Need a weak ball that still hits hard?

[fordman1]

I am getting to old to generate a lot of speed so every thing hooks too much out side. Go in and can't get the carry. Have tried a Pitch black and need a little more hitting power. Don't get me wrong I can still get it down the lane with some hand and speed but have lost carry.
Is it the cover or the drilling I need to look at? Probably both.

[Amyers]

I'm just not a big fan of Urethane except for the high velocity guys for normal to slower speed deliveries I just don't seem to see the carry with them and especially with highly surfaced balls like the pitch black. I've tried a few different things for myself and watched others and what provides the most success seems to fall along these lines.

#1- If you refer to play up the boards (right of 10) and tend to be speed dominate don't be afraid to try a very strong ball with a weak layout. One of the most successful I have seen is the Original Mastermind with a 2 inch pin to pap drilling. I have numerous friends who bowl with this style who have used this combo and with every one it has become their go to ball

#2- If you prefer to move left or have to due to lower speed rev dominate style go with a weaker ball drilled for length and strength. I recently purchased the Brunswick Danger Zone with this type of drilling. Most of my previous balls had been more medium to strong with weaker drillings. The danger zone actually hooks more than my stronger balls but I can move left and play over the 4th arrow and still carry with it which my other balls just won't do.

Good Luck

[LyalC52]

I agree with Amyers"s #1
my daughters are now throwing high end balls with weaker layouts and their carry has greatly improved
find a good PSO, maybe get something you don't mind plugging and re drilling a few times until you find the right layout

[JasonNJ]

I've gotten to a point where I'm not buying as many balls but instead I'm manipulating the surfaces to get the ball to do what I need. So for example, the ball I'm using now for when the lanes get toasty is a Columbia 300 Swerve which is a really aggressive solid ball but I have it really polished so it's perfect for me now. Hits like a truck but skids so much longer with the polish.

[Amyers]

I've gotten to a point where I'm not buying as many balls but instead I'm manipulating the surfaces to get the ball to do what I need. So for example, the ball I'm using now for when the lanes get toasty is a Columbia 300 Swerve which is a really aggressive solid ball but I have it really polished so it's perfect for me now. Hits like a truck but skids so much longer with the polish.

This is normally a good point but urethane doesn't take to surface manipulation the way resin cover stocks do.

[JasonNJ]

This is normally a good point but urethane doesn't take to surface manipulation the way resin cover stocks do.


I agree but I got the impression that Fordman1 wasn't throwing Urethane just that he didn't like the Pitch Black.

[fordman1]

I have tried many balls I use the pitch black for 10 pins. I have been throwing the Hyper cell skid. I have no problem getting it to the pocket from inside it just doesn't carry good. I was looking for something to play down and in. I still have a little speed and hand. My approach has slowed down due to Age, weight and a torn hamstring a few years ago. I still can play just wanted to play a little straighter. I sometimes try to throw the Cell like a straight ball up the 2nd arrow. It will flip but not consistently and when it flips early I never miss leaving a split. Just need a weaker ball and layout. Would totally balanced work I can still get around the ball. Even at my age I can still hook the ball more than most people.

[Amyers]

I have tried many balls I use the pitch black for 10 pins. I have been throwing the Hyper cell skid. I have no problem getting it to the pocket from inside it just doesn't carry good. I was looking for something to play down and in. I still have a little speed and hand. My approach has slowed down due to Age, weight and a torn hamstring a few years ago. I still can play just wanted to play a little straighter. I sometimes try to throw the Cell like a straight ball up the 2nd arrow. It will flip but not consistently and when it flips early I never miss leaving a split. Just need a weaker ball and layout. Would totally balanced work I can still get around the ball. Even at my age I can still hook the ball more than most people.

Makes sense to me the Hyper Cell Skid is a strong ball and very flippy unfortunately if your not in the right place or on the wrong condition that kind of ball gets temperamental quick. I would look for something symmetrical with medium surface 3k-4k in the middle of the road cover strength wise. I would use a balanced or length drilling on it but stay away from the long and strong type stuff. The stronger the ball I picked I would go with weaker drill and vise vs. At the strong end the Mastermind Einstein (probably on clearance) would work with a weaker drill or go the other way and look at a the Storm Match with a stronger drilling. The Hyroad would be a good choice to. Don't be afraid to adjust the cover to get the reaction you want.

[fordman1]

I took the hyper cell skid down with a 2000 and it smoothed it out but not working yet.

[Amyers]

The hyper cell skid sanded to some large extent becomes a hyper cell so unless you have the oil for it the ball can't perform.

