Sandbaggers........

[fokai73]

For those who basically cheat in bowling - sandbaggers, are their actions on the lanes a reflection of who they are as a person outside of bowling?

[RobLV1]

There are really two issues here. First, yes, people who would cheat in bowling would cheat at most anything else they do. They are not the kind of people to choose as friends. Secondly, sandbagging is really pretty rare, and pretty obvious when it happens. For everyone that has ever been called a sandbagger, maybe one in fifty really is. Calling someone a sandbagger is simply a knee-jerk reaction for someone who does not understand that handicaps ALWAYS favor the high average bowler over the bowler with the handicap.

[vdubtx]

Don't know how you can put a number to how many actual sandbaggers are sandbaggers. They are actually pretty easy to spot if you watch them.

...and I would say yes. Anyone that sandbags intentionally has low moral standards in their life away from bowling.

[LOUVIT]

I am concerned with this. i bowl on a afternoon league and have no average coming in. I consider myself about 165 to 170 average as of right now. After my first 2 weeks in the league I am averaging 140. If I break out the 3rd or 4th week and shoot a high 500 or possibly a 600 I worry about what they will say. I only started bowling again 5 months ago after 25 years and am still learning the new game and equipment. only some of the people know me from the summer practice league and I shot a few 200 games and usually 170's or close.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

That's a little different... I'm sure people know you're "new"

We have a guy on my wed league that booked 219 last year. He shot 480 first night and like 540 this past week.

[RobLV1]

That's a little different... I'm sure people know you're "new"

We have a guy on my wed league that booked 219 last year. He shot 480 first night and like 540 this past week.

Did he take the summer off? For every bowler like this, there are five who get all excited because they average 220 for the first two weeks in a handicap league until they realize that they've done themselves in for the year.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

Did he take the summer off? For every bowler like this, there are five who get all excited because they average 220 for the first two weeks in a handicap league until they realize that they've done themselves in for the year.

He does the same I do for the summer. Take off of leagues and travel for tournaments. he was at a few of the sport tournaments out of town over the summer when I was there.

[LOUVIT]

That's a little different... I'm sure people know you're "new"

We have a guy on my wed league that booked 219 last year. He shot 480 first night and like 540 this past week.


he had an average going in I guess, I came in with no average or card...I am starting with my first 9 games ..I think...The longer I'm in this slump the harder it will be to establish a decent average, I am 61 years old i don't want a 140 average on the books. 25 years ago I averaged 190 in league and better in action...lol..yea I know...."a has been..lol"

[billf]

I know a few who claim to sandbag. Problem is they aren't good enough for it to be an advantage except one guy. He isn't bagging either though. Evey bad night he says he is to keep his average down for State. I had fun when he shot 409 at Nationals two years ago. Beat him at State the last three seasons and I suck. Even his wife is a better bowler than him but when you talk to him, he is the best in the area.

[mc_runner]

That's a little different... I'm sure people know you're "new"

We have a guy on my wed league that booked 219 last year. He shot 480 first night and like 540 this past week.

On my thursday league, I came in with a 208 from last year and shot 570-513 the first 2 weeks. No sandbagging, just bad matching to conditions on my part (and I bowled the summer, too!). It's also really annoying if someone accuses you of bagging when in reality you're just having a bad night and are frustrated from that to begin with. Sometimes it just happens, sometimes people have a little more up their sleeve. Also, what Rob was saying has been true for me in so many leagues it's not even funny. Kind of strange to have my foot in the other shoe this time around.

[fordman1]

My first night last Friday I hit the head pin every shot with 95% what you could call pocket hits. I was rewarded with 4 strikes all night. Even my team was laughing.
Good bylaws can help keep sandbagging down a little bit. Best way is banning them.

