Bowling towel etiquette

[NewToBowling]

I'm sure there is no rule on it but what is your bowling towel etiquette.

I'm in my second league and it's pretty casual laid back even though the one I'm in now is a sanctioned league.

The summer league some people just left their towels either on the scoring/control board or on the return rack. Others brought up their towels on their turns and brought it back with them when their turn was over.

I prefer to find one place near the approach and not have to keep it on me the whole night. Some times this will mean on the scoring table swivel chair or the scoring/control board.

[vdubtx]

I always leave mine on scoring control panel as do others that use one. My Tuesday house has a ledge/shelf just past the panels that every one uses. The shelf also has 3 rows under it where spare/extra balls can go.

[mc_runner]

I just leave mine on the top of the scoring monitor, or on the back of the chair in front of the scoring monitor. Seems like most people do that. The only ones that bother me even a tiny bit are people who are up and put their towel on balls on the return... and even that's just a minor inconvenience in case my ball is around/under that (but, I can see why people could get more touchy about that one)

[HowDoIHookAgain]

I use a sling because it's easier to clean off my balls that way. I normally tend to leave it in my bag, though. I have a bad tendency of losing minor objects such as a bowling towel/sling.

[Tony]

The house I bowl at just last week put little round tables on every lane between the end of the return and the scoring panel, seems they were having panels damaged by stuff being left on the scoring panels. Not sure what was the issue, rosin bags, towels, or ?
Now everyone is using the little tables, too bad they don't have a rack under for extra balls ...

Lets just hope people don't start setting drinks and food on the little table !

[NewToBowling]

The house I bowl at just last week put little round tables on every lane between the end of the return and the scoring panel, seems they were having panels damaged by stuff being left on the scoring panels. Not sure what was the issue, rosin bags, towels, or ?
Now everyone is using the little tables, too bad they don't have a rack under for extra balls ...

Lets just hope people don't start setting drinks and food on the little table !

That's the fear. At my alley there is nothing horizontal near the bowling approach. Nothing someone could place a drink on. Which I think is a great design.

[Tony]

That's the fear. At my alley there is nothing horizontal near the bowling approach. Nothing someone could place a drink on. Which I think is a great design.


Yes, at league we were joking about it, but with some recreational bowlers that don't know any better it could become a real issue! That's all we need is drinks and food spilled all over the approaches.

[Jessiewoodard57]

Since I am handicapped and bowl from a wheelchair I use to keep mine on my left shoulder until it cost me a strike. I had just released my ball when my towel fell off my shoulder and on to the foul line and of course it was a strike. I remove the strike and took it as zero pins rather than call rerack. That was a unsanctioned league and the ladies I was bowling against had told me you could have left the strike. I thanked them but said I planed on moving up to a sanctioned league so I might as well get use to the rules. Now I leave mine on top the ball return exit. no one seems to mind yet.

[fordman1]

When I find a towel on my ball in the rack I usually just drop it on the floor. I have also been known to hide them, put them in one of their team mates bag. If you can't have a little fun stay home. By the way I have never been able to keep a towel for more than two weeks. Always leave them behind.

[bowl1820]

Since I am handicapped and bowl from a wheelchair I use to keep mine on my left shoulder until it cost me a strike. I had just released my ball when my towel fell off my shoulder and on to the foul line and of course it was a strike. I remove the strike and took it as zero pins rather than call rerack. That was a unsanctioned league and the ladies I was bowling against had told me you could have left the strike. I thanked them but said I planed on moving up to a sanctioned league so I might as well get use to the rules. Now I leave mine on top the ball return exit. no one seems to mind yet.

In a USBC sanctioned league, your towel falling on the foul line wouldn't have been a foul.

Rule 5 – Fouls

NOTE: The foul line is of infinite length including walls, floors, posts and ball returns. A foul is not
committed when foreign objects such as pens, jewelry, coins, cigarettes, etc., drop from a
bowler’s pocket or fall from a person’s body or clothing. (Footwear and clothing are considered
part of the body.) A player should request permission to cross the foul line to retrieve any items
that have fallen beyond the foul line.

[Jessiewoodard57]

In a USBC sanctioned league, your towel falling on the foul line wouldn't have been a foul.

