1st Annual BowlingBoards.com Virtual Tour!!! [Archive]

Aslan

03-27-2014, 12:05 AM

Okay folks!!! I had a small invitational with a couple other Bowlingboard.com members earlier this month and we then had ideas floating around about a more inclusive tournament format. Bowlingboards.com thought it was a great idea (I wasn't so sure) and is offering a $25 gift certificate to the winner of Season 1.

Below is the tournament format followed by details in how to sign up and participate.

REGISTRATION IS EASY!!!
STEP 1: Simply post HERE between 3/25 and 4/9 indicating that you would like to participate.
STEP 2: If you have a USBC ID number, post it along with your indication that you'd like to participate so your starting average can be validated.
STEP 3: IF you have a USBC ID but no established average on Bowl.com as of yet…you'll need to e-mail me a scan of your league sheet from March 2014 or give me the link to your scoresheet if it's on league secretary or something like that.
STEP 4: List your home city, county, and state (where you reside) and the centers you've played in leagues at (sanctioned and non-sanctioned) during 2013 and 2014.

EMail: aslan_supreme@yahoo.com (It's an "L", I'm not asian)

FORMAT (How does the tournament work?)

Once we have the participants, I will list everyone's starting averages. No validation (USBC #, league sheet, etc..) = you bowl scratch.

I will then draw names out of a hat to pair up you with another participant for that month.

You will then have the REST OF APRIL to meet up with one or more bowling board.com users within 110 miles of you and bowl at a center that will be selected for you at random (chosen within 45 miles radius of your location). You will get a different center/alley each month of the tour. If you live in a remote area where alleys are scarce, you may have to bowl at the same center more than once. You will bowl 3 games, get a print out of the scores, and e-mail them to me BEFORE the end of April.

RULES:
- USBC rules apply.
- THREE games…not best of 9, not best of 12. Cheaters make Aslan very upset…and Iceman even MORE upset…if you need to cheat at an online tournament then save the bowling money and spend it on therapy.
- You MAY bowl 1 game as a "warm-up". 5 frames each if it's a pair of you…3 frames each if it's a threesome. More than 3 players may bowl 1 warm-up game per 3 players, 2 games per 4-6 players, 3 games per 7-9 players, etc…

SCORING:
- HANDICAP TOUR. Handicap is 90% of 220. (220 - your average) * 90%. 220 averages and higher bowl scratch.
- Your average (and thus handicap) changes EACH WEEK. It's a TOUR…which means for the months of April through September…it is a VIRTUAL LEAGUE where your average goes up and down (just like a league).
- You will get POINTS for each win against your pre-selected bowling opponent each game and overall handicap series. 4 points per month at stake.
- At the end of SEPTEMBER….the top half of the participants (minus 3) will compete in a single elimination virtual tournament similar to March Madness style single elimination.
- Regardless of point totals, the participant(s) with the:
- most games bowled above average.
- most improved average.
- highest scratch pinball.
will receive automatic bids to the tournament. If there is a tie or one of those participants already makes the cut, we'll just continue down the points list to fill the last 3 spots.
- Seeding in the tournament will be based on points: most points plays least points (of those that make the cut), etc…

OTHER IMPORTANT RULES/NOTES:
- IF you don't play one month, you forfeit all 4 points to the chosen opponent.
- IF you bowl in a center where you are in a league, you lose 10 pins per game of handicap.
- YOU MUST bowl against another BB user so you can validate each other's scores. BUT…if you don't live within 110 miles of another participant…that restriction is waived and you are on your honor.
- If there is some "issue" with meeting another user or an "issue" with the center chosen/assigned…email me and we'll work something out.
- All disputes will be handled by an independent 3-person committee of Bowl1820, noeymc, and Mudpuppy. Their majority decision is final.

Tournament WINNER receives a $25 gift certificate from bowling boards.com.

GOOD LUCK!!!

Aslan

03-27-2014, 12:15 AM

Example of a participant registering, me!

REGISTRATION IS EASY!!!
STEP 1: I would like to participate.
STEP 2: USBC #8529-59071 (no average listed yet).
STEP 3: Have final scoresheet (emailed to myself) from league that just ended showing ending average of 165.
STEP 4: Yorba Linda, CA Centers I've bowled in leagues at: AMF Carter, Fullerton, CA and Concourse Bowling Center, Anaheim, CA.

BAMM!! I'm registered as a participant. If nobody else registers…I just won a $25 gift certificate by DEFAULT!! But hopefully zDawg and MWhite register….I want to defeat them AGAIN!!! :cool: :cool:

zdawg

03-27-2014, 01:19 AM

STEP 1: I would like to participate because its the only way for me to win
STEP 2: USBC #8677-37848 (no average listed yet)
STEP 3: Emailed you the most recent score sheet from my league
STEP 4: San Diego CA, only one league at Kearny Mesa Bowl in San Diego, CA

BAMM!! You didn't just win a $25 gift cert by default

bowl1820

03-27-2014, 07:49 AM

Notice:
The Gift Certificate has been Verified. So have fun.

For anyone wondering, bowlingball.com did offer a $25 Gift Certificate to sweeten the pot for the inaugural event of the tour.

bowl1820

03-27-2014, 08:52 AM

Example of a participant registering, me!

REGISTRATION IS EASY!!!
STEP 1: I would like to participate.
STEP 2: USBC #8529-59071 (no average listed yet).

corrected Member ID: 8259-59071

- All disputes will be handled by an independent 3-person committee of Bowl1820, noeymc, and Mudpuppy.

Since this is the first I have heard of being on this committee. I respectfully decline.

Mudpuppy

03-27-2014, 10:44 AM

Great work Aslan. I dig it.

I was hoping to maybe have a bit of a conference with a few of us (steering committee of sorts) to work out the details. $25 gift certificate is all fine and good but I was thinking more along the lines of a Hammer Deadly Aim for the winner. That gift certificate could go to the most improved average or something - imo. But then we would have to have "entry fees" for everyone to cover the cost of the ball, drilling and shipping. But I wouldn't think that would be an issue with paypal - a nominal like $20 entry fee. But I will roll with whatever you got going on and I will respectfully accept being part of the committee. I mean we can always run with whatever to see how it goes the first year and maybe telecon after the year is up to see if we want to make changes for 2015? Get some participation going, some feedback, etc.

I am confused though - you say "4 points per month" - does that mean bowling every week? I was hoping we could just bowl once a month. I like the fact that you say bowl with another BB member and that it is open to day / time of your choice within the month.