[LOUVIT]

let me understand,, if you come into the league with an established 200 average and bowl terrible isn't it hard to change that average? I came in with no average and no card, and after 6 games have a 140.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

let me understand,, if you come into the league with an established 200 average and bowl terrible isn't it hard to change that average? I came in with no average and no card, and after 6 games have a 140.

Not at all. My leagues for example use your book average from that league the year prior (then regular book if you didn't bowl that league) for the first 3 weeks then you go to your current average. It's hurts some and helps some.

Take me for example... Last year this league was my "experiment" league when I'd get new balls, trying new things ect.. I only booked a 190 in this league so that's what I'm using the first 3 weeks.

First week I went and shot 690. Then this week I shot 715 (w/ a 300) all while getting 27 pins a game... So currently I'm at like 234. Even if I throw horrible next week I'll still likely go into week 4 (when current average starts) losing all handicap since it's based off 220.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

Now take the guy who booked 219 last year... If he continues shooting how he has next week, he will go into week 4 around a 170-175 and going from 1 pin of handicap (219 ave) to getting 45ish

[zacks]

Now take the guy who booked 219 last year... If he continues shooting how he has next week, he will go into week 4 around a 170-175 and going from 1 pin of handicap (219 ave) to getting 45ish

In one of my leagues I heard something new in our first night meeting. Your established average after 9 games cannot be more than ten pins lower than your entering (book) average. So in this case, the bowler you mention will be re-rated to a 209 average. Now this past summer I had established a 187 after booking a 203 and they did not re-rate me and I have seen others in similar situations (usually just bad bowling, not bagging). So I'm assuming this is a new rule or one that no one really enforces.

I do like the idea. If someone is capable of averaging 219 over a long winter season, they should not get the handicap of a 170 bowler because of 3 low scoring weeks.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

That's something the league would have to vote in. We have a honest league for the most part so we have never even mentioned anything like that but I have heard of leagues putting that in place. The tournament I did weekly over the summer had something like that but your tournament average couldn't fall below your entering average (book Ave)

[ep1977]

This week I played the team with the leagues highest average bowler from last year which was 227. This was week 2 in the league this season and he averaged 181. Said point blank he has to get the 10 pin drop.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

Atleast he's honest lol

[fordman1]

If your league uses BLS league soft ware the 10 pin drop rule can be put in automatically. Even a 5 pin drop rule.
It also allows you to put in the cushion rule.
At the beginning of the year you take your carry over avg. from the league last year. If you are new to the league you take the highest year book average from the last 3 years.
Say you are a 200 average bowler. you start with 21 games bowled and 4200 pins. Say you bowl 500 the 1st week your average would drop to 195. this continues until you have 21 real games then it is dropped automatically.
You don't get dramatic jumps or drops in avg. and no matter how much you sand bag your too will never go below 190.
I know some were talking about singles leagues but if it is a team league you should only H\C teams not individuals. No cap or number you take your h\c from should be lower than the highest team average. All of these are covered in the BLS program and also in the other major one League sec.

[Jconner91]

Our mens league has the rule you can not go below 10 pins below your book average from last year. I strongly believe in this rule just for the reason below with the guy that has a 219 book and is bowling in the 170s. That is ridiculous

[manke]

So your telling me a guy cant shoot 550 the first night of league? Give me a break, he could just be having a bad night lots of splits. I'm pretty sure anybody that has a book average wants to be throwing 180s.

[got_a_300]

I always try and bowl my best but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way and
you get some splits and maybe a missed single pin spare then you get accused of
sandbagging when you have a bad night.

I've never tried to intentionally sandbag on purpose as I don't believe in doing that
myself because I want to get all the pins that I can every time I throw a ball I've
had team mates that wanted me to sandbag a little but I tell them in no certain
terms NO way and I do not bowl with them after the league ends and the
new season starts I find new people to bowl with that doesn't ask me to do that.

[manke]

Why would anyone sandbag the first night of the season. I want get every pin i can, i dont know how people could sandbag.I hate losing.