Rule 5 – Fouls

NOTE: The foul line is of infinite length including walls, floors, posts and ball returns. A foul is not
committed when foreign objects such as pens, jewelry, coins, cigarettes, etc., drop from a
bowler’s pocket or fall from a person’s body or clothing. (Footwear and clothing are considered
part of the body.) A player should request permission to cross the foul line to retrieve any items
that have fallen beyond the foul line.

Thank you I did not know that guess I have better get and read the rule book.

[Jessiewoodard57]

I work in a print shop think I'll just download the rule book and print it

[Aslan]

I've bowled with a person, not gonna who she was, but she didn't like when people left dirty towels around...like on the scoring machine or whatever. I don't think it's a big deal...but yeah, some of em are pretty nasty and could use a wash.

I know in one league they got pissy about powder... a lot of people 'plant' rather than slide...and if you get powder on the approach...it causes them to slip. So the one guy just happened to be the league president and the next year we had the rule that the powder and rosin wasn't allowed in the approach area...had to keep it back at the tables.

My only issue...and it's a teammate of mine that is the most guilty culprit...is when people leave their rosin bags on the fan. I try to go up and put my hand over the fan...and I gotta keep moving his damn rosin bag off of it.

As I'm sure RobM would agree...the list of things bowlers get annoyed with...it's endless. And the older they are...the more things annoy them. One of my past teammates...elderly lady...her elderly husband went OFF one night before bowling because he got a table and the other team moved his stuff because they wanted the table. I've seen more fights about tables than anything else I can think of. Some lanes had two tables...some only had one. So...like children and their toys...2 kids and 1 toy equals drama.

[Blomer]

Leave mine on the scoring minor as well. Grab it when my turn is over. Most do it in my league. I've seen other have it hanging from back pocket. Bugs me..oh well.

[billf]

I leave mine on the crossbar between the two scoring monitors.

However, if somebody happended to put mine on the floor, hide it, etc. for no apparent explainable reason would no longer be having fun. Screwing with other people's stuff isn't having fun, it's plain disrespectful. So a lesson in respecting other people's property would be sure to follow.

[TonyInPortland]

One of my towels is black, and I forgot it on the ball return. Someone else had a black towel, and they ended up with mine and I ended up with theirs. It has happened a couple times, but I figured it out before the night was over.

[Tony]

The little tables have been working well during league, not sure where all the towels, rosin bags, and other stuff was before but the little tables have collected it all together .

One buddy of mine a big towel used religiously washed his towel at the end of every season ....

[mc_runner]

I know in one league they got pissy about powder... a lot of people 'plant' rather than slide...and if you get powder on the approach...it causes them to slip. So the one guy just happened to be the league president and the next year we had the rule that the powder and rosin wasn't allowed in the approach area...had to keep it back at the tables.


This is a legitimate safety concern. You get someone using slide-right or baby powder or whatever on their shoe, the next person who comes up will faceplant into the lane or tear an ACL (esp. if they plant normally)

[Tony]

This is a legitimate safety concern. You get someone using slide-right or baby powder or whatever on their shoe, the next person who comes up will faceplant into the lane or tear an ACL (esp. if they plant normally)


I had not bowled with many people that planted but having subbed in a morning league where some of the guys are senior bowlers, I have seen quite a few more guys using that delivery.
The one day we had heavy rain and high temps the humidity didn't bother them but I nearly killed myself ... got a sliding pad to keep in my bag in case that happens again.

[Aslan]

This is a legitimate safety concern. You get someone using slide-right or baby powder or whatever on their shoe, the next person who comes up will faceplant into the lane or tear an ACL (esp. if they plant normally)


The one day we had heavy rain and high temps the humidity didn't bother them but I nearly killed myself ... got a sliding pad to keep in my bag in case that happens again.

It's certainly a safety concern (and technically against the rules) to use the easy-slide on your shoes. I primarily (99.88% of the time) use it if my thumb starts to get a little tight; but not tight enough where it would make sense to switch inserts.

However, I have seen MANY league bowlers (and I have on a few occasions) use it on their shoe. When I've done it...it's usually an issue where the approaches are sticky, have not been maintained properly, or as was mentioned above...the humidity was making the lanes overly sticky. I use a very tiny amount and brush it off before actually going on the lanes...but yes, it can make the approach more slippery for the players behind me in theory.