I am not 100% sure of random bowling alleys - I think that needs to be fine tuned. My initial thought was to get 2 or 3 bowling alleys that are local that the people running it might offer some kind of preferential treatment for our business. Maybe that is a free pop with 3 games of bowling or discounted bowling fees or whatever. I know the guy at the one alley by me would definitely do something. I think the -10 for bowling in your league house shouldn't apply but that is my opinion - shouldn't matter where you bowl. I think we need each person to submit a list of 5 bowling alleys they agree to bowl at and then it is randomly chosen from that list. Even with the concealed pistol license changes I am not going to bowl at some of the alleys around here - I shoot spares not people. I think if you start assigning random alleys that people don't agree to then you will seriously limit participation. If everyone submits 5 alleys and you agree to those alleys then new people joining can see those alleys and know who is bowling where (also beneficial to participation).

Ok so season starts in April and ends in September. How do you handle it if Joe Blow wants to join in say June? They just start in June with 0 points and gain points as they go? But that is not much incentive to join and qualify for the "September Madness" tournament? I guess it doesn't matter but might limit participation. Maybe a wild card spot for the tournament could be added to address this? Like for the people who didn't qualify for the finals each can submit their best series and the one with the highest over average qualifies as the wild card regardless of points?

One last thing (sorry no cliff notes here). I will throw in a custom wood sign for the overall winner. I will need input on design (nothing too crazy) but here is an example (non-bowling related) to give you an idea:

http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o348/mudpuppyr6/IMG956178.jpg (http://s340.photobucket.com/user/mudpuppyr6/media/IMG956178.jpg.html)

Mudpuppy

03-27-2014, 10:48 AM

I would like to particpate

USBC: 1034-72601

I don't have a scoresheet at the moment - I will grab one next time I bowl, scan and email to you.

Currently bowl at: Plaza Lanes, Plymouth, MI and Novi Bowl, Novi, MI

Aslan

03-27-2014, 11:57 AM

Notice:
Unless and until the Bowlingboards.com Admin./Owners. confirms they are offering any gift certificates, sponsoring or endorsing this tournament.

don't believe it.

Notice: Bowl1820 is a "hater". And yes, the site administrator reached out ot me directly offering the $25 gift certificate to the winner. For once...Bowl1820 is incorrect.

Since this is the first I have heard of being on this committee, I respectfully decline.
Well, okay...he's replaced with Iceman (if Iceman isn't dead). If Iceman is still MIA when the contest starts, we'll replace Iceman with zdawg since he was the first to register.

Aslan

03-27-2014, 12:28 PM

Great work Aslan. I dig it.

I was hoping to maybe have a bit of a conference with a few of us (steering committee of sorts) to work out the details.
Since it's attempt #1, I'm sure some minore issues will come up as we put it together.

$25 gift certificate is all fine and good but I was thinking more along the lines of a Hammer Deadly Aim for the winner....I mean we can always run with whatever to see how it goes the first year and maybe telecon after the year is up to see if we want to make changes for 2015? Get some participation going, some feedback, etc.
EXACTLY. First year, it's a gift certificate offered by the site (graciously and appreciated by the way). If we get participation and it looks like people want to try it again next year, I'm sure the site or some other sponsors will surface. I'm a little weary about charging entry fees...that creates problems. The entry fee at this point is membership to the site...which serves a secondary purpose of growing site membership. I like that it's for "something" but only a $25 gift certificate at this point because it should keep cheating to a minimum.

I am confused though - you say "4 points per month" - does that mean bowling every week? I was hoping we could just bowl once a month. I like the fact that you say bowl with another BB member and that it is open to day / time of your choice within the month.
Once per month. 1 point for each game, and 1 for overall handicap series. So 4 points are at stake, similar to the way most leagues are run. Once a month is plenty at this point...people are busy, summer is upon us, people are in multiple leagues, and it's already a bit inconvenient having to meet another member and bowl at an unusual center (possibly) so making it weekly would be way too burdensome.

I am not 100% sure of random bowling alleys - I think that needs to be fine tuned.
Thats the part I'm most "shaky" on. We'll see how it goes. The thought behind it is to get people out of their comfort zone. As you saw in the FABHSCZVA Invitational, forcing MWhite to bowl in a place he wasn't used to created a much more level playing field...and it was a learning experience for all 3 of us. Had we bowled in my house, I'd have had a huge advantage since my game is tailored to wood lanes. Had we bowled in Mike's house...he'd have probably shot over 600 without even trying.

BUT....but...we'll see how it goes. I'm super lucky that I have probably 54 bowling centers within 90 miles of me. That is NOT the case for everyone. And I don't want to discourage participation by having people bowl in a place they are weary of (like Mike being afraid to go to San Bernadino for crime reasons). But I think participants should give it a chance and look at it as a "fun excuse to bowl in a center they normally wouldn't. I just bowled in 2 centers in Vegas. It was horrible..way too much oil. But I loved it! Other than the scores...I love trying new centers and seeing how different the centers can be.

I think the -10 for bowling in your league house shouldn't apply but that is my opinion - shouldn't matter where you bowl....Even with the concealed pistol license changes I am not going to bowl at some of the alleys around here
I've only been afraid to bowl in one alley and it was just north of 8-mile on Dequindre. I don't think it's there anymore. But yes, obviously for places like LA, Detroit, St. Louis...if the participants feel their safety is at risk I would re-draw them a center. And we absolutely need the -10 per game for people bowling in their own houses. Actually, -10 might be on the low side. In ANY house around me, I average 138-158...but at MY house...I average 165. Mike W. is a 200 average bowler that bowled a 127 on a lane he wasn't used to. He would have GLADLY taken a -10 point hit to bowl in Riverside at his house...GLADLY.

One of the first things I learned (that I previously thought was a myth) about bowling...lanes are NOT all the same. NOT by a LONG SHOT. And since we can't get everyone together in person to bowl on a level playing field...we have to level the playing field by randomizing the alleys. If we don't, we might as well just turn in our league scoresheets every week and have a virtual league using our league scores...which is boring.

But lets see how it goes. If random centers is a problem in season 1...we'll change it for season 2.

Ok so season starts in April and ends in September. How do you handle it if Joe Blow wants to join in say June?
Thats a good question. Ideally, it would be nice if everyone signed up in the 2 weeks alotted for registration. But I guess we could keep registration open up until the end of July. Anyone joining late would obviously be at a points disadvantage and wouldn't be eligible for "most improved average"...but I don't have a problem with adding people as we go along. [/QUOTE]

One last thing (sorry no cliff notes here). I will throw in a custom wood sign for the overall winner. I will need input on design (nothing too crazy) but here is an example (non-bowling related) to give you an idea:

http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o348/mudpuppyr6/IMG956178.jpg (http://s340.photobucket.com/user/mudpuppyr6/media/IMG956178.jpg.html)

Yeah, I was going to comment that your post needs cliff notes. :p But, and I can't see the picture now because my work IT is run by nazis, that is a very generous and appreciated offer. I would definitely like a custom wood sign when I win!

bowl1820

03-27-2014, 12:51 PM

Notice: Bowl1820 is a "hater". And yes, the site administrator reached out ot me directly offering the $25 gift certificate to the winner. For once...Bowl1820 is incorrect.