[ep1977]

Why would anyone sandbag the first night of the season. I want get every pin i can, i dont know how people could sandbag.I hate losing.

They sacrifice the first 3-6 weeks of the season to try and dominate the rest of the weeks. Sandbagging is really a team effort to get maximum handicap as a team. A team in my league has 2 bowlers with averages over 214 and they both barely broke 400 in weeks 1 and 2.

[fordman1]

It has been explained in detail how to stop sandbaggers in the 1st few weeks of the season. Go to the League Organizational meeting and change the rules or quit whining.

[ep1977]

It has been explained in detail how to stop sandbaggers in the 1st few weeks of the season. Go to the League Organizational meeting and change the rules or quit whining.

Who's whining? If you don't want to read about others opinions on this subject it's very simple don't open the thread!!!!!

[JaxBowlingGuy]

It has been explained in detail how to stop sandbaggers in the 1st few weeks of the season. Go to the League Organizational meeting and change the rules or quit whining.

One person can't change it. Over half the league would

[Tony]

It has been explained in detail how to stop sandbaggers in the 1st few weeks of the season. Go to the League Organizational meeting and change the rules or quit whining.

Keep in mind a few things, people try to be reasonable about changing rules to avoid chasing off too many bowlers who can easily quit and join another league, web sites and forums like this are one of the places where people in like situations can gather and commiserate and just because "we" know how to fix something does not mean it's going to happen, there are always some variables that we don't control to contend with.

[fordman1]

You can't get rid of sandbaggers with out changing the rules that they don't like.
EP I am trying to educate bowlers not be a smart A$$.
Sitting on your hands gets nothing done.

[LOUVIT]

This is my first league in 25 years, after the first 2 weeks and I have a 139 average. Now I bowled in the summer in a practice league with most of these people and they seen me throw from 140 to 240. Today was the third week, after starting a thread with a video of me I learned I was not behind the ball at all and was pulling it etc.... today I found it easy to stay behind the ball and get it where I wanted it. I started with a 190 then a 165....so would you think I was sandbagging, a guy with no average shoots this in 3 weeks? Last game we were crushed and honestly I was tired and sweating and shot 120... I would think I was sandbagging.

this is an example oh how you can be accused of it and not at all doing it.

[NewToBowling]

Truth be told most people aren't good enough to sandbag. They're just very inconsistent. The issue is smaller than people make it out to be.

[LOUVIT]

Truth be told most people aren't good enough to sandbag. They're just very inconsistent. The issue is smaller than people make it out to be.


I feel the same way..Is it worth it to average bad to wait 36 weeks for a little money...lol. If i was a 240 shooter I would probably be on tour and not sandbagging to win peanuts. also if you're that good you are bowling tournaments also..when I shot the first game today I felt great because the other team said there's 1 person making us look bad....lol remember this is an afternoon senior league with 20 teams. So a 180 or so average is pretty good. But old people always want to start trouble....bahahahahaha......

[zacks]

This is my first league in 25 years, after the first 2 weeks and I have a 139 average. Now I bowled in the summer in a practice league with most of these people and they seen me throw from 140 to 240. Today was the third week, after starting a thread with a video of me I learned I was not behind the ball at all and was pulling it etc.... today I found it easy to stay behind the ball and get it where I wanted it. I started with a 190 then a 165....so would you think I was sandbagging, a guy with no average shoots this in 3 weeks? Last game we were crushed and honestly I was tired and sweating and shot 120... I would think I was sandbagging.

this is an example oh how you can be accused of it and not at all doing it.

I would not think you were sandbagging, you're re-learning the game. You don't have a book average so all we have to go off of is three weeks of bowling (and I guess summer practice if it was with the same group). You shot a 475, which is good for your average, but in no way means you're bagging. If I was in your league and I didn't know you, I may casually ask if you were new to bowling or what your story was. I would never accuse anyone of sandbagging without proof, and it is very hard to have proof unless an individual flat out says they are sandbagging.