But when I used to a "planter"...that was just something you had to deal with. Some lanes were more slippery...some lanes maybe had a little powder on them. If it ever got too slippery I'd just have the center send a guy over to clean them/wipe them off.

Now that I'm transitioning to a "slider"...it's a new set of problems...and actually a more tragic result should the approaches be sticky. I mean, absolutely, a planter can slip...especially if it's sideways and they are off balance....but for the MOST part if they slide it'll just mess up their shot or worst case maybe they slide past the foul line. Thats what would happen to me (when I planted and the approaches were slippery).

But...as everyone saw in the footage from the last AAVZBHMSCI...Mike took a TERRIBLE spill in like the 2nd frame of Game 2 or 3. Mike is a guy that slides as much if not more than any bowler I've ever seen. A very explosive approach with a lot of sliding at the end. When you rely on your slide THAT much...when you STICK...it's like throwing a stick in front of a rollerblader. Because, you're not just dealing with your footing supporting your weight (planting)...you're also dealing with the momentum of the person TOWARDS the lane/pins. Most of the time you can catch yourself...but if you don't...you're going down. Learning to slide...it's like learning to ice skate all over again. Except I'm 'skating' while also trying to throw a 15b object with precision.

What I don't understand about planting...even as someone that used to do it....is what is the purpose of the approach if you're going to stop your body's momentum before delivering the ball? Seems like you could do a 1-step approach as a planter and get the same results?? I dunno. I think when I planted...there still was a tiny 'slide' in there somewhere.

I struggled with this in Vegas. The Orleans had great approaches and the Gold Coast were sticky. Not sticky like something was spilled on them...just sticky from the unseasonably high humidity at the time. I actually bought one of those sliding socks from the pro shop there...but it was SO slippery that I ended up not using it.

[Blomer]

This past week, this guy has been leaving his towel the entire night on the ball return. Bugged the crap out of me. It shouldn't be left there. I I her have mine with me while I sit or on top of the scoring table.

[Timmyb]

I always thought league rules stated you couldn't leave a towel, or anything that's not a bowling ball, on the return. Jason Belmonte and Pete Weber just about threw down over this once. My opinion is leave it behind the lanes, including towels (after you wipe off).

[bowl1820]

I always thought league rules stated you couldn't leave a towel, or anything that's not a bowling ball, on the return.

While a league or tournament could make a rule like that, it would be specific to just that league or tournament It's not a Usbc rule.

[Aslan]

This past week, this guy has been leaving his towel the entire night on the ball return. Bugged the crap out of me. It shouldn't be left there. I I her have mine with me while I sit or on top of the scoring table.

The same thing happened to me last Wednesday. The other #4 bowler on the opposing team kept putting his towel on top of the air vent. So each time I went up, I had to brush his towel and rosin bag into the ball return as I held my hand over the vent. I'm sure he was annoyed that every time he placed his stuff on the vent, he'd come back finding it sitting in the ball return...but that's what you get for leaving it there.

We saw PDW get upset at Belmo about this, this season. Belmo kept putting his towel on the ball return area, despite being told by the PBA not to do that....and Weber didn't want it touching his balls or him needing to touch it to move it. Of course, Pete made a big deal about it....because that's what Pete does...where as if it was me I'd have just pushed it onto the floor and went about my business....but I'm not the showman of a PDW.

[fokai73]

I use towel and a pad. My towel is on top of the counter damped with Remedy Rx cleaner. I used it after 3 frames to clean the ball. The pad, I use before every shot and I place it on top of my bowling bag. I don't like leaving my towel on the ball rack and on the scores tabel/control panel.

[fordman1]

If you leave your towel on my ball or the air flow vent I will gently tell you not to do it anymore and to leave it on the scorer or table behind the scorer. The second time it is on the floor under the ball return. Next time it is back in the settee. Then the last time in the mystery world of what happened to my stuff world..
It is against USBC rules to put anything on your shoes that could affect other bowlers. I have seen planters actually put water on the floor under their table to get their shoe wet so they don't slide. Sliders use easy slide (illegal) but most are very sneaky.