To everyone I'm not hater of Aslan, like he wants wants you to believe.

Someone comes on here and says the site is giving a gift certificate or promoting something like this and the site admin hasn't posted a statement about it.

Then it needs to verified.

Update:
Which it has been verified by the Admin finally on 3-28-14

For anyone wondering, bowlingball.com did offer a $25 Gift Certificate to sweeten the pot for the inaugural event of the tour. We want this to be a fun thing that everyone can be involved in and have a chance at competing. Having handicap is the only way to achieve that.

Mudpuppy

03-27-2014, 01:33 PM

I am all good with random bowling centers - I think it helps improve my game bowling at different places, etc. I am not afraid to travel. I just thought it might limit participation but we shall see.

The gift certificate and sign should be good for season 1. See how it goes from there.

One more thought - April-September. I think maybe shorten that to April-July or August. Leagues start end of August. Make it a shorter season as a trial run and see how it goes. Just my $0.02. Like I said whatever you want to do I will go with it and promote from my side. I will even do live twitter feeds (twitter i.d. = @mudpuppyr1) for the Michigan events.

I think 1 more rule - the time / date of bowling has to be submitted 1 week prior to the bowling. That way someone doesn't bowl 6 times at the same center and submit their best scores.

Mudpuppy

03-27-2014, 01:37 PM

J Anderson

03-27-2014, 01:45 PM

Mudpuppy

03-27-2014, 02:41 PM

zdawg

03-27-2014, 03:14 PM

Also what about a "traveling rule". Say I was traveling to California - could I bowl with Aslan, Zdwag and MWhite that month? Or does it have to be at my local centers? Maybe I want to travel to KC to bowl with Iceman.

I don't think that should be a problem. If things don't pick up for me I'm gonna be moving back to the east coast (DC) in May, and while there are a bunch of centers in Northern VA, MD, Georgetown, and downtown DC where I could participate I'm trying to put that thought out of my mind for now :mad:

Mudpuppy

03-27-2014, 03:22 PM

I don't think that should be a problem. If things don't pick up for me I'm gonna be moving back to the east coast (DC) in May, and while there are a bunch of centers in Northern VA, MD, Georgetown, and downtown DC where I could participate I'm trying to put that thought out of my mind for now :mad:

Move to Michigan. It's the Anti-Aslan state. He's not even allowed in Ohio or Canada or any other adjacent state or province. The Michigan State Police have orders to shoot on sight.

zdawg

03-27-2014, 03:28 PM

Move to Michigan. It's the Anti-Aslan state. He's not even allowed in Ohio or Canada or any other adjacent state or province. The Michigan State Police have orders to shoot on sight.

Now there's an idea :D

Aslan

03-27-2014, 07:16 PM

Just to be sure, there is no entry fee, a participants only costs will be getting to the randomly assigned bowling center and the cost of three games plus his or her share of the practice game. Is this correct? That is correct sir.

Also what about a "traveling rule". Say I was traveling to California - could I bowl with Aslan, Zdwag and MWhite that month? Or does it have to be at my local centers? Maybe I want to travel to KC to bowl with Iceman. Anyone wanting to travel outside of their 90-mile radius to bowl against other BBers is absolutely encouraged to do so. You would just bowl at the center chosen for that pairing...or if the group wanted to meet halfway I could redraw for a halfway point center. No problem.

One more thought - April-September. I think maybe shorten that to April-July or August. Leagues start end of August. Make it a shorter season as a trial run and see how it goes.
I was thinking of shortening to April-August so that we wouldn't have it going on in December (holidays). But I figure it's only a once per MONTH commitment. That shouldn't be that hard to find ONE DAY in a MONTH to meet up for a few games. Plus, I wasn't sure if it would get off the ground in April or not given registration closes mid-April....so I left it till December as a "cushion". We'll see how it goes.

I think 1 more rule - the time / date of bowling has to be submitted 1 week prior to the bowling. That way someone doesn't bowl 6 times at the same center and submit their best scores. Thats already taken care of in 2 ways:
1) The games can't occur until you have the pairing AND the center. So early in the month, it'll get posted, Example:

Mudpuppy/Michigander- Thunderbird Lanes, Clawson, MI
Virtual Opponents: Mudpuppy vs. ZDawg and Michigander vs. Iceman

2) You'd need the other guy (Michigander above example). Thats one of the main points behind making it a "pairing" (when possible)...you'd need to BOTH cheat. I'm not saying that wouldn't happen...but it's less likely when you have a real person there with you that may have a bit more moral "superiority" about those kinds of things.

zdawg

03-27-2014, 07:41 PM

I may be able to recruit one (or more) of the members of my bowling league to participate as well, I figure the more the merrier both in the tournament and bowlingboards.com membership

Aslan

03-28-2014, 12:59 PM

I may be able to recruit one (or more) of the members of my bowling league to participate as well, I figure the more the merrier both in the tournament and bowlingboards.com membership

Please do! Right now, the odds of winning that certificate and sign are pretty good since it's just me, you, and mudpuppy.

I had a feeling this would happen. I thought I was just being overly pessimistic, but when the idea first got floated I thought, "okay...it took like 2 months of back and forth just to get 3 guys in Cali to meet at a lane and bowl...then another month of argueing about videos and scores. What are the odds that we can put together a national tournament, with multiple players, and "virtual" scores and have it succeed? I have a feeling it'll get support early, then nobody will end up signing up, and it'll be a waste of time."

I hate being right all of the time. It gets boring.

mc_runner

03-28-2014, 02:00 PM

I mentioned in the other thread - I'd like to do it but for round 2, or next yr. Between getting married this August and being in 2 other weddings over the next 3 months it's gonna be impossible to squeeze weekend bowling in this summer.

Aslan, just give it a bit of time. I just noticed the thread this morning, might need a little bit until everyone who's interested notices and decides to do it.

bowl1820

03-28-2014, 03:31 PM

The Site Admin. has verified the $25 Gift cert. today. So have fun and good luck with the Tournament.

For anyone wondering, bowlingball.com did offer a $25 Gift Certificate to sweeten the pot for the inaugural event of the tour. We want this to be a fun thing that everyone can be involved in and have a chance at competing. Having handicap is the only way to achieve that.