I just got one of my friends into bowling and have been working on his technique. His summer average was 135 and he almost broke 500 on week 2 of our winter league, shooting his first 200 game. The guys we were bowling could tell he was still figuring everything out and nothing was questioned. We crushed them anyway, he could have bowled his average and we still would have taken it by a good amount.

Now if someone with a 220 book average comes out with a 170 average after the first three weeks I would be suspicious, but all you can do is what is stated in the rules of your league. If I was bowling against this person, I may ask for the minimum 10 pin drop re-rate and leave it at that. Everyone goes through slumps, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

It's still early. Give it a few weeks and your average will climb as you get more comfortable.

[Tony]

You can't get rid of sandbaggers with out changing the rules that they don't like.
EP I am trying to educate bowlers not be a smart A$$.
Sitting on your hands gets nothing done.

It's good to make suggestions on steps to take to improve the leagues we play in, I am not trying to take away from that, we need to also keep in mind sometimes people just need to vent about things that bug them and get it out of their system.

I am a pretty vocal person and have made comments and motions at the league meetings, sometimes I can get something accomplished and sometimes not.

Some of the effort instead of fixing problems it action to prevent other people from implementing rules that I feel would not be good or are a reaction to one particular event.
We had a guy motion to change the scoring from 1 1 1 2 to 1 1 1 1 simply because in the championship they lost because while they squeezed out 2 games by a few pins each they lost the other game by 100 plus pins and they were pissed that series gave the other guys 2 pts and the championship. Well being a team sport me and others felt the scoring should remain the way it was but we had to expend some time talking to a few of the teams that didn't listen, care and urge them to vote to keep the scoring as is.

[LOUVIT]

I would not think you were sandbagging, you're re-learning the game. You don't have a book average so all we have to go off of is three weeks of bowling (and I guess summer practice if it was with the same group). You shot a 475, which is good for your average, but in no way means you're bagging. If I was in your league and I didn't know you, I may casually ask if you were new to bowling or what your story was. I would never accuse anyone of sandbagging without proof, and it is very hard to have proof unless an individual flat out says they are sandbagging.

I just got one of my friends into bowling and have been working on his technique. His summer average was 135 and he almost broke 500 on week 2 of our winter league, shooting his first 200 game. The guys we were bowling could tell he was still figuring everything out and nothing was questioned. We crushed them anyway, he could have bowled his average and we still would have taken it by a good amount.

Now if someone with a 220 book average comes out with a 170 average after the first three weeks I would be suspicious, but all you can do is what is stated in the rules of your league. If I was bowling against this person, I may ask for the minimum 10 pin drop re-rate and leave it at that. Everyone goes through slumps, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

It's still early. Give it a few weeks and your average will climb as you get more comfortable.


I see your point Zacks. But they have seen me shoot 200's and even a 235 also seen me shoot 120's but they won't remember them. I was a 190 shooter 40 years ago (when the game was hard..lol) and seen sandbaggers and laughed but as stated a guy shoots 170 and holds a 140 average don't scare me. I shot more action back in the day and leagues were for fun. I personally do not care what anyone does I just do not want to be accused. I know I will be and probably am now a 180 shooter at least. I have issues with my team to start with, seems I have to remind them that this is not a social meeting and to bowl when it's your turn but since I am the new guy I sit and shut up, so by the third game when everyone else is done I am too pissed to care. maybe after the 6th week or so I can speak up....I can't walk away from this league since it's the only people I know right now, Next season I will bowl a real night league if I improve the way I think I will. I am really not concerned with what they think just that the thread was here so I responded....lol

[Tony]

Truth be told most people aren't good enough to sandbag. They're just very inconsistent. The issue is smaller than people make it out to be.