My guess is out of box the ball is unpredictable sanded it doesn't carry. Your probably not matching up with it and the conditions in the oob finish and it's burning up to much and hitting weak sanded.

If that's the problem a surface change isn't going to fix the problem. Sometimes a ball just doesn't fit your game and the conditions your bowling on

[fordman1]

That should make it arc rather than snap. More smooth. I also tried the new LT48.

[Amyers]

That should make it arc rather than snap. More smooth. I also tried the new LT48.

What were your experiences with the LT 48?

[fordman1]

It was stronger than I expected.

[Amyers]

It was stronger than I expected.

Lol I think that is what everyone I know who has thrown that ball says about it. If you need to even out the reaction a little from it take it down to 3k or 4k on the surface I think it actually rolls better that way. It tends to make the ball a little less angular and allows it to handle a little more oil which is great if you want to start off with it.

[mc_runner]

I'll chime in and also say the LT-48 was stronger than I expected! I had initially penciled it in as a ball-down from my Nano but it ended up reading a lot earlier on the lane than I figured it would.

[RobLV1]

As I've said on many occasions, if we could just get away from using the terms "weak" and "strong" for bowling balls, we would all have a much better understanding of them. I have reproduced a portion of an article from my website that explains my rationale:

Weak Ball - Strong Ball - Right Ball - Wrong Ball October 2013

Ever since the first article that I wrote for BTM in the fall of 2007, a theme that I keep coming back to is the potential pitfall of forming preconceived ideas about bowling. Whether it be forming an opinion about where to play on the lanes in a particular center, about how you will bowl on a particular pattern, or what ball to use, preconceived ideas can only hurt you, particularly if you treat them as gospel, rather than as informed suggestions.
Another theme to which I often refer is the power of words. As a coach as well as a former English teacher, I understand that words have incredible power. If you’ve ever dealt with multiple coaches over a period of time, I’m sure you know exactly what I’m talking about. Often the particular words that a coach uses to address something that you’ve heard several times before all of a sudden make sense. Saying the same thing using different words often makes all the difference. Such is the power of words.
It occurs to me that these two concepts are often very closely related in bowling. I came to this conclusion a few weeks ago when I was bowling some penny ante pot games one morning. I heard a bowler say, after the fourth game, that the lanes had gotten so dry that he was forced to use a really weak ball. I asked him what makes a ball “weak.” He replied, “The core and the cover.” He told me what ball he was using and it turned out to be the same kind of ball that I was throwing at the time. It just so happened that we ended up bowling on the same pair for the next game. I couldn’t help but notice that he was not throwing his “weak” ball nearly as well as he had been throwing a “strong” ball earlier. He was trying to help it hook. Was this perhaps due to the fact that he considered the ball so weak that it needed help?
What would happen if we all agreed to drop the judgmental words that we use to describe bowling balls, layouts, and lane conditions, and replace them with descriptive words that notate differences rather than judgments? A weak ball is merely one that is less aggressive than a strong one. A strong ball is just more aggressive than a weak one. Is it possible that by simply using descriptive rather than judgmental words to describe bowling balls, bowlers will realize that “matching up” to a given lane condition is not necessarily using a ball that hooks the most, but using one that strikes the most? I think so. The expression in golf used to describe the importance of the short game is, “drive for show, putt for dough.” I don’t think that golfers would mind if we borrowed their phrase for bowling: hook for show, strike for dough.
Anyway, first I tried to determine what different bowlers consider the primary factors that make bowling balls “weak” or “strong.” I was surprised at the diversity of answers. Most consider the total amount of boards covered as being the main factor in determining strength. Now, here’s the problem. For a low rev player, the main determiner of how many boards a ball covers is how soon it hooks. That’s determined by the low rg measurement. A low rg ball begins to rev up earlier, causing it to cover more boards from the foul line to the pocket. For a high rev player, on the other hand, it’s a combination of the low rg and the differential that determines how many boards a ball will cover. Finally, in both cases, the reactivity of the cover material in the oil, as well as in friction affects how many boards the ball covers. So what really makes a ball strong? Is it how early it revs up, how much flare potential it has, or how reactive the cover is in oil and in dry?