Mudpuppy

03-28-2014, 05:05 PM

I just want to get this going in any way shape or form - even if we just start Aslan, Zdawg and myself. Let's just get it rolling - it will gain traction like a snowball in an avalanche.

noeymc

03-28-2014, 07:21 PM

sign me up

bowler id is in my sig

174

buckeye lanes spevock's and i guess rebmans ( league )

i think thats everything let me know about the avg thing

also can i bowl on sundays cuz my league is on saturday....

Bunny

03-28-2014, 08:51 PM

Every tournament I've looked at around So Cal and Cali uses 80% of 220.

Aslan

03-29-2014, 11:19 PM

Okay noeymc is now the 4th.

noeymc…I'll use your book average from the site (Bowl.com) unless a new one gets posted there. Rules are rules…even though in this case it benefits you.

MC/Mudpuppy…absolutely…we're going forward with this regardless. But I won't get the games/centers scheduled and it officially started until after 4/9 (per the rules). However, even though we'll start with whatever we get…I'll keep registration open in case it does gain momentum and more people get interested.

noeymc

03-30-2014, 07:56 AM

J Anderson

03-31-2014, 09:52 AM

REGISTRATION IS EASY!!!
STEP 1: Simply post HERE between 3/25 and 4/9 indicating that you would like to participate.
STEP 2: USBC ID number:337-3810
STEP 3: IF you have a USBC ID but no established average on Bowl.com as of yet…you'll need to e-mail me a scan of your league sheet from March 2014 or give me the link to your scoresheet if it's on league secretary or something like that.
STEP 4: List your home city, county, and state (where you reside) and the centers you've played in leagues at (sanctioned and non-sanctioned) during 2013 and 2014. Town of Fairfield, Fairfield county, Connecticut. I bowl at Nutmeg Bowl, Fairfield, CT

Note: bowling in Long Island would be a hardship due to the actual driving distance involved and the tolls. The center in Port Jefferson would be okay since I could take the ferry and walk to the bowling alley.

Mudpuppy

03-31-2014, 09:57 AM

So far then the list is:

California
Aslan
Zdawg

Michigan
Mudpuppy

Ohio
Noeymc

Connecticut
J Anderson

Aslan

03-31-2014, 12:23 PM

The real question is...where are the "big players"? Vdub? Claims to be quite the bowler...yet his name isn't on the list. What about Jamau and Iceman? I wouldn't think they'd shy away from the challenge. MWhite? Is he still licking his wounds from the last tournament? Rob M? There's no restriction against semi-pros joining. What about Bowl1820? The site wants to promote this thing yet it's BBboard sheriff isn't signed up.

And what about the ladies? What about classygranny or Bunny or Sara? Granted, they may just be afraid to give out their information because it would lead to some of the weirdos on this site stalking them....which I can understand...but still. Come on ladies!! Burn those undergarments and REPRESENT the female nation!!

vdubtx

03-31-2014, 12:37 PM

I hadn't signed up as from earlier posts the rule was to bowl with another BB member and there aren't any active members on the board from DFW area. Now that I understand that is not a requirement, sign me up.

STEP 1: Simply post HERE between 3/25 and 4/9 indicating that you would like to participate.
STEP 2: 2243-31130
STEP 3: Current book on USBC is 215
STEP 4: Rockwall, TX and I bowl in Rowlett Bowl-a-Rama and Plano Super Bowl centers in leagues this past season.

Mudpuppy

03-31-2014, 01:13 PM

Updated list:

California
Aslan
Zdawg

Michigan
Mudpuppy

Ohio
Noeymc

Connecticut
J Anderson

Texas
vdubtx

Blacksox1

03-31-2014, 11:05 PM

I like the idea of the tour. The summer months are not good for me. Maybe season 2 ! Good luck bowlers !

classygranny

04-01-2014, 01:30 AM

And what about the ladies? What about classygranny or Bunny or Sara? Granted, they may just be afraid to give out their information because it would lead to some of the weirdos on this site stalking them....which I can understand...but still. Come on ladies!! Burn those undergarments and REPRESENT the female nation!!

I'm still thinking about it. I'm a bit leery of the 45 mi radius, as it could take me into some shady areas you won't find me going alone (even if I'm packing) - sorry. So I haven't decided if I want to take the chance of being eliminated one month due to the travel/area restrictions. Also, that 45 mi radius could mean up to an hour and half travel time, plus gas. Still wondering if I want to do it.

Also, did you say it could be bowled on Sunday, if Saturdays were not a good day? A lot of Saturdays we either babysit or go to ball games. Sundays would most likely be the better day for me.

Aslan

04-01-2014, 02:51 AM

I'm still thinking about it. I'm a bit leery of the 45 mi radius, as it could take me into some shady areas you won't find me going alone (even if I'm packing) - sorry. So I haven't decided if I want to take the chance of being eliminated one month due to the travel/area restrictions. Also, that 45 mi radius could mean up to an hour and half travel time, plus gas. Still wondering if I want to do it.

As I've said before, the center can be negotiated if there's a safety issue. The idea is to get people out of their usual house…but not make them bowl in some dingy garage in a ghetto.

Also, did you say it could be bowled on Sunday, if Saturdays were not a good day? A lot of Saturdays we either babysit or go to ball games. Sundays would most likely be the better day for me.

This was a miscommunication…you have an entire month to schedule your series….there is absolutely no requirement to bowl it on a Saturday. If you're in an area where you'll bowl with another member, it'll just be a matter of arranging that with the other party(s). If you're bowling solo (due to location), you can bowl any day you want, any time you want.

Stormed1

04-01-2014, 04:07 AM

I will post my member # TOMORROW 9it's in my wallet in the car)
current average 171
Home centers Lynwood Bowl and Olympia lanes
Located in South Holland Il

Mudpuppy

04-01-2014, 09:46 AM

I like the idea of the tour. The summer months are not good for me. Maybe season 2 ! Good luck bowlers !

You have to be able to bowl 3 games in the span of 1 month - come on man do it. It will be more fun with more people and during the summer months keep you primed for the fall. You can bowl any day any time. We need FLORIDA ON BOARD!

Mudpuppy

04-01-2014, 09:47 AM

Mudpuppy

04-01-2014, 02:30 PM

Things to remember:

It's FREE - just pay your bowling fees at the alley like you would for any open bowling / practice
It's FUN - compete against your fellow BB friends (and Aslan)
It's FAIR - handicapped brackets make it a fair competition for bowlers of any skill level - you don't need to be a high roller

We currently have 5 states represented out of 50. Do your state proud and join in to show which state has the best bowlers. Right now Aslan has a 1 in 6 chance of winning - the more people who join decrease his chances of victory. Do it for your pride, your state pride and most of all do it to defeat Aslan. If he wins this one we will never hear the end of it. It's 1 hour per month doing what you are already doing and love to do. You can't find entertainment this cheap anywhere.