[fortheloveofbowling]

If you leave your towel on my ball or the air flow vent I will gently tell you not to do it anymore and to leave it on the scorer or table behind the scorer. The second time it is on the floor under the ball return. Next time it is back in the settee. Then the last time in the mystery world of what happened to my stuff world..
It is against USBC rules to put anything on your shoes that could affect other bowlers. I have seen planters actually put water on the floor under their table to get their shoe wet so they don't slide. Sliders use easy slide (illegal) but most are very sneaky.

Whoa.....tough guy eh

[Blacksox1]

The same thing happened to me last Wednesday. The other #4 bowler on the opposing team kept putting his towel on top of the air vent. So each time I went up, I had to brush his towel and rosin bag into the ball return as I held my hand over the vent. I'm sure he was annoyed that every time he placed his stuff on the vent, he'd come back finding it sitting in the ball return...but that's what you get for leaving it there.

We saw PDW get upset at Belmo about this, this season. Belmo kept putting his towel on the ball return area, despite being told by the PBA not to do that....and Weber didn't want it touching his balls or him needing to touch it to move it. Of course, Pete made a big deal about it....because that's what Pete does...where as if it was me I'd have just pushed it onto the floor and went about my business....but I'm not the showman of a PDW.

Today for me. I did what you did. By the way this did not bug me. I was more concerned about hitting my mark, etc.

[Amyers]

As long as you're not leaving it on my ball I don't care what you do with it. If it's on the air vent I'll move it but you better not gripe at me about it.

[manke]

I leave mine on the score table, right by the balls.

[Aslan]

As long as you're not leaving it on my ball I don't care what you do with it. If it's on the air vent I'll move it but you better not gripe at me about it.

I don't know. It probably bothered me more because it happened during the latest slump...but I just don't like to have to touch other people's towels or rosin bags or powder bags; even if I do it with my non-bowling hand. Score table...chairs...whatever. I can avoid those. But I need that air vent to dry my hand off and every single time...he'd have his giant cotton towel and big rosin bag sitting directly on top of the vent.

A little gripe...but it at least helped me relate a tiny bit to PDW.

[vdubtx]

Do people really get upset about this stuff? So a towel is left on the ball return, who the heck cares. Move to the side so you can dry your hand and be done with it. Does the towel have cooties if it's sitting on your ball? Is it gonna make the ball roll differently down the lane? If the balls rolls differently, guess what...It wasn't the towel sitting on it for a minute. It's you and your release and this minuscule thing getting at your nerves. As it is, we have enough to worry about with approach, hand position, things going through our minds to deliver a good shot to then add this to an already filled mind trying to concentrate.

1st World Bowling Problems.

Don't sweat the small stuff!

[Aslan]

What if it has peanut residue on it and you're deathly allergic?

vdubtx apparently just wants everyone with a peanut allergy to die of asphyxiation. Nice. Way to be supportive of the community. :p

[bowl1820]

The main reason for not leaving towels on the ball return is that they can cause the returning balls to get backed up on the return, also it can cause balls to bounce off the rack.

As for Dry bags and rosin bags, they shouldn't be placed on the score terminals themselves. Because the powder can get down into the electronics and the keypads and has been known to cause problems to them.

[taxexpert2]

Hmmm. I do not think these people are at all conscious of where they are leaving their equipment. I have taken to making certain that I leave my stuff in a place that will not bother others. But my son often uses the same towel I do to wipe off his ball and he just puts it anywhere without regard to where it happens to lie when he is done. Frustrating to me when I come up to bowl after him and I realize the towel may be in the way of someone else but that is life. There are big things and little things that make it annoying or worth living.

[Aslan]

Since I can't use chemicals on the ball between shots (USBC rules and such)....and I bowl in an AMF center that returns my ball back to me looking like a Dalmation with black spots all over it from their dirty lanes/ball return....I sometimes spit on my ball and wipe it with my towel. That also usually serves the purpose of keeping people from touching it.

[Amyers]

Since I can't use chemicals on the ball between shots (USBC rules and such)....and I bowl in an AMF center that returns my ball back to me looking like a Dalmation with black spots all over it from their dirty lanes/ball return....I sometimes spit on my ball and wipe it with my towel. That also usually serves the purpose of keeping people from touching it.