Now, let me really tickle your brain for a moment. Suppose a ball has a very reactive cover, a low rg to hook early, a high differential for maximum flare potential, and is used on a lane condition where it revs up too early, finds too much friction, over-reacts to the lane surface, and burns up at 40’ only to hit the pins like a toasted marshmallow, is it still strong? How can a strong ball hit like a toasted marshmallow? The ball is not strong after all, is it? But it’s not weak either because of its characteristics, it just hit like it is. It’s not strong, it’s not weak, it’s just WRONG for the lane condition. In other words, it just doesn’t match up. So, in this situation, you change to a ball with a higher rg for more length before it hooks, a lower differential for less flare potential, and a less aggressive cover material, and it retains its energy all the way down the lane a absolutely demolishes the pins. Is the weak ball now strong? No, it’s just the RIGHT ball for the lane condition. It matches up!
The whole concept of weak ball, strong ball, is only a problem because of the way that most bowlers approach bowling balls. They see bowling balls in terms of compensating for their perceived stylistic deficiencies, rather than in terms of complimenting their strengths. In other words, many bowlers try to buy a ball that hooks out of the box for the simple reason that their own style does not allow them to hook any ball as much as they would like to. They don’t realize that the touring pros can use the aggressive equipment that they use on television because of their styles. They have the ball speeds and rev rates to be able to use these aggressive balls on the tough lane conditions with heavier volumes of oil on which they bowl. When less powerful bowlers mistakenly try to use this same equipment to emulate the pros, they just end up with balls that are strong when they release them and weak by the time they reach the pins.
The same things can be said for the terminologies that we all use for layouts. You know, strong ball – weak layout, weak-ball strong layout, blah, blah, blah. So what makes a layout strong or weak? Traditionally we were all told that it was the distance from the pin to the PAP that created maximum flare. Most drillers believed that a pin to PAP distance of 3 3/8” created the maximum flare potential. Then a few of us considered the changes in modern bowling balls and began to believe that the strongest pin position was one half of the distance between the bowlers PAP and his ball track. A minor difference in most cases: somewhere between 3 ¼” and 4”.
Next, the Dual Angle System was introduced. According to this system, for symmetrically cored balls, maximum flare is achieved with a pin to pap distance of between 3” and 4”, but for asymmetrically cored balls, and pin to PAP distance from 2 ¾” to 6 ¼” will produce maximum flare. Finally, Storm introduced its Vector Layout System (VLS) where testing showed that in three identical balls with asymmetrical cores, all with a pin to PAP distance of 4”, the pin buffer (the horizontal distance of the pin from the vertical axis line) significantly changed the amount of flare, with a 2” pin buffer creating the most flare.
So now that we know that layouts are not nearly as simple as they used to be with the pin to PAP distance being the only determiner of the “strength” of the layout, can we please just refer to a layout as being one of the ways that we use to match a particular ball to a particular bowler and a particular lane condition? Every layout doesn’t have to be strong to go long and snap. Enough already! Oftentimes a bowler’s style necessitates the use of a layout that helps the ball to rev up quickly producing a more arcing motion. The fact of the matter is that when the lanes are played properly, using the oil to get the ball to the breakpoint before the friction takes over, most lower rev bowlers will see a ball that has been laid out to rev up earlier as being much “stronger” than a more angular motion. As I have said many times before, using a layout that is designed to go long and snap is not going to give you a ball reaction that resembles the pro’s reactions, unless you have a pro’s release.
Please note the reference to playing the lanes properly above. I am talking about, of course, bowling on a house lane condition where typically league bowlers not only use bowling balls that are much too aggressive for the lane condition, they are also playing the area of the lane at or outside of the second arrow where the ball encounters friction way too early. This is typically what causes the overly aggressive ball to lose energy and angle. Again, the preconception monster rears its ugly head as the bowler remembers the immortal words that his father told him forty or fifty years ago: “Always follow your misses. If you miss to the right, move your feet to the right.” Oh if only we could erase that ingrained thought from our bowling minds, what a bunch of happy bowlers we could be!
Judgmental terminology also affects the way we think about lane conditions. In Las Vegas this past summer, we went through one of the longest “monsoon seasons” that we’ve ever experienced. There were several weeks of scattered thunderstorms and high humidity. In a desert environment that is extremely dry for most of the year, high humidity can play havoc with lane conditions. Apart from the effects on our physical games from sticky approaches and thumb holes that seem to have shrunk considerably as we try to get our thumbs to exit cleanly, the humidity always seems to result in over/under reactions on the lanes. Balls in the oil seem to skid further, and balls in the friction either hook a ton, or burn up and go straight.....