Aslan

04-01-2014, 04:32 PM

Mudpuppy

04-01-2014, 04:35 PM

If Iceman does NOT stop his temper tantrum and step up to represent Missouri....then Missouri (and Iceman) are DEAD TO ME!! Come on Ice!!

Irony...if Iceman bowls a 300 during the Tour and then is forced to tell us about it. DOHT!!!

I agree - Iceman needs to step up! Whatever is going on put some duct tape on it and walk it off. Otherwise DEAD TO ME as well.

tccstudent

04-01-2014, 11:46 PM

Lets get an OKIE in on the mix

Register me
for last year I only bowled in one house this year I am bowling in 4 house
1 league at Broken Arrow Lanes Broken Arrow OK
1 league at AMF Sheridan Lanes Tulsa OK
1 Travel League that goes to: AMF Sheridan Lanes,Broken Arrow Lanes, Sahoma Lanes (Sapulpa OK),The Lanes of Coffee Creek(Owasso OK)

Last years average 186 as posted on bowl.com
my USBC ID is in my signiture

Aslan

04-02-2014, 01:18 PM

Oooo...and TCC is IN!!

Some young talent!

It would be cool if we had all 50 states represented...but some states are stupid and don't have enough people to field even 1 player/BBer....so thats a pipe dream.

Mudpuppy

04-02-2014, 04:58 PM

Updated list:

California
Aslan
Zdawg

Michigan
Mudpuppy

Ohio
Noeymc

Connecticut
J Anderson

Texas
vdubtx

Oklahoma
tccstudent

classygranny

04-02-2014, 10:34 PM

Ok, I'm in...but, I'm going to state up front that I will not be inclined to travel as far as noted on most occasions (and especially into some areas). I currently travel 30 miles to bowl one of my leagues, but I can usually combine some work related meetings to justify the one hour drive time. So, if someone is going to have an issue with this - let them speak up now, and I will drop out.

If I'm still in: representing Scottsdale, AZ
USBC #2786-23048
2012-2013 Hi avg = 180 Comp avg = 176
Currently bowl at Brunswick Zone Via Linda, and Brunswick Zone Glendale

noeymc

04-03-2014, 08:42 AM

Mike White

04-03-2014, 01:26 PM

STEP 1: I would like to participate because its the only way for me to win
STEP 2: USBC #1560-11073
STEP 3: My current leagues either have less than 21 games, or average less than book.
STEP 4: Riverside CA, two leagues at Arlington, one just recently took over a spot, and the other has 80+ games in.

I only have Saturdays off, and since I bowl Friday night league, Saturday mornings are for SLEEP, so scheduling will likely be difficult.

I've dropped my equipment weight to 14 lbs in an attempt to avoid elbow damage. So I expect my average will climb well above 190's.

Mudpuppy

04-03-2014, 04:27 PM

Now we are talking. Thanks for joining MWhite and classygranny. I am good with you bowling wherever granny. Aslan - emailing you league sheet 1 of 2 here shortly (as soon as I find your email address).

Updated list:

California
Aslan
Zdawg
Mike White

Michigan
Mudpuppy

Ohio
Noeymc

Connecticut
J Anderson

Texas
vdubtx

Oklahoma
tccstudent

Arizona
classygranny

tr33frog

04-03-2014, 05:33 PM

I've been kind of waiting to see if anyone else from KC was going to sign up, hmmm.

classygranny

04-03-2014, 07:01 PM

dang granny u dont have any bowling allys around u other then bz =D i am ok with you bowling just post another lane near u that ur whiling to drive to

Actually there aren't that many BZ near me. There are lots of AMFs. As far as I know there are only two independents; Let It Roll, which I would do, and Lucky Strike, which I would not do. There are lots to choose from; AMF Scottsdale could be tough because they are only open mostly for leagues and afterward, but the Tempe Village, Desert Hills, Chris Town, Deer Valley, Union Hills are ok. I would have to check the area for the ones in Mesa/Chandler, and the BZ-Gilbert as I am not sure exactly where they are. Avondale is a very long drive for me but if it comes up in the draw, I would consider it depending on what month and what is going on in the area. I think that gives me more choices than some people are going to have.

Mudpuppy

04-04-2014, 09:51 AM

I've been kind of waiting to see if anyone else from KC was going to sign up, hmmm.

Don't wait. Just get in on the ground floor. Do it. We need representation from MO.

tr33frog

04-04-2014, 10:40 AM

Don't wait. Just get in on the ground floor. Do it. We need representation from MO.

Well I'm on the KS side, lol.

STEP 1: Why not...
STEP 2: USBC ID number: Don't have one
STEP 3: I can send a copy anytime you want, avg last week was 212.
STEP 4: Olathe, KS Only lanes I've bowled at are College Lanes in Overland Park. I refuse to bowl at incredibowl, last two times I've bowled there I had to throw my ball half way down the lane to keep it from going into the gutter, no oil there at all.

Aslan

04-04-2014, 03:22 PM

I've been kind of waiting to see if anyone else from KC was going to sign up, hmmm.

And thats sort of what I'm worried about. I'm worried that people are waiting to sign up to see if other people from their areas join...not because it would ENCOURAGE them because they'd get to bowl with a fellow BBer and make friends...but they want to be the only bowler in their area so they can bowl alone and use the honor system....possibly dishonorably.

From the start...I've said the number one (with a bullet) problem with this idea is it encourages cheating. I'm not saying anybody would in particular...nor that having another person there would necessarilty stop it...I'm just saying if it was ME...I'd WANT to bowl with a fellow BBer:

1) You get to be friendly and meet new people, put a face with a username.
2) If anyone claims your scores are BS....you got a witness.

But thats just me.

Aslan

04-04-2014, 03:48 PM

So I haven't decided if I want to take the chance of being eliminated one month due to the travel/area restrictions.
Let me clarify since this seems to be an early sticking point (see responses below)

I'm still thinking about it. I'm a bit leery of the 45 mi radius, as it could take me into some shady areas you won't find me going alone (even if I'm packing) - sorry. Also, that 45 mi radius could mean up to an hour and half travel time, plus gas. Still wondering if I want to do it.

Valid reasons to ask for a re-draw of your designated center are "safety concerns" and excessive distance (> 90 miles). However...I will do my absolute best to work with people and try to get that designated center as close to you as possible to encourage your participation.

Actually there aren't that many BZ near me. There are lots of AMFs. As far as I know there are only two independents; Let It Roll, which I would do, and Lucky Strike, which I would not do.

I refuse to bowl at incredibowl, last two times I've bowled there I had to throw my ball half way down the lane to keep it from going into the gutter, no oil there at all.

Examples of an invalid reasons. Unless there's a safety reason or distance reason. Just "not liking a center" isn't a valid reason.