There are a lot of cleaners that are approved for use during bowling that I'm sure are more effective than "Aslan Spit"

[Mark O]

There are a lot of cleaners that are approved for use during bowling that I'm sure are more effective than "Aslan Spit"

Yes Amyers is right, there is a laundry list of cleaners that are approved for use during bowling. Here's a link: http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/Approved_cleaner_polish.pdf

[NewToBowling]

I'm thinking I want to learn NOT to sue my towel. I'll admit it's a force of habit now that I wipe down before each roll but honestly that's the only reason I do it now. I don't think it really helps long term.

[Aslan]

There are a lot of cleaners that are approved for use during bowling that I'm sure are more effective than "Aslan Spit"

That's not even something you can be sure of.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f2/b2/13/f2b21314f7d239dd5ec98bfee48c1702.jpg

[DarkyDizzle]

My opinion is leave it behind the lanes, including towels (after you wipe off).


100% agree. Ever since I started bowling when I was 6 we were always taught bowling etiquette and that was to bring it back with us. I carry it up for my roll and carry it back when I finish. Just something I personally have always done.

[Ishkabibble]

I lay it across my shoulder if it is a smaller towel or leave it on the back table. We really don't have an issue in my league with items being left on the ball return.

[classygranny]

I wipe my ball every frame and thus leave my towel on the ball return while I bowl. I make sure that it is down between balls so it isn't laying on someone's ball and near the front so it doesn't keep the balls from coming back to the front of the return. I always pick it up after I am done so it is only there while I am shooting. We don't really have any other place close by to put towels except on the floor, as the front table may not be the one our team is sitting at. Most people do the same as myself, but a lot just let it sit on top of the balls, and majority remove them after their turn.

[Timmyb]

Since I can't use chemicals on the ball between shots (USBC rules and such)....and I bowl in an AMF center that returns my ball back to me looking like a Dalmation with black spots all over it from their dirty lanes/ball return....I sometimes spit on my ball and wipe it with my towel. That also usually serves the purpose of keeping people from touching it.


Seems to be a thing with AMF centers. The one I bowled at for a few weeks in Milwaukee left so much crap on my ball, it took over and hour to clean it up, and half a bottle of cleaner. Is there some unwritten rule that they don't clean the returns or subways?

[Aslan]

Seems to be a thing with AMF centers. The one I bowled at for a few weeks in Milwaukee left so much crap on my ball, it took over and hour to clean it up, and half a bottle of cleaner. Is there some unwritten rule that they don't clean the returns or subways?

I don't know. I complained to the manager and showed him my bright red ball that looked red and black it was so dirtied up. He told me something about how it might be how I'm throwing it or maybe I throw it too hard or something like that. Yeah, okay. It's the bowler's style at fault?

This is the same house that it's almost impossible to find a pair of lanes where the pinsetters aren't constantly dropping pins needing to be reset...and the same center where one of the pinsetters caught on fire during league play and was smoking...smelled like burnt pizza. Bowlmor bought them and painted the building and put neon lights outside...but then fired most of the staff, reduced the hours they'd be open, and put $0 into equipment improvements.

I think Bowlmor is a secret communist faction that is trying to undermine and destroy bowling in America and bring down Democracy as we know it.

Oooo....crazy conspiracy theory...ICEMAN...ICEMAN....ICEMAN...
(I said his name three times so he would appear...like a white version of Candyman)

[Timmyb]

I don't know. I complained to the manager and showed him my bright red ball that looked red and black it was so dirtied up. He told me something about how it might be how I'm throwing it or maybe I throw it too hard or something like that. Yeah, okay. It's the bowler's style at fault?

This is the same house that it's almost impossible to find a pair of lanes where the pinsetters aren't constantly dropping pins needing to be reset...and the same center where one of the pinsetters caught on fire during league play and was smoking...smelled like burnt pizza. Bowlmor bought them and painted the building and put neon lights outside...but then fired most of the staff, reduced the hours they'd be open, and put $0 into equipment improvements.

I think Bowlmor is a secret communist faction that is trying to undermine and destroy bowling in America and bring down Democracy as we know it.