For the complete article, please visit: www.modern-bowling.com in the Bowling Ball section

[Amyers]

As I've said on many occasions, if we could just get away from using the terms "weak" and "strong" for bowling balls, we would all have a much better understanding of them. I have reproduced a portion of an article from my website that explains my rationale:

Weak Ball - Strong Ball - Right Ball - Wrong Ball October 2013



As I've said before this article makes some good points especially if your talking about joe average bowler who sports a 160 average and bowls once a week. After rereading your article again here though I think you have made a false assumption in saying that "Most consider the total amount of boards covered as being the main factor in determining strength". I find with most bowlers it's not the total boards covered but the backend boards covered that they actually use as their strength comparison. I've seen numerous bowlers buy very aggressive balls that cover a lot of boards but because they don't have that backend change of direction they misunderstand how strong that ball actually is.

In truth it doesn't actually make any difference if we call a ball strong or aggressive or anything else. What matters most is we understand our style, where we play on the lanes, and the conditions we bowl on. I do believe that maybe being more descriptive of the actual ball motion could help. A good example is my post on the Lt-48 when I remarked about the ball being "stronger" than a lot of my friends who had purchased it had expected from it. Mc-runner then posted that his Lt-48 was "stronger" too but that it was earlier than he expected. Now to me there is nothing early about the Lt-48 is actually a pretty long ball from everyone I've seen so he's seeing something different. Now changing the word to "Aggressive" vs "Strong" helps nothing here but if Mc-runner didn't include more info we would think that we agreed when we did not regardless of the terminology used.

One of a few things are going on with my perception of the Lt-48 and Mc-runner's.

1.It could be that he is playing a different portion of the lane that the people I've seen throw it or that his THS pattern is way different than I'm used too. Possible but not likely as I know quite a few people who throw this ball and I've seen it on numerous patterns.

2.It could be that there is something in Mc-runner's style that could be the cause. Possible I haven't seen him bowl.

3.He could have a different layout on his than most of the ones I've seen. Also possible but to make it earlier than an IQ Tour Nano seems a stretch.

4.It could be that the ball is hooking so much more on the backend that it is forcing him farther left and he is mistaking the greater backend reaction of the LT-48 as being early when it's not it just covering more backend boards than his Nano. This is the most likely in my opinion but I don't really know for sure.

I'm sure there are some other factors here I didn't mention too that could cause our differences in perception of the balls. Another similar example would be my wife who has been bowling about 2 years she uses two balls a Brunswick Nirvana and a Brunswick Mastermind Braniac. If you asked her which of the two balls were more aggressive or stronger (insert word of your choice) she would tell you it's the braniac. Now we both know the Nirvana is the more aggressive of the two balls but the braniac hooks more on the backend on most THS patterns anyway so it forces her to move left to use it even on a fresh shot. In reality a large part of what causes the problems of trying to tell the strength or aggressiveness of a particular ball is the THS patterns we bowl on with the defined dry spots on most THS patterns any ball can get to the pocket and most will perform to some greater or lesser extent regardless of right ball wrong ball. Maybe you should have names the article the better ball. Throw those two balls on a flat pattern the difference is obvious on THS it's harder to tell It's differences like this that makes it more important to use more words to clarify what we are talking about that just can't be replaced by any moniker.

[RobLV1]

Two points:

1. I hear talk from 220+ bowlers who constantly talk about which ball hooks more, and they are virtually always talking about total boards covered, not just backend reaction.

2. My reason for recommending staying away from calling balls "weak" or "strong" is simply the fact that words do have subconscious connotations. In our society, we revere things that are "strong," and show disdain for things that are "weak." Those connotations do have implications for any bowler who does not understand ball motion in terms of where the ball hooks rather than when it hooks.

[mc_runner]

This is interesting. Rob, in point 1 is it always total boards covered on a house shot? Is it boards covered playing up 10, or through the oil, etc? I think the different lines and the THS has a lot to do with the perception of a ball being "strong" or not. To your point a tropical breeze or strike king played up 5 on a THS can "cover more boards" vs a strong ball that dies out 30 feet down the lane and rolls its way into the pins thus having a perception of being stronger in that instance.

To answer some of Amyers questions... it's probably a little bit of all of those things except 1. I had a few challenges with this ball from the get-go.

1. It's a "heavy" 15. So much so that nearly everyone who has picked it up has thought it was a 16. Unless it was a misprint on the box or a production/packing error, it was a 15. However I agree that it seemed heavier than my other 15lb balls. This difference in weight I believe led me to roll with less side rotation, and perhaps a little less speed, with the end reaction being that it read the lane earlier.

