what they are talking about .......those people are the ones who can never take advice because they already know everything !

[Aslan]

Aslan did the guy ask for your help? If he didn't maybe thats why he didn't follow your instructions.

No...he did not...and he never will. I could go out and throw back to back 900 series and get a professional bowling sponsorship and gold level certification...and this guy will NOT listen to me.

And you're right...my rule is I only offer advice if asked....but in THIS case...after EVERY STINKING SHOT I had to listen to him moan and whine that he can't play on these lanes because they're too dry and he's out of options (ball choices) and wah wah wah.... I practically was giving him advice just to get him to stop whining about it.

We have a true beginner on our team...and I've given her just a couple pointers over the course of the season...but she also doesn't seem that interested in learning to bowl properly...so I don't even bother. BUT...the difference is...she doesn't complain endlessly after each bad shot...at least not to me.

[RobLV1]

Simple solution: If all he does is whine, don't bowl with him again!

[Jessiewoodard57]

I have to laugh on this one. I am an old guy 57 and one of my team mates is 25. He has a bad habit of taking out the 7 pin on the first ball. He clearly comes across his body on his swing aiming straight at the 7 pin and wonders why the ball misses his mark. Sometimes you just gotta shake your head and smile. He is getting better we got him to go to a finger tip grip and a reactive ball so I think there is hope yet for him.

[NYMIKE]

Basically the incident you described can be verbatim applied to my story, my teammate is 66, all kinds of surgeries throws ball 9.5 to 11 range, I noticed that 2 consecutive shots he hit the second arrow yet the ball went way pass the headpin, I told him to move left, he goes "just cause you worked with a coach for 10 minutes, doesnt mean you know everything" dude was clearly pissed at me when I was trying to help. I believe that this week I pass him in average.

[Aslan]

Basically the incident you described can be verbatim applied to my story, my teammate is 66, all kinds of surgeries throws ball 9.5 to 11 range, I noticed that 2 consecutive shots he hit the second arrow yet the ball went way pass the headpin, I told him to move left, he goes "just cause you worked with a coach for 10 minutes, doesnt mean you know everything" dude was clearly pissed at me when I was trying to help. I believe that this week I pass him in average.

Yeah. Again...I try not to offer help unless I'm asked. Whether it's a youth, a female, or anyone.

But this guy spends the entire night whining that he has 16 bowling balls and has to use his plastic ball because "the lanes are too dry". No...the lanes are an easy version of a THS...there's a butt ton of oil in the middle...and it's 90% ball speed that is causing every ball in your arsenal to hook left of the headpin....AND...there ARE solutions to help fix the problem...but you REFUSE to do anything other than complain and try crazy things. I mean, he tried bowling thumbless once....which had the opposite effect if anything than what he was going for.

And the reason it bothers me isn't that I want to be a coach or anything. I really don't care. It's just that I really like this guy and I love his passion for the game...it's similar to mine or Iceman's (before he joined a cult and moved to a desert camp to prepare for the end of the World). The difference is...I take in everyone's opinions and suggestions. I'm FAR more coachable than people give me credit for. Iceman...not as much. And the guy on my Wednesday team...way, way worse!!

[Jessiewoodard57]

I figured it out Aslan, if this guy would stop carrying 16 balls into the bowling center he would not be worn out and might bowl better LOL

[Tony]

I'm pretty sure I have not even owned 16 balls over all the years I've bowled and there is certainly no way I would try to haul anywhere near that many balls anywhere, I think the max I would bring is 3 or 4.

[Aslan]

I'd never bring more than 7. 6-ball roller and a Joey is about as many as I'd consider on a league night.

If it's an important tournament or you're trying to bowl for a living...then maybe double that to 14...but yeah...15 or higher is absurd. At some point you have to abandon faith in the equipment and garner up some faith in your game/skill.

Usually, he shows up with a 6-ball roller with a Joey for one of his spare balls. And then he has another 3-ball roller as well. So most every night it's 9 balls. Every other week...he has a new ball or gets one of his balls re-drilled. I think he bowls in like 5-9 leagues in all different centers around the area. In addition to the 9 balls he usually brings, he has at least 2 additional 3-ball rollers and I think 1-2 loose balls in his car. So that = 15-17. He's been known to switch balls each frame until he finds what he likes...but as soon as he doesn't strike a couple times...he'll grab another one. I'd say on average he uses 6 different balls per night.

He's the epitomy of the "arsenal bowler" that I used to speak badly of when I was a new bowler. I now have come around and realized the need for a reasonable (4-6 ball) arsenal...but guys like this give arsenal bowlers a bad name because there is no method to his madness...he's just reaching into that grab bag figuring eventually he'll pull out a gem.

[dnhoffman]

"Oh thank God!"

-Old People Everywhere

[John Anderson]

I'm pretty sure I have not even owned 16 balls over all the years I've bowled and there is certainly no way I would try to haul anywhere near that many balls anywhere, I think the max I would bring is 3 or 4.

This. Spare ball. Light oil. Medium Oil. Heavy Oil. That's it. The rest can be accomplished easily with technique.

[Tony]

This. Spare ball. Light oil. Medium Oil. Heavy Oil. That's it. The rest can be accomplished easily with technique.

I have a med-heavy oil ball, med-dry oil ball and a spare ball. For the most part I can play just the med-heavy ball and spare ball all night unless they don't oil or put down way lighter oil than usual, they do one or the other 5 to 10 times a season it seems.

[Aslan]

"Oh thank God!"

-Old People Everywhere

They're getting desperate if they elected dhoff as the spokesperson for old people.

[NewToBowling]

What is your cutoff for old. I'm inching towards 40. I feel old

[Aslan]

What is your cutoff for old. I'm inching towards 40. I feel old

I'd say....to keep from Rob adding a "your definition of old" tax to my upcoming lesson...I'm gonna say 'old' is 69 or higher. It's hard to say because curmudgeonry is not entirely age dependent. But lets just say 69.

[taxexpert2]

Hmm. Interesting. I bowled in a "Senior" league for the first time this year. When we asked the house about the oil conditions they said - oh, we only use about half the oil for the seniors. THEY DON'T HAVE SOPHISICATED BOWLING BALLS". I thought that was interesting and will not bowl there for the summer league again - my balls are new and up-to-date equipment. I asked my son if he could find his old Rhino ball so I could have it redrilled for me. The conditions were perfect.

[Mike White]

Hmm. Interesting. I bowled in a "Senior" league for the first time this year. When we asked the house about the oil conditions they said - oh, we only use about half the oil for the seniors. THEY DON'T HAVE SOPHISICATED BOWLING BALLS". I thought that was interesting and will not bowl there for the summer league again - my balls are new and up-to-date equipment. I asked my son if he could find his old Rhino ball so I could have it redrilled for me. The conditions were perfect.

Have you ever watch a bunch of seniors playing Bingo.

1/2 the crowd is yelling to call the numbers slower.

The other 1/2 wants the numbers called faster.

And almost all of them want the numbers called louder.

If it's true that most of the seniors don't have "sophisticated" bowling balls, you feel the center should cater to your needs with the equipment you purchased?