Oooo....crazy conspiracy theory...ICEMAN...ICEMAN....ICEMAN...
(I said his name three times so he would appear...like a white version of Candyman)

Yeah, that's it. You're throwing the ball so hard it's scorching the oil right on to the surface. One more MPH, and it'll be throwing a fire rooster tail! I hate to see any houses go out of business, but if you don't take care of your s**t, you do it to yourself. My regular house has a packed lot every day. Red Carpet West (AMF) usually doesn't look likes it's open.

[NewToBowling]

Seems to be a thing with AMF centers. The one I bowled at for a few weeks in Milwaukee left so much crap on my ball, it took over and hour to clean it up, and half a bottle of cleaner. Is there some unwritten rule that they don't clean the returns or subways?

It's center specific, not limited to AMF. I know my local AMF I bowl at must have the best maintenance people or something because I've been bowling there almost exclusively for the past 6 months or so and my balls are still in almost new condition. No scratches, gouges, marks. I still have my Cyclone (first purchased ball) that I used at various centers and it is beat up to hell.

[Aslan]

It's center specific, not limited to AMF. I know my local AMF I bowl at must have the best maintenance people or something because I've been bowling there almost exclusively for the past 6 months or so and my balls are still in almost new condition. No scratches, gouges, marks. I still have my Cyclone (first purchased ball) that I used at various centers and it is beat up to hell.

I'm not saying some AMF and Brunswick centers aren't better than others...it's just the trend appears to be getting purchased by Bowlmor is like a ticket to The Green Mile. IF your center doesn't close down (and that's a big "if"), you'll be expected to be open very rarely, get rid of most of your current staff...especially the higher paid folks, and the emphasis isn't going to be bowling...it's gonna be ambiance and bar sales.

And Bowlmor lies about these things...claiming that centers that went under or were closed were simply not seeing enough business to survive...yet from what I've seen, that's hit or miss as an argument. I've seen three centers close recently (since 2012) and in those cases the centers nearest to them got flooded with displaced bowlers and are so busy they now have to regularly turn people away. So, it's not an issue of "busy"...it's an issue of maximizing profit.

To intentionally get off on a tangent....since this is a political year...it's like when conservatives talk about how more regulations or health insurance or an increased wage...how those things will all lead to layoffs because companies can't afford those things. That would be TRUE....if we assume that said companies have no ability to lower profit expectations to accommodate for these increased costs. And that's what they want you to think....but it's simply not true.

Example:
You have a bowling center, we'll call it the Iceman Center of Bowling Gifted Excellence for lack of a better name.

You make $3000/day in gross profit.
Your labor costs are $800/day.
Your utilities/business costs are $350/day.
Your cost of goods/materials are $700/day.

So, you NET $1150/day. That's $418,600/year net profit.
The OWNER has decided that based on his annual investment of $673,400, his expectations are to make 60% ($404,040) annually on this establishment.

Now lets say a minimum wage goes up significantly and a $100/month/person healthcare tax is added. That brings the annual costs up say $219.40/day in increased wages and $32.88/day in new healthcare costs. The center still makes money, but not 60%. It instead makes $324,678 annually on an annual investment of $767,322. So, instead of making 60%, the center makes nearly 42%.

Now, in the OLD DAYS...you could generally make about 2.5% in a savings account, about 8% in real estate, and about 8-15% in the stock market. So a business owner would see the profit number fall < 8% and decide there are better investments than a bowling alley. But in our CURRENT society....banks pay 0.5%...real estate is a coin flip...and the stock market is currently just struggling to break even on the year.

So...I ask the question every Republican hates (or simply can't comprehend)....what is "ENOUGH". Enough profit, enough money....what is "enough"? If you own a bowling alley and it's making you $50,000/year...in an economy where most other investments are offering no better than a break even scenario...isn't it a viable investment? Sure...it was a BETTER investment making $418,600 versus $324,678...but its still making you money.

And this is an EXTREME example because we're talking about a truly small business when we're talking bowling alleys. Most of the time when this discussion comes up...it's multi-million or billion dollar companies that are talking the difference between making 15.6% versus 14.8% or something along those lines.