The idea you have to be good to sandbag is not exactly true, it depends on the league scoring system, in some leagues where the bowlers bowl head to head against the guy on the other team for a point a game, when guy A has enough pins to win the game you will sometimes see him throw off the last couple of frames to "preserve" his handicap. If you played in a league with this scoring chances are you would notice a lot more than the occasional guy with a 200 book and 155 after the first 3 weeks type bagger.

[ep1977]

Truth be told most people aren't good enough to sandbag. They're just very inconsistent. The issue is smaller than people make it out to be.

I agree! The majority of sandbagging is done by bowlers with 215+ averages and that's not the majority.

[LOUVIT]

Does it really matter to someone that has an established average? If you have a 200 average from last year.. do you start over? This is a real question because I don't know. Ex...if someone averaged 200 end of last season and they shoot 150 for the first 3 weeks what is their average on the 4th week? I would think it's harder to change an established average than someone like me that is coming in with no average. Am I wrong?

[ep1977]

Does it really matter to someone that has an established average? If you have a 200 average from last year.. do you start over? This is a real question because I don't know. Ex...if someone averaged 200 end of last season and they shoot 150 for the first 3 weeks what is their average on the 4th week? I would think it's harder to change an established average than someone like me that is coming in with no average. Am I wrong?

Around here all leagues have the 10 pin drop rule. This means that the most your average can drop in a single season is 10 pins. If you averaged 200 last year that is your entering average this year and no matter how bad you bowl this year the lowest your average can go is to 190.

[zacks]

I am really not concerned with what they think just that the thread was here so I responded....lol

That's the attitude you have to take, you can't control other people's thoughts. Good luck.

[zacks]

Does it really matter to someone that has an established average? If you have a 200 average from last year.. do you start over? This is a real question because I don't know. Ex...if someone averaged 200 end of last season and they shoot 150 for the first 3 weeks what is their average on the 4th week? I would think it's harder to change an established average than someone like me that is coming in with no average. Am I wrong?

Leagues in my house are book for first 3 weeks then you use your "established average" from those 3 weeks on week 4. Week 5 you use your average from weeks 1-4, and so on. We also have the maximum 10-pin drop rule, though I've never seen it enforced. Can't recall anyone dropping more than 15 pins or so anyway.

Book average = last season
Established average = current season

[LOUVIT]

Leagues in my house are book for first 3 weeks then you use your "established average" from those 3 weeks on week 4. Week 5 you use your average from weeks 1-4, and so on. We also have the maximum 10-pin drop rule, though I've never seen it enforced. Can't recall anyone dropping more than 15 pins or so anyway.

Book average = last season
Established average = current season


ok 10 pin drop is something I've never herd of but explains a lot...thanks

[fordman1]

Does any use the cushion or even understand it?

[Tony]

Does it really matter to someone that has an established average? If you have a 200 average from last year.. do you start over? This is a real question because I don't know. Ex...if someone averaged 200 end of last season and they shoot 150 for the first 3 weeks what is their average on the 4th week? I would think it's harder to change an established average than someone like me that is coming in with no average. Am I wrong?

In most of the leagues around my area they use your book average and handicap for the first 3 weeks after that your average would be 150 for the 4th week and is recalculated week to week for the rest of the year. New bowlers are given an average the first week based on that one week of bowling and recalculated week to week so their handicap is based on the one week of play.

[Tony]

Does any use the cushion or even understand it?

Not sure I'm familiar with that term, how does it work?

[fordman1]

OK Tony it works like this. We used to use 30 games now we use 21.
Say your carry over average from last years in the league was 200 or if you are new the highest book average from the last 3 years us used.
You begin with 21 games bowled and a pin count of 4200
Week one you bowl 500 so your new count is 4700 pins and 24 games = avg. of 195
after week two's 750, pin count is 5450 for 27 games = avg of 201
Just keep adding on until you get 21 games actual and drop the 21 games and 4200 pins.
You would use your actual 21 game average.
Any good bowling program does this automatically BLS for example.
The good and not so good bowlers don't have drastic average changes using this.
Some vary after 21 games but the 10 pin drop rule helps with that.