2. The layout was standard but the drilling was pretty bad. I tried a new PSO out for this one and he messed up my initial drilling (no measurements, he went off a previous ball, etc.). I no longer have the ball, but it was drilled pin up and right of the ring finger. Generic. Even after I got the ball re-drilled to fix span and thumb pitch however, it never really felt as comfortable or "right" as the other balls I had, which could also have led to the different roll I got with it off my hand.

3. I know that this one will probably irritate some people but I generally throw storm and this was the first brunswick product I had. I did noticed a different shape vs the storm and roto grip products, which was certainly something that made me feel that it read earlier.

I had some good games with the ball (even a 279) but never really got into a consistent groove with it. When I say it wasn't really a ball down from the nano I didn't mean that it covered more boards... only that it seemed to read the lane around the same point where I would have expected it to glide through a little more before beginning it's move.

[fordman1]

Wow good thing I didn't ask something complicated. All I wanted was a few recondition for a ball weaker that an LT48 and stronger than a pitch black. That and a good drilling pattern so I can play outside.
Now why do balls have ratings? Could it be that some are stronger than others?

230 is stronger than 160 right?

For the Pros a 10 hooks more than a 6 Right?

I may be old but I have a lot of confidence that I could shoot 300 and better than 750 this coming year.

[RobLV1]

This is interesting. Rob, in point 1 is it always total boards covered on a house shot? Is it boards covered playing up 10, or through the oil, etc? I think the different lines and the THS has a lot to do with the perception of a ball being "strong" or not. To your point a tropical breeze or strike king played up 5 on a THS can "cover more boards" vs a strong ball that dies out 30 feet down the lane and rolls its way into the pins thus having a perception of being stronger in that instance.

3. I know that this one will probably irritate some people but I generally throw storm and this was the first brunswick product I had. I did noticed a different shape vs the storm and roto grip products, which was certainly something that made me feel that it read earlier.


1. Those that consider balls "strong" or "weak" based on the number of boards covered do not understand modern bowling well enough to grasp the concept that an overly aggressive ball can lose energy if thrown on a line where the oil is already gone.

2. There are differences between ball companies in terms of ball reaction and those differences are the result of cover formulations. There is no difference that is greater between ball reactions from different companies than those between Storm and Brunswick. Balls from Storm seem to be designed to give more read on the backends and balls from Brunswick seem to give more mid-lane read. This is based on my own experience with balls from both companies.

[RobLV1]

Wow good thing I didn't ask something complicated. All I wanted was a few recondition for a ball weaker that an LT48 and stronger than a pitch black. That and a good drilling pattern so I can play outside.
Now why do balls have ratings? Could it be that some are stronger than others?

230 is stronger than 160 right?

For the Pros a 10 hooks more than a 6 Right?

I may be old but I have a lot of confidence that I could shoot 300 and better than 750 this coming year.

1. Try one of the new Brunswick Rhino Pros.
2. There is no drilling pattern that will let you play outside. The lane tells you where it wants to be played... it's not your decision nor your PSO's.
3. The "Perfect Scale" is pure nonsense, designed for bowlers who are too lazy to understand the four componants that determine ball reaction.
4. The scale that is used for the pros on the PBA telecasts describe hook potential based on several factors including surface and layout.
5. Confidence is a good thing... often better than reality!

[Amyers]

This is interesting. Rob, in point 1 is it always total boards covered on a house shot? Is it boards covered playing up 10, or through the oil, etc? I think the different lines and the THS has a lot to do with the perception of a ball being "strong" or not. To your point a tropical breeze or strike king played up 5 on a THS can "cover more boards" vs a strong ball that dies out 30 feet down the lane and rolls its way into the pins thus having a perception of being stronger in that instance.

To answer some of Amyers questions... it's probably a little bit of all of those things except 1. I had a few challenges with this ball from the get-go.

1. It's a "heavy" 15. So much so that nearly everyone who has picked it up has thought it was a 16. Unless it was a misprint on the box or a production/packing error, it was a 15. However I agree that it seemed heavier than my other 15lb balls. This difference in weight I believe led me to roll with less side rotation, and perhaps a little less speed, with the end reaction being that it read the lane earlier.

2. The layout was standard but the drilling was pretty bad. I tried a new PSO out for this one and he messed up my initial drilling (no measurements, he went off a previous ball, etc.). I no longer have the ball, but it was drilled pin up and right of the ring finger. Generic. Even after I got the ball re-drilled to fix span and thumb pitch however, it never really felt as comfortable or "right" as the other balls I had, which could also have led to the different roll I got with it off my hand.