Trust me...there are certain centers in California that I KNOW I will bowl poorly at...or that are annoying for a host of other reasons. MWhite probably will drop out if we draw Temecula Lanes. Both of the nearest AMF houses have conditions so slick I might as well just close my eyes and hope/pray. But just letting people bowl where their comfortable defeats the purpose of the tournament atmosphere. We want to imitate you having to go to a center you're not familiar with and adapting to it. Thats what happens in a tournament If everyone just bowls in their home center...we could just submit scoresheets from our leagues each week...saves a lot of hassle. But then it's not a "tour".

I am commited to doing my best to make sure you a draw a center that is safe and very close to where you live. In many cases it WILL be a place you've played before or even currently play in a league. But I can't guarantee it'll be a place you "like" or bowl well in. But lets try it out for a month and see how it goes? We'll iron out the kinks as we go along. There's an alley near LA that I swore I would never bowl at cuz it's one of those "fancy joints" with gourmet food and like 4 lanes. There's also an alley in a student commons building of a university. Those are not "ideal tour stops"...but hey, if it comes up and it's safe...I guess I gotta suck it up. Think of it as an adventure...a challenge...an opportunity.

Tour begins in less than a week! I'll probably put out the averages, handicap, pairings and locations a week from today; try to give everyone as much time as possible to figure out a date they want to do it (can be ANY day that month).

Mudpuppy

04-04-2014, 04:11 PM

Sorry Frog - I assumed KC, MO - I didn't realize (or know) there was KC, KS as well. Never been to that area not familiar.

Updated list:

California
Aslan
Zdawg
Mike White

Michigan
Mudpuppy

Ohio
Noeymc

Connecticut
J Anderson

Texas
vdubtx

Oklahoma
tccstudent

Arizona
classygranny

Kansas
tr33frog

Mudpuppy

04-04-2014, 04:12 PM

What method are you using to draw random alleys? Do you number them and then use random.org or something?

tccstudent

04-04-2014, 04:18 PM

Sorry Frog - I assumed KC, MO - I didn't realize (or know) there was KC, KS as well. Never been to that area not familiar.

Kansas
tr33frog
There aint that much different KC is just located right on the state line so it is actually in two states. I can understand not wanting to be associated with the state of Misery sometimes called Missouri

Aslan

04-04-2014, 04:25 PM

Updated list:

California
Aslan
Zdawg
Mike White

Michigan
Mudpuppy

Ohio
Noeymc

Connecticut
J Anderson

Texas
vdubtx

Oklahoma
tccstudent

Arizona
classygranny

So far, it looks like California is the only multi-person state. What I'd "like" to do since we only have 3...if nobody else joins to give us an even number....is try to get all 3 of us together rather than pair 2 and then have someone bowl solo. If we can't fit that in logistically, then so be it. But it WOULD be nice if all 3 of us could get together once a month to do it.

Since it's THREE of us...I'd only draw centers in a 90-mile radius of ALL THREE OF US...so that cuts down on the number of centers. What I'll probably do is something that looks like this (for odd numbers from states, 3, 5, etc...):

WEEK 1 PAIRINGS (this is not official, only a hypothetical test)

noeymc vs vdub
classygranny vs MWhite
JAnderson vs Mudpuppy
Aslan vs zdawg
tccstudent vs BLIND

For California Trio:
If zdawg joins Aslan/MWhite: Designated Center = Temecula Lanes, Temecula CA
OR
Aslan/MWhite: Designated Center = Temecula Lanes, Temecula CA
zDawg: Designated Center = Brusnwick Cal Oaks Bowl, Murrieta CA

So in the example above, Mike and I draw Temecula (which would make Mike mad). zDawg would be encouraged to join us there and make it a trio. But if he CAN'T...his designated center is Cal Oaks Bowl.

And, even though Mike and I are paired up physically to meet...my "virtial opponent" for the sake of points is zDawg where as Mike's virtual opponent is classygranny.

Lets look at a differnt example:
For California Trio:
If Aslan/MWhite join zDawg: Designated Center = Brunswick Cal Oaks Bowl, Murrieta CA
OR
Aslan/MWhite: Designated Center = Del Rosa Lanes, San Bernadino CA
zDawg: Designated Center = Brusnwick Cal Oaks Bowl, Murrieta CA

In this example, Mike and I draw a center that is outside of the 90-mile radius from zDawg so if all 3 of us meet, we would use zDawg's designated center. If that is the draw, and Mike objects to San Bernadino for safety concerns, and we re-draw "La Habra 300"...same thing would apply because La Habra is outside z-Dawg's 90-mile radius.

ALSO: IMPORTANT NOTE!!!

As you can see in the example above...IF we have an ODD number of bowlers (rather than just odd bowlers)...one person faces a "BLIND" opponent for the sake of getting their points. That "BLIND" bowler will be an average of every participant's averages and handicaps . So, lets say the average "average" is 165 and average is handicap is 50 pins...in the above example, tcc student will face 215 handicap each game. HOWEVER...so the bowler doesn't know the score they need to beat (that would be an unfair advantage)....it'll be based on the average of all other bowlers THAT MONTH....and average handicap THAT MONTH....so tccstudent won't know the score he needs to beat or the "average handicap" until everyone's scores are submitted. The person bowling against a "BLIND" is encouraged to bowl earlier in the month rather than wait until everyone reports their scores. NOT included in the calculation of "BLIND" are those participants that forfeited that month. So, example, if classygranny forfeits in April, MWhite automatically gets 4 points. However, the BLIND average doesn't use the 3 "zeroes" in it's calculation..only scores actually bowled that month.

Aslan

04-04-2014, 04:41 PM

What method are you using to draw random alleys? Do you number them and then use random.org or something?

Exactly right.

I'll use the local USBC center list. If there isn't one (which would be rare), I'll use google or mapquest or something. I then figue out the 90-mile radius...number each center, then use a random number generator so if there's 10 centers...I use a random number generator setting it 1-10, press "enter", it spits out a number. Thats what I did when I set up the originally proposed California Tour.

Some areas it won't be an issue because there's only maybe 3 centers within 90 miles. And like I stated...if someone draws one that is 89 miles away, they certainly could ask for a re-draw based on excessive distance. Anything over 45 miles I'd certainly be willing to re-draw if it's a person bowling solo. For me, zDawg, and Mike...it's a little harder because the area between Anaheim, Riverside, and San Diego is kinda just mountains and desert. So to find a place within 45 miles of all three of us is more difficult. So when we had our Invitational Tournament...that center was about 55 miles from me, 53 miles from Mike, and about 58 miles away from zDawg. If it was just me versus Mike...there are probably 40 centers within 45 miles of us...but the vast majority are 100 or more miles away from zDawg since he's 1.5-2 hours south in San Diego.

