How does PAP influence ball reaction?

[hoppy]

My wife's PAP is 7 1/2' out and 1 1/2" up form the center point of her grip. I've noticed that most PAP's are much closer, say ~5". Does this long PAP need a special drilling pattern to get roll and ARC? She throws about 12 mph straight over the 2nd arrow but leaves a lot, I mean a lot, of splits.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Graaille]

7-1/2" out? Sounds like a full roller to me. A couple of questions to clarify if I may:
1. Does her track fall between her thumbhole and fingers, or track right of the thumbhole (assuming she's a righty)?
2. You said she rolls at 12mph. Was that info measured at the arrows or the pins?
3. What weight ball does she use?
4. Has she tried moving her starting point. . . say . . .3 boards left of her normal start position and keeping the 2nd arrow as her target?

But to answer your question, the PAP of a bowler doesn't have squat to do about reaction. . . . it's the relationship of the position of the pin and cg to the PAP. Check out http://www.bowlingboards.com/blog.php?b=23 to get a bit more generic info about PAP. (blatant plug there) A second thread you might want to look at is http://bowlingboards.com/showthread.php?t=4164 where PAP is also discussed. However, if her track falls to the right of the thumbhole, you might want to investigate full-roller drillings.

[hoppy]

The "doesn't have squat" answers the question. I'll check out the references you provided. Obviously I need a better understanding of ball dynamics.

The ball speed is measured near the pins. Ball weight 12# - Ball - Gamebreaker

The ball track starts just outside of the thumb/finger holes and flares a couple of inches from there.

Strange but she carries probably 90% of high Brooklyn hits but can't (or won't) throw it there consistantly. I was wondering if it had something to do with that 7 1/2" PAP whicih one reason I asked the original question.

[Stormed1]

How was the Pap measured? does she throw a backup ball? If that is the case her track would be on the right side of the ball and i could see that Pap more possible. If she does throw a backup aand does'nt want to learn how to throw a normal rh hook have your pro shop drill the ball layout wise as if she is a lefty

[psaunders300]

Is it possible that her PAP was mis-measured? If her ball track is outside of the fingers and thumb, I would think her PAP would be in the 5-6 inch range. Mine is 5.25 and I track close to the fingers and thumb. Drillings should be based off of someone's PAP, so to your original question, yes her PAP should be considered and if the 7.5 is correct, there may be a need for a "special" drilling to get the most out of her ball. Keep in mind that it is preferable to use a non-flaring or low-flaring ball to measure PAP accurately. Good luck!

[hoppy]

Thanks for the reply Paul,
I emailed the Manufacturers ball designer for a "special drilling pattern" but he was of no help.
Here's what the ball looks like.

[psaunders300]

Hey hoppy,

I am not a ball driller, so I really cannot advise you the layout that is on the ball, but I do know that one's PAP should be factored in when drilling a ball. Are you looking to get a second opinion on how the ball is drilled? If so, is there another pro shop in your area that you can take the ball to?

There are adjustments that one should make when leaving splits and depending on how she bowls, your wife should adjust her feet and / or target either right or left. But first of all, she needs to consistently roll her ball over the same target. If she cannot do this, then she should work on being consistent, then the adjustments can be made.

Some other questions for you and your wife: Is there a coach in the area that could help her out? And is she willing to make some changes in her game in order to get better?

Again good luck!

[hoppy]

Thanks for the reply-
Ahhhh, the only option open to me is the way the ball is drilled. I just don't understand why the ball rolls like it does and was hoping there was a pattern that would get things 'right'.
1. For instance, the ball is tracking on the wrong side of the finger holes (for a left hander or backup bowler)
2. The axis is tilted 45 deg to the left and a little forward.

In regards to the PAP, it's 6 1/2" to the right and 1 1/2" down. Somebody pointed out that it couldn't be 7 1/2 as that is more than 1/4 the way around the ball. That's another contradiction as the PAP for a left hander is on the other side.

My gut feeling is that the ball is in a weak position going into the pocket. Seems the balll track should be on the right side (as the ball rolls down the lanes) and the axis should be tilted to the right if anywhere.

Perhaps it's just the way the ball is released and no driling pattern can help.

Thanks again for the ideas....

[Graaille]

Well one thing you might try would be drilling it pin over bridge, cg stacked below. If the image you included is 100% accurate, it looks like you've got it drilled more for a lefty, and a neutral drilling like pin over/cg under with no weight hole will potentially hold enough energy to clean the pindeck a bit better.

[hoppy]

Yes, it is drilled for a lefty - well, a right handed backup bowler.

The whole thing doesn't make any sense to me. Nothing is where it should be. I even called the manufacturer and their ball rep and ball designer looked at it and neither had any ideas except to use a left handed drilling pattern which it already was which shows how much attention it got... :(

Thanks for the reply....every input helps.

[Graaille]

Yes, it's drilled for a lefty, but if the oil ring pattern you've got on the image is correct, it's tracking for a righty - and if that's the case, your pin position put's it in an extremely weak position. That's why I said put the pin/cg in more of a neutral position for either hand.

[hoppy]

Yes, I agree with you.

I'm wondering if the ball isn't being released with the fingers in front of the thumb. That the thumb is doing the lifting, not the fingers. Maybe that explains the wrong side track. She does lead the downswing with the back of her hand facing the pins. I just assumed that when she flipped it clockwise her fingers got under the ball.
hmmmmm , have to think about that for awhile and how to tape the ball to see which direction it's turning, fingers first or thumb first upon release. This is crazyyyyyy
Thanks for the ideas.

[Graaille]

Sadly, that's not the first time I've seen that particular release in action. You wouldn't have to tape the ball, just stand at the foul line with your back to the pins and watch her forearm. You see the back/top of it, she's leading with the fingers (not what you want) - you see the front/bottom of it, she's leading w/the thumb (exactly what you want).

[Stormed1]

are you measuring the pap to the right of the grip or the left? as a backup bowler the pap would be to the left side. if you are measuring to the right side that would explain the 7 1/2 inch pap

[hoppy]

Ah, the PAP measurement. This one of the contradictions which is driving me crazy.

The PAP was assumed to be on the left hand side of the ball. (Ball in fingers over thumb position).
This is where the 7 1/2" came from.

Another poster said no, the PAP would be on the other side since 7 1/2" is more than 1/4 way around the ball. Putting the PAP on the right side gave me a 6 3/4" distance, but on the wrong side for a backup.

With a piece of tape on the PAP as originally measured, as the ball rolls down the lane, the tape is on the right side of the ball and about 3" up off the lane and maybe 30 deg back towards the foul line. Lower right corner of ball.


If I put the tape on the right side (6 3/4"), I wouldn't be able to see it as the ball rolled. It would be near the top of the ball ont the left side facing the pins.

Everything seems backwards and upsidedown.

[hoppy]

Maybe this picture will help clarify what I'm trying to say.
Righthander throwing left handed layout for backup delivery.