3. I know that this one will probably irritate some people but I generally throw storm and this was the first brunswick product I had. I did noticed a different shape vs the storm and roto grip products, which was certainly something that made me feel that it read earlier.

I had some good games with the ball (even a 279) but never really got into a consistent groove with it. When I say it wasn't really a ball down from the nano I didn't mean that it covered more boards... only that it seemed to read the lane around the same point where I would have expected it to glide through a little more before beginning it's move.

I understand completely. If the Lt-48 was reading at the same point your Nano was something is wrong the important thing is you realized it and moved on. Trying out a new PSO is always an adventure.

[Amyers]

1. Try one of the new Brunswick Rhino Pros.
2. There is no drilling pattern that will let you play outside. The lane tells you where it wants to be played... it's not your decision nor your PSO's.
3. The "Perfect Scale" is pure nonsense, designed for bowlers who are too lazy to understand the four componants that determine ball reaction.
4. The scale that is used for the pros on the PBA telecasts describe hook potential based on several factors including surface and layout.
5. Confidence is a good thing... often better than reality!

I haven't got to try out the Rhino yet or see one in action yet. I'm thinking of adding one to the bag this summer. I can recommend the Soul or Soulmate though. My daughters both use the Soulmate and two of my teammates throw the soul and both balls give a nice consistent reaction on the lanes. I will agree with Rob if the shots not there down and in you have to adjust to where the lanes are playable at and not try to force it where you want to play.

If you prefer the later read of a storm ball I would go with the Ride or the Match from Storm. I can really comment on drilling your better off to talk to your PSO who has seen how you bowl for that.

[1VegasBowler]

RobLv1 and I bowled once together recently, and it was an honor and a pleasure to bowl with him. I would certainly do it again :)

My main balls are the DV8 Vandal and the Thug Unruly, and as RobLV1 will attest to, I can get some ridiculous pin carry with not so great hits.

And while my approach to spares makes him shake his head a bit (lol), it has been very effective for me.

Anyhow....There are 3 balls that I have looked at recently and I will be getting 2 of the 3 here in the next few months. The Vintage Danger Zone, the Mastermind Brainiac and the Ultimate Nirvana.

The Ultimate Nirvana is definitely going in the bag (probably in August). It seems to go a bit longer than the Nirvana with a smoother finish and a ton of pin action.

The Mastermind Brainiac and the Vintage Danger Zone are both darn good balls and making a choice between the 2 is very difficult, but I don't think I can go wrong with either since I want to have a symetrical ball in my arsenal.

I will certainly be talking with Johnny Petraglia, Jr. to see what the advantages and disadvantages of these 2 will be. He will be my "go to" on this one since he is a Brunswick Staffer, and he will probably know better than most. (No offense to anybody here)

[larry mc]

just got the new rhino ,, it hits harrrd

[1VegasBowler]

Well, I spoke with Johnny Petraglia, Jr. on Saturday and we certainly both like the same bowling balls for the same reasons.

I spoke with him about the Mastermind Brainiac and the Vintage Danger Zone, and why I wanted a symetrical ball in my arsenal. Without any hesitation he said the Vintage Danger Zone is the one to go with.

I told him that when I do get it in about a month or so, that I want a dual angle drilling and I'm going to let him decide what the dual angle will be for what its primary use will be for.

I trust Johnny implicitly and i know he will do what he thinks will be best.

[Amyers]

Well, I spoke with Johnny Petraglia, Jr. on Saturday and we certainly both like the same bowling balls for the same reasons.

I spoke with him about the Mastermind Brainiac and the Vintage Danger Zone, and why I wanted a symetrical ball in my arsenal. Without any hesitation he said the Vintage Danger Zone is the one to go with.

I told him that when I do get it in about a month or so, that I want a dual angle drilling and I'm going to let him decide what the dual angle will be for what its primary use will be for.

I trust Johnny implicitly and i know he will do what he thinks will be best.

I'm pretty sure I would be taking Jonny's advice over mine or probably anybody on most sites too if he was available. One of the advantages of being somewhere like Vegas. I think you'll like the danger zone it's become my go to on THS shots here lately. I'm not as fond of it on the sport shots though although a surface change would probably fix that.

[1VegasBowler]

I'm pretty sure I would be taking Jonny's advice over mine or probably anybody on most sites too if he was available. One of the advantages of being somewhere like Vegas. I think you'll like the danger zone it's become my go to on THS shots here lately. I'm not as fond of it on the sport shots though although a surface change would probably fix that.