The pressure we see in California is a little different than most areas...but probably compareable to New York City. It isn't that the centers aren't profitable...it's that the value of the land those centers sit on is extremely high. So if you're an owner wanting to make $200,000 annually and it's looking more like $147,000 annually....and along comes a real estate investor offering you 4 million dollars for the facility....you sell. That's what happened to TWO centers in Orange County since 2012. Both privately owned, both making money, but both in areas where the land was just too expensive. And as the proprietors get older and older...eventually they just want to cash out.

But I wanted to make this point simply because it's a common misconception when we hear about places closing or laying people off....that they are doing so to make money...as if NOT doing that will cause them to lose money. That's rarely the case...especially the bigger the company. In the vast majority of these situations it's about what the owner WANTS to make in profit versus what they can reasonably make in profit.

And this ties even into the immigration debate in the country. You hear companies say, "those workers do jobs Americans won't do". That's actually not really true...and is a way of circumventing simple capitalistic, economic principles of supply and demand. For example, I would hate to have a job cleaning hotel rooms. I'd hate it...with a passion. But if Hilton came to me and said, "we really need maids...what would it take to get you to join our team and clean hotel rooms for a living....my price would be rather high. Probably $60/hour minimum with benefits. But see....not everyone is going to give that high a number. You can probably find a legal American who would LOVE to clean hotel rooms for $17/hour. But the hotels claim that's "too high". Is it? Is it not what the market dictates? And in a society where cheap, illegal labor is eliminated....hotels simply would pay $17/hour and charge more and make less profit. But that's not what they "want" to do. It's easier to hire illegal aliens and pay them virtually nothing. Do you honestly think the Marriot would lose money if they doubled their wages? Probably not. They make billions of dollars a year. But see...that's the rub. They don't want to make "millions"...they want to make "billions"....and higher wages would limit that.

Now, the smaller the company, the smaller the profit margins, the harder wage increases are on the company. Like, small farmers. If they only make a 5-10% profit....they could see that evaporated hiring legal, American workers. But hey, right now a banana costs 50 cents. Maybe with legal workers, a banana costs $1. That's capitalism....that's how economics works. Illegal workers shortcut the system and allow companies to circumvent the laws of supply and demand.

What were we talking about? Towels or something?? I forget.

I actually forgot my towel Saturday when I bowled. It was a strange feeling since my pre-shot ritual involves wiping my bowling ball between frames.

[NewToBowling]

I've only been interested in the ins and outs of bowling industry the last year so only until recently have read up on downfall of bowling. In my leagues there are a lot of senior leagues and senior bowlers in regular leagues. What's going to happen when they all die off (harsh but hey, that's reality :)). Not much new blood coming into bowling.

[Aslan]

To add some substance to my complete hypothetical...here's something I found online:

CASH FLOWS (http://www.bowling.com/braden.aspx)

The lineage (games) in a well run, state-of-the-art center in the U.S. can range (on the high side) from 12,000-15,000 games per lane per year. The national average for chain operated centers is 9250 lines per year. Internationally, centers in certain new markets have generated as much as 25,000-30,000 lines per year. The average cost per game in the U.S. is approximately $2.00 The average nonbowling revenue is $.67 for every $1.00 of bowling revenue. This is for things such as food and beverage, shoe rental, vending machines, arcade games, etc. A bowling center averaging 11,000 lines per year will generate approximately $36,750 per lane annually. Operating cash flows should be from 25%-33% of gross revenue.

So a 40-lane center should gross $1,470,000.
In my complete hypothetical, I had that at $1,092,000.

Most rough estimates on cost per day seem in line with my estimate of $1850 ($1830 from what I found online).

So, despite not yet being fully analyzed and vetted by our resident fact checker MWhite...I think I guessed pretty close. Now, do centers make $300-$400 thousand a year? Probably not. I'd guess more in the $50,000 range for most centers after taxes and all expenses...but this will vary greatly based on location, pricing, and most significantly whether the center is carrying loan debt. But the data I've found uses $2/game as the average game price and I'd say that's an outdated price. Most centers are closer to $3/game on average.