[Amyers]

In most of the leagues around my area they use your book average and handicap for the first 3 weeks after that your average would be 150 for the 4th week and is recalculated week to week for the rest of the year. New bowlers are given an average the first week based on that one week of bowling and recalculated week to week so their handicap is based on the one week of play.

One of my leagues uses this method although we use the previous years average and not book unless they are new to the league then we use book and I kind of like it. The only issue I've seen with it was last year we had an older bowler who averaged 210 the previous season but had a minor stroke during the summer after the first week it was apparent he was not going to average anywhere close to that anytime soon. We called a team captains meeting and agreed to rate his average week to week to not put his team at a competitive disadvantage. He ended up ate 145 for the year started about 120 for the first few weeks

[LOUVIT]

In most of the leagues around my area they use your book average and handicap for the first 3 weeks after that your average would be 150 for the 4th week and is recalculated week to week for the rest of the year. New bowlers are given an average the first week based on that one week of bowling and recalculated week to week so their handicap is based on the one week of play.

I think this is what my league uses for the New bowlers like me. Our first week we didn't know if we won or lost until I finished the last game and had an average for the day.

[bowl1820]

OK Tony it works like this. We used to use 30 games now we use 21.
Say your carry over average from last years in the league was 200 or if you are new the highest book average from the last 3 years us used.
You begin with 21 games bowled and a pin count of 4200
Week one you bowl 500 so your new count is 4700 pins and 24 games = avg. of 195
after week two's 750, pin count is 5450 for 27 games = avg of 201
Just keep adding on until you get 21 games actual and drop the 21 games and 4200 pins.
You would use your actual 21 game average.
Any good bowling program does this automatically BLS for example.
The good and not so good bowlers don't have drastic average changes using this.
Some vary after 21 games but the 10 pin drop rule helps with that.

That looks familiar, I want say a similar system was used in a recurring monthly tournament many years ago. That or I just read it in something years ago.

But in all the leagues over the years I've bowled on or seen around, none of them ever used that system.

[fordman1]

1828 many leagues are ran by the better bowlers. Get enough of them and you control the bylaws.
Our league has been using the cushion for more than 20 years. The 10 pin drop for about 15.
For a good league you need fair rules for high avg. and not so high ones.
Set a team cap then invite all the 230 bowlers you want just don't let them get on the same teams.

[Tony]

One of my leagues uses this method although we use the previous years average and not book unless they are new to the league then we use book and I kind of like it. The only issue I've seen with it was last year we had an older bowler who averaged 210 the previous season but had a minor stroke during the summer after the first week it was apparent he was not going to average anywhere close to that anytime soon. We called a team captains meeting and agreed to rate his average week to week to not put his team at a competitive disadvantage. He ended up ate 145 for the year started about 120 for the first few weeks

They call it Bk average on the score sheet, it is the prior years average. My assumption is they are calling it / using the 'book" average for that league if you bowled in that league, and not your highest book average.
I would certainly agree that a physical change like your example is a good reason to make an exception to the rule.

[2handedsniper]

in my league people sandbag by not showing up or by saving "the lanes are wet"

[JaxBowlingGuy]

in my league people sandbag by not showing up or by saving "the lanes are wet"

Not showing up wouldn't be sandbagging. The only time not showing up would be of benefit would be if the persons league average is over the league handicap.

[fordman1]

The last two post are really confusing. I don't understand either. Can someone explain either?

[fordman1]

Robert it says you avg. is 219. So if the league H\C is 215 what would you never show up again? You lost me somewhere.

2 hander I have no idea what you are talking about?

[zacks]

Robert it says you avg. is 219. So if the league H\C is 215 what would you never show up again? You lost me somewhere.

2 hander I have no idea what you are talking about?