Mike White

04-04-2014, 05:09 PM

1st off the rule about a warm up game is rather absurd.

Simply make it 1 game per person.

3 frames with 3 people is unfair when you consider 1 person alone is allowed a whole game.

Some bodies take a bit longer to loosen up.

As for eligible bowling centers, if a center doesn't have 6 leagues total, they aren't interested in attracting bowlers other than pure recreational. There is no reason to reward them with our business.

As for Radius, 45 miles one way is plenty. If that means we don't have overlap, then a person is on their honor to produce scores.

As for Blinds, having to beat their average minus 10 pins has worked for many years, no reason to complicate it.

As for "encouraged to bowl early" might be your intent, the rules as stated discourage a bowler from bowling early so they can gauge what kind of scores are needed.

Aslan

04-04-2014, 06:32 PM

1st off the rule about a warm up game is rather absurd.

Simply make it 1 game per person.

3 frames with 3 people is unfair when you consider 1 person alone is allowed a whole game.

Some bodies take a bit longer to loosen up.

I have no problem with that unless there are any objections. The reason I wanted to limit it to 1 practice game per PAIR is I don't want people bowling 8 games and claiming the 1st 5 were "practice". If you make it 5 frames per pair, then it's harder to fiddle with the numbers.

As for eligible bowling centers, if a center doesn't have 6 leagues total, they aren't interested in attracting bowlers other than pure recreational. There is no reason to reward them with our business.
Understood. But if it's a USBC center, I'll use them as the authority on it. Granted the USBC has lost most of it's authority as the sport has declined, but there has to be an unbiased standard and a center listed by the USBC seems like a fair standard, regardless of whether they have 2 leagues a night or 1 league a night.

As for Radius, 45 miles one way is plenty. If that means we don't have overlap, then a person is on their honor to produce scores.
It likely won't be an issue for anywhere except California because none of the other states have multiple bowlers. I still contend there's an advantage to meeting up with other BB members that is worth the extra 10-20 minutes.

As for Blinds, having to beat their average minus 10 pins has worked for many years, no reason to complicate it.
In this case there is no "they"...it's an open spot. Hopefully we'll have an even number of participants and it won't matter....but one person bowls an open spot...so they would simply bowl the averages of the other bowlers that week. Now if you mean in the case a person doesn't show up and forfeits...then actually I agree...we should make them bowl against that persons average/handicap -10...unless anyone has an objection?

As for "encouraged to bowl early" might be your intent, the rules as stated discourage a bowler from bowling early so they can gauge what kind of scores are needed.
That was my attempt at appealing to people's good nature. If said appeal doesn't work, I can always change the posting of scores to be a private PM only so the bowler bowling a BLIND won't know. But again, it only comes to that if we have an odd number of participants.

Mike White

04-04-2014, 08:42 PM

In this case there is no "they"...it's an open spot. Hopefully we'll have an even number of participants and it won't matter....but one person bowls an open spot...so they would simply bowl the averages of the other bowlers that week. Now if you mean in the case a person doesn't show up and forfeits...then actually I agree...we should make them bowl against that persons average/handicap -10...unless anyone has an objection?

You should treat a bye like an opponent that couldn't bowl that month.

The person bowling would need to beat their own average - 11 pins to be awarded a game point, and -31 for a series point.

The idea is if you average 170, and have either a bye, or an absent opponent, then you must shoot 160 scratch or above to earn a game point, and 480 scratch or above to be awarded a series point.

Saying they have to beat their average -10 is not exactly correct.

But it's the wording that is used frequently.

vdubtx

04-04-2014, 10:48 PM

You should treat a bye like an opponent that couldn't bowl that month.

The person bowling would need to beat their own average - 11 pins to be awarded a game point, and -31 for a series point.

The idea is if you average 170, and have either a bye, or an absent opponent, then you must shoot 160 scratch or above to earn a game point, and 480 scratch or above to be awarded a series point.

Saying they have to beat their average -10 is not exactly correct.

But it's the wording that is used frequently.

Agree with Mike on this. In leagues that I have been in, you still have to shoot a certain number of pins to win the points if bowling a bye team.

noeymc

04-05-2014, 12:14 AM

agree with mwhite on the byes fair enough

Mike White

04-06-2014, 04:25 PM

Understood. But if it's a USBC center, I'll use them as the authority on it. Granted the USBC has lost most of it's authority as the sport has declined, but there has to be an unbiased standard and a center listed by the USBC seems like a fair standard, regardless of whether they have 2 leagues a night or 1 league a night.

Ok so it's luck of the draw if we happen to be assigned to a bar with a couple of lanes attached, and our opponent is assigned to a center that is well maintained.

It likely won't be an issue for anywhere except California because none of the other states have multiple bowlers. I still contend there's an advantage to meeting up with other BB members that is worth the extra 10-20 minutes.

You're thinking way too short sighted. An issue is an issue regardless of how many people it effects right now.

You claim there is an advantage to meeting up, but you don't state what that advantage might be, so we can't weigh if it's really worth the extra 10-20 minutes.
I'm not clear how a 90 mile radius is only 10-20 minutes longer than a 45 mile radius.

ZDawg's lanes should be selected for him independent of my location, just as someone in Wisconsin lane selection is independent of the location of someone else in Florida.

My issue is, there are plenty of lanes to my west, and north, but the only lanes that might overlap with ZDawg are going to be those few to my south.

J Anderson

04-06-2014, 06:53 PM

Ok so it's luck of the draw if we happen to be assigned to a bar with a couple of lanes attached, and our opponent is assigned to a center that is well maintained.

You're thinking way too short sighted. An issue is an issue regardless of how many people it effects right now.

You claim there is an advantage to meeting up, but you don't state what that advantage might be, so we can't weigh if it's really worth the extra 10-20 minutes.
I'm not clear how a 90 mile radius is only 10-20 minutes longer than a 45 mile radius.

ZDawg's lanes should be selected for him independent of my location, just as someone in Wisconsin lane selection is independent of the location of someone else in Florida.

My issue is, there are plenty of lanes to my west, and north, but the only lanes that might overlap with ZDawg are going to be those few to my south.

I wish there were someone else from CT or NY entered so I could be arguing about how unfair the the proposed competition site is.;)

tccstudent

04-06-2014, 07:02 PM

You claim there is an advantage to meeting up, but you don't state what that advantage might be, so we can't weigh if it's really worth the extra 10-20 minutes.
I'm not clear how a 90 mile radius is only 10-20 minutes longer than a 45 mile radius..

This all depends on how fast you drive. By Aslan stating that he can drive 45 miles in 10 to 20 minutes we can assume that he may have very few points left on his license

Mike White

04-06-2014, 08:03 PM

I wish there were someone else from CT or NY entered so I could be arguing about how unfair the the proposed competition site is.;)

It's not about "fair" it's just that I can sense Aslan going out of his way to send me back to Temecula.