[fortheloveofbowling]

What is enough money or enough profit?? Funny how you Cali liberals love to give away other peoples money. If you have extra money at the end of the month why don't you give it away? As long as you pay your bills and have money for recreation that should be enough right?

[fortheloveofbowling]

To add some substance to my complete hypothetical...here's something I found online:

CASH FLOWS (http://www.bowling.com/braden.aspx)

The lineage (games) in a well run, state-of-the-art center in the U.S. can range (on the high side) from 12,000-15,000 games per lane per year. The national average for chain operated centers is 9250 lines per year. Internationally, centers in certain new markets have generated as much as 25,000-30,000 lines per year. The average cost per game in the U.S. is approximately $2.00 The average nonbowling revenue is $.67 for every $1.00 of bowling revenue. This is for things such as food and beverage, shoe rental, vending machines, arcade games, etc. A bowling center averaging 11,000 lines per year will generate approximately $36,750 per lane annually. Operating cash flows should be from 25%-33% of gross revenue.

So a 40-lane center should gross $1,470,000.
In my complete hypothetical, I had that at $1,092,000.

Most rough estimates on cost per day seem in line with my estimate of $1850 ($1830 from what I found online).

So, despite not yet being fully analyzed and vetted by our resident fact checker MWhite...I think I guessed pretty close. Now, do centers make $300-$400 thousand a year? Probably not. I'd guess more in the $50,000 range for most centers after taxes and all expenses...but this will vary greatly based on location, pricing, and most significantly whether the center is carrying loan debt. But the data I've found uses $2/game as the average game price and I'd say that's an outdated price. Most centers are closer to $3/game on average.

Those figures are from a 1998 analysis so for many reasons you have wasted your time with these numbers. We have lost all kinds of bowling centers in the last 17 years so i'm not sure what your point is with this.

[Aslan]

What is enough money or enough profit?? Funny how you Cali liberals love to give away other peoples money. If you have extra money at the end of the month why don't you give it away? As long as you pay your bills and have money for recreation that should be enough right?
So you're essentially endorsing the Bill Gates and Warren Buffet philosophy that when you have a poo-ton of money...more than you could realistically spend in 2 lifetimes...it's best to give some of it away? Or are you saying Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are foolish because that's their money...whether they need it or not...and they should thus store it in a vault like Scrooge McDuck and dive into it like kids playing in leaves??


Those figures are from a 1998 analysis so for many reasons you have wasted your time with these numbers. We have lost all kinds of bowling centers in the last 17 years so i'm not sure what your point is with this.
Well, the bowling industry...especially ball manufacturers...tend to be a little closed fisted with data...so it was the best I could find on short notice.

Wouldn't it be nice for all ball manufacturers to publish sales numbers and have a database where you could go in and find the ball that has thrown the most 300s or is used in the most PBA events, etc.., etc...? I think it would be.

I will create a separate thread for my political ramblings. I've hijacked towel etiquette enough.

[Tony]

ASLAN "Illegal workers shortcut the system and allow companies to circumvent the laws of supply and demand."

What ? Illegal workers (more labor supply) shift the equilibrium wage right / down. It would be closer to say unions attempt to circumvent the laws of supply and demand by pushing the wage higher than would it would otherwise be, using the market. Actual changes in both cases are a shift along the demand curve. There are also some "Obama logic" economists that would say demand expands and equilibrium remains constant. While it could be somewhat true for items produced if they are partially paid in production, but that doesn't happen enough to be accepted by most economists.

Not at all seeing where this turned off of the towel thread, where the demand for towels and the supply of towels meet is the bowling center ?

[Aslan]

ASLAN "Illegal workers shortcut the system and allow companies to circumvent the laws of supply and demand."

What ? Illegal workers (more labor supply) shift the equilibrium wage right / down.
Correct.


It would be closer to say unions attempt to circumvent the laws of supply and demand by pushing the wage higher than would it would otherwise be, using the market.
Correct. That's why under an Aslanian Administration....we would eliminate illegal immigration, the minimum wage, and labor unions. And it's a far, far simpler and more humane plan that what "The Donald" proposes. Read more in my "politics thread" (if it isn't on fire and locked yet).

[dnhoffman]

Ugh, I hate this too man!

I also hate people that leave rosin bags on the ball return ... That's the worst!