I think what he is saying is if the league uses cumulative individual handicaps instead of the team difference, a 230 average bowler in a 220 handicap league would get 10 free pins by not showing up. 230 blind plus 0 handicap which equals 230 whereas a 210 bowler would get 210 blind plus 10 handicap which equals 220.

I have no idea how saying the lanes are wet could be sandbagging?? Maybe using that as an excuse for bowling bad?

[ep1977]

My leagues sheets just came out today and after 3 weeks almost every bowler in the league with an average over 210 has a "d" next to there average. For those that don't know that means they took a 10 pin drop. This further proves my point that almost all sandbagging is done by the bowlers with the highest averages.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

I think what he is saying is if the league uses cumulative individual handicaps instead of the team difference, a 230 average bowler in a 220 handicap league would get 10 free pins by not showing up. 230 blind plus 0 handicap which equals 230 whereas a 210 bowler would get 210 blind plus 10 handicap which equals 220.

I have no idea how saying the lanes are wet could be sandbagging?? Maybe using that as an excuse for bowling bad?

Exactly.. All our leagues use individual handicaps not team handicap. For example my current league average is 237 after the 3rd week. Our handicap is based on 220 so if I sit out the next two weeks it guarantees the team an extra 17 pins a game over the handicap. Now on the 3rd week of missing they take 10 off your average which even then I'd still be over the handicap and technically helping the team.

Now I don't do that, I was just trying to make sense of the post I was replying to.

[fordman1]

Thanks for the clarification. It makes my point that if it is a team league it should be team H\C. Now if the league had a maximum team average and a H\C from say 1100 every team is on equal footing. Our league does that at 90%. Any time you have an average cap of 220 and bowlers with 237 it is easy to see the higher average bowlers are making the rules.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

We have 2 bowlers in the 230s, and probably 5 maybe in the 220, out of 108 bowlers. I think the high average is greatly outweighed in voting power.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

Last season by the end of the season the top 3 averages were 219.65, 219.60, 219.38 so all under the handicap... The high ave from lasts year is the 2nd high currently.

[NewToBowling]

My leagues sheets just came out today and after 3 weeks almost every bowler in the league with an average over 210 has a "d" next to there average. For those that don't know that means they took a 10 pin drop. This further proves my point that almost all sandbagging is done by the bowlers with the highest averages.

Not necessarily. Harder to maintain a 210+ average than say 170-180. A few opens or splits and you're done. Easier to squeeze out a 170 game than 210

[fordman1]

Team...team...team use team average from a set number higher than any team average.... Individual average won't matter.

[Tony]

We have 2 bowlers in the 230s, and probably 5 maybe in the 220, out of 108 bowlers. I think the high average is greatly outweighed in voting power.

Right now with 220 basis we have about 10 guys over and 3 at 250, but over 1/2 the league at 200 plus out of 92 bowlers. We do need to implement a team cap to keep things competitive. I think only one team is 900 but they are close to 950. That's the team that started in the league 2 years ago and won both years. If we had a cap at 880 or you give back pins we would have 2 or 3 teams close, but would they just bag a little and keep it under ? That's the question.

[fordman1]

Tony 4-5 man teams?

[Tony]

Tony 4-5 man teams?

4 man teams

[JaxBowlingGuy]

My Monday league from last year had the rule that if you were over the handicap individually that your team would lose handicap.

[fordman1]

The team H\C cap should always be higher than any team avg. Why would a league let one team load up and get such an advantage?

[Tony]

The team H\C cap should always be higher than any team avg. Why would a league let one team load up and get such an advantage?

So in this case with 100% of 220 and 4 man teams what is the appropriate team HC and penalty ? 880 and lose a pin for every pin over ?
I'm not sure but I don't think any of the guys on the team get any pins, ie all are over 220.

They just replaced their lowest avg bowler with a 250 avg bowler this year. Prior they had 2-220 -230 guys and 2-210 -220 guys
and one other is bowling a little better ....