You've it the nail right on the head!

Those of us who are fortunate enough to live in cities where we have access to people like Johnny have an advantage over those who do not have such resources.

When I mentioned the same equipment we have in common, he and I both have a Vandal & Thug Unruly. And while I'll soon have a VDZ & Ultimate Nirvana, he already has them! lol

I know his wife also has a VDZ because I saw it in her arsenal when she was practicing with a new DV8 Grudge. (new as in drilled only a few minutes before she threw it..lol) Heck, she even picked up her VDZ and handed it to me so I could look at it closer. How many people do you know who do that? Very few that I know of! lol

On another bowling board, I have said that I do value the opinions of others. Anything I can pick up to improve my game comes with an appreciation that is greater than one can imagine. And while I do not always agree with somebody's opinion, they certainly have that right to express it. Agreeing to disagree with out having a fully blown bru-ha-ha always keeps things interesting, and with an open mind one should be able to understand the perspective of another.

While there are many people out here who know people like Johnny and others like him in this sport, I consider myself lucky to have such a resource. I also don't take advantage of the fact of his notoriety because that has never been my way with others. I not only know Johnny by doing business with him, but I also know him and his wife on a personal level and they are both great people.

If he tells me that the VDZ will be better than the MB on sport shots, I have no doubt he will do what is necessary to make this ball work, and as long as I stay with it, everything will work out.

[fordman1]

Vegas I have a question for you. Do they put weight blocks in those 12 lb. balls you use?

[1VegasBowler]

Vegas I have a question for you. Do they put weight blocks in those 12 lb. balls you use?

They do not.

[fordman1]

OK that settles that. When I asked advice on the weight of a ball I was hoping for a pro shop guy or a bowler with some knowledge of adult balls. Skidding a ball from the corner to the head pin doesn't make you an expert. Have you ever hit a 600 series?

[fordman1]

I forgot the part where you said you take 11 or 12 ibuprofen before using your 12 lb. ball.

[Amyers]

They do not.

Your 12 lbs. do have cores they just use a generic core that approximates the reaction of the core they used in the heavier balls. Your Danger Zone and the Thug have the same core as the heavier balls the Vandal may not.

[1VegasBowler]

OK that settles that. When I asked advice on the weight of a ball I was hoping for a pro shop guy or a bowler with some knowledge of adult balls. Skidding a ball from the corner to the head pin doesn't make you an expert. Have you ever hit a 600 series?

Quite a few 600's Mr. Judge & Jury.

[1VegasBowler]

Your 12 lbs. do have cores they just use a generic core that approximates the reaction of the core they used in the heavier balls. Your Danger Zone and the Thug have the same core as the heavier balls the Vandal may not.

You are correct. But the VDZ has a different cover stock vs. the Thug Unruly (pearl vs. reactive resin), and it is drilled much differently than the Thug Unruly, where the VDZ will go a bit longer without the pronounced snap which is how I wanted it. Not to mention it was a bit cheaper as well. lol

[Amyers]

You are correct. But the VDZ has a different cover stock vs. the Thug Unruly (pearl vs. reactive resin), and it is drilled much differently than the Thug Unruly, where the VDZ will go a bit longer without the pronounced snap which is how I wanted it. Not to mention it was a bit cheaper as well. lol

Oh I wasn't saying the balls were similar just that they both had cores

[1VegasBowler]

Oh I wasn't saying the balls were similar just that they both had cores

I understand :) Wasn't looking to debate :)

[fordman1]

Vegas are you self taught or do you have a coach?

[1VegasBowler]

Vegas are you self taught or do you have a coach?

Way back when, when I first started bowling I was taught by my father, rest his soul.

Since my return in 2014, I've self taught through watching videos, and by trial and error on the lanes.

Never had a coach.

[fordman1]

Maybe you can tell me then. Is it the ball you put in your hand, or how much hand you put in the ball? Is your carry better when you are high flush or light? Which is harder the 7-10 or the 2-8-10 in your opinion?

[1VegasBowler]

Maybe you can tell me then. Is it the ball you put in your hand, or how much hand you put in the ball? Is your carry better when you are high flush or light? Which is harder the 7-10 or the 2-8-10 in your opinion?

For myself, it is a combination of both. The ball in my hand and how much hand I put in to it.

The particular ball I choose and lane conditions dictate how I will release the ball. For example: I can throw my Vandal & Thug Unruly at different speeds and strengths depending where my break point starts and where it changes when the lanes begin to burn out.

The same applies when I bowl on totally fried lanes. I move left and make adjustments during during my 10 min of warmup to make that determination.

On a long oily patters I might also use my plastic ball and use the straighter is greater technique and not throw hard at all. With my new Vintage Danger Zone, I have yet to try it on the shorter patterns and heavy oil conditions. But that will change on Wednesday when I start my PBA Experience league.

As far as my carry goes, I have had the good fortune of getting good carry with both. If I am throwing my ball well, high flush works good and so does light. My ball rotation has got me many strikes when I don't hit the head pin very well, and admittedly, many more than I should have. But as long as the book doesn't say a strike has to be pretty I'll take every X that hits the scoreboard.

With the 7-10 and the 2-8-10, they both spell disaster. But the 2-8-10 is the toughest of the 2 (have not made either). With the 7-10, in the early frames I'll go at the 7 from corner to corner with the hopes the 7 will kick around and I have had it bounce around many times. From the mid frames on I as straight as an arrow at the 10. The count means much more at this point.

With the 2-8-10 I'm more interested in the count and that's because I go corner to corner for this because it is probably easier for a lefty too make this one, not that they are very successful making it either.

Remember that this is how/what I do for my own game. My style with a very short arm swing made me change my game from years ago and has given me better accuracy. And as I have said on other threads, days of a Mark Roth approach are long gone. It resembles more like Marshall Holman, by staying low from start to finish.

[fordman1]

You should post a video of yourself bowling.

[1VegasBowler]

You should post a video of yourself bowling.

I might do that some day, but for now I get the wife to video me when things are really running sour.

With a lot of things going on right now, doing a video is almost impossible. Tomorrow I'll be with the USBC to do lane certification and later on in the afternoon I have a tournament to bowl.

Monday & Tuesday I'll be at the Orleans working the PWBA USBC Queens tournament, and from there I bowl my Monday night league.

Wednesday I'll be at the Orleans in the am for the same tournament and then bowl Wednesday night.

Thursday night I'll be at the Orleans for the stepladder broadcast of the tournament.

Friday is my sleep day!

Saturday I have 2Q 9 Tap Championships Semis to bowl.

And Sunday I have the PBA 50 Pro Am at 12:30 and if I qualify for the 9 Tap Finals I have to go to another bowling center to play in that.

Very long week ahead! lol

[Amyers]

Maybe you can tell me then. Is it the ball you put in your hand, or how much hand you put in the ball? Is your carry better when you are high flush or light? Which is harder the 7-10 or the 2-8-10 in your opinion?

This would make a good post Fordman. For me it's the hand I put in the ball. I carry better light than flush (if I'm carrying flush well watch out it's gonna be a good game). The 7-10 is way harder for me I've gotten lucky an had the 2 bounce off the 8 and hit the ten and picked it up on a few occasions. I've never even got close on the 7-10 I don't have the ball speed to bounce it off the wall.

[fordman1]

With the juiced up side boards they have now the light hit is much better than the solid pocket. The head pin comes off like it is shot out of a cannon. Hits that were buckets in the old days are now strikes. We used to laugh at people who threw the ball hard because if just spin off the back of the alley. Now throw hard and it is like an explosion.

Both splits are just luck I refuse to hurt my arm again trying to throw hard. Make a better shot on the first ball and smile.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

I am getting to old to generate a lot of speed so every thing hooks too much out side. Go in and can't get the carry. Have tried a Pitch black and need a little more hitting power. Don't get me wrong I can still get it down the lane with some hand and speed but have lost carry.
Is it the cover or the drilling I need to look at? Probably both.

If you want to stick with storm products, Look at the Hy-Road. There's a reason its been on the market for 8 years now. The ones that I have thrown all showed similar traits. I got decent length, but smooth off the break point. Honestly, without actually seeing you bowl and knowing the conditions in which the issues arise will make it difficult to give for sure direction.

[billf]

I am getting to old to generate a lot of speed so every thing hooks too much out side. Go in and can't get the carry. Have tried a Pitch black and need a little more hitting power. Don't get me wrong I can still get it down the lane with some hand and speed but have lost carry.
Is it the cover or the drilling I need to look at? Probably both.

Hace you tried a Cyclone, Rhino or Freestyle?

[LOUVIT]

I throw 12.5 mph and I bought a 15# Track Heat, the ball moves a good amount at the end of the lane and carries awesome. with my old ball I left a lot of 5 pins and 5-7's. this ball at that slow speed blows out the 5 every time and carries light hits.