Aslan

04-07-2014, 02:25 PM

Agree with Mike on this. In leagues that I have been in, you still have to shoot a certain number of pins to win the points if bowling a bye team.

agree with mwhite on the byes fair enough
Correct. In this tour, you must outbowl the average of all bowlers that week. And it only matters if we have an open spot (odd number of teams).

Ok so it's luck of the draw if we happen to be assigned to a bar with a couple of lanes attached, and our opponent is assigned to a center that is well maintained.
And vice versa.

P.S....as I stated like 2-3 times...it has to be a USBC sanctioned center. So no, 2 lanes in a guy's backyard wouldn't be viable. If your beef is with the USBC sanctioning 2 lanes in a bar, go to Bowl.com and write them a stern letter. And add at the bottom that if AMF/Bowlmor is going to continue to not respond to emails sent through their stupid coporate site...all AMF houses should lose USBC sanctioning. As if Bowlmor wasn't annoying enough, they've now ruined AMF in the process. <---mini rant.

You claim there is an advantage to meeting up, but you don't state what that advantage might be, so we can't weigh if it's really worth the extra 10-20 minutes.
I'm not clear how a 90 mile radius is only 10-20 minutes longer than a 45 mile radius.

ZDawg's lanes should be selected for him independent of my location, just as someone in Wisconsin lane selection is independent of the location of someone else in Florida.

My issue is, there are plenty of lanes to my west, and north, but the only lanes that might overlap with ZDawg are going to be those few to my south.

1) The advantage is friendship and comrodory. Even though we have to put up with you whining like a little girl...zdawg and I still enjoy your company and occasional bouts of wisdom.
2) Even though everyone wants to whine about what center they have to drive to (before any have even been drawn); I will state for like the 5th time...if excessive distance is a problem...with the center you are eventually drawn...that is a VIABLE REASON to ask for a re-draw.

3) I am only pairing up ONE pair for California. The 3rd person will have the OPTION of joining the pair or bowling solo at the location designated. In the example, if you and I are paired and selected to bowl in La Habra...that is where we bowl...UNLESS...we want to join zDawg in Murrieta. If you and I draw Temecula, and zDawg draws Murrieta....he "can" bowl in Murrieta...or maybe he wants to join us in Temecula....or maybe you whine so much about the Temecula draw that we agree to join him in Murrieta. OR...maybe ZDawg draws an alley in San Diego and we draw Arlington. ZDawg would have the OPTION of joining us...but we're obviously not going all the way to San Diego to join him.

Actually, having more than two people in a state gives us a "slight" advantage because if we all choose to bowl together, we have a choice of 2 lanes. Most people don't get a choice (unless there's a valid problem with the one chosen for them).

And no...I DON'T want to draw Temecula...because I'm trying to beat you on a lane that you won't have some nonsense excuse about...although I'm pretty sure you'll come up with one regardless. But thus far, drawing AMF Riverside, Temecula Lanes, or Concourse will give you an automatic excuse...so I'm crossing my fingers that the number generator doesn't pick those. At this point, I'd rather it pick Arlington...because you'd be hard pressed to find an excuse of how I beat you in your own house...you'll probably blame an injury or the 10-pin home house penalty. ; /

noeymc

04-08-2014, 01:57 AM

vdubtx

04-08-2014, 10:53 AM

why not beat your self why use everyones avgs and add it together if we got two people 150-160 and 2 at 180 220 the 180 and 220 bowler should be ok but the 150 160 might lose so do it beat your self exp:

200 avg bowler must bowl a 190 or better to get the point and must shoot a 570 or better to win series just like every league in the world does

but change series to like 580 or 590

Not sure what you were rambling about :p.

Bowling against a bye team is typically based on your own average, not averages of anyone else. You typically have to bowl within 10-20 pins of average depending on whatever rules the league adopt.

noeymc

04-08-2014, 11:10 AM

Mudpuppy

04-08-2014, 11:14 AM

Aslan I emailed you my second league sheet today - not sure if you know but you can hit reply and confirm you got it or post on here that you got it.

On the weeks that you bowl against a blind - I was waiting for this to happen - it should be -10. The other way of combining averages, etc. doesn't make any sense - why is it that everyone bowls against 1 person but then the odd man (or girl) out has to defeat EVERYONE? That's taking it to the opposite extreme. -10 and call it good. The draw is random so if there is an advantage to bowling the blind it will be random luck then. Or another idea is to have the person that bowls the blind - instead of a blind have them bowl against another opponent who is already bowling against someone else but as a 1 way competition. i.e.

Mudpuppy v Aslan

That is an example 1st week pairing.

Zdawg v Blind

So Zdawg is randomly paired up against Aslan.

So Mudpuppy's scores are against Aslan's scores and a winner of each game and series is determined.
Zdawg is bowling against Aslan's scores but Aslan is only bowling v Mudpuppy's scores.

Understand?

Aslan

04-08-2014, 12:03 PM

Aslan I emailed you my second league sheet today - not sure if you know but you can hit reply and confirm you got it or post on here that you got it.
I got it. I think. I'm not going to mess with it till Thursday night.

- why is it that everyone bowls against 1 person but then the odd man (or girl) out has to defeat EVERYONE? That's taking it to the opposite extreme. -10 and call it good.
It won't matter since we'll likely have an even number of teams...but the thought process behind it is the persons ISN'T bowling against EVERYBODY. It's not cumulative pinfall. It's against the overall average of every bowler. The reasoning is, if you just bowl against yourself...higher average bowlers get penalized while lower average bowlers get a huge advantage. Example; Lets say VDub is bowling against the BLIND spot and his average is 210. The average of ALL bowlers that week (including VDub's scores) were 180 (+ average handicap of 18 pins). If Vdub bowls a 180-191-215 = 591. Using his average minus 10 he gets 1 of the 4 points. Meanwhile, lets say ZDawg has an average of 140 and is playing MWhite who has an average of 191. ZDawg scores 140-138-129 = 407; 198-206-187 = 591. If MWhite bowls a 129-179-199 = 507. So ZDawg gets the same score as VDub (591 handicap)...yet takes 3 out of 4 points....even though ZDawg didn't bowl particularly well nor did VDub bowl particularly bad.

But like I said, it won't matter that much since we are likely to have an even number of teams and if we don't, given the short season, people will only bowl against the BLIND at MOST once.

The draw is random so if there is an advantage to bowling the blind it will be random luck then.
The draw will be random, however you won't have to bowl the same person (or BLIND spot) twice. I figure thats more fair than drawing the same person 3 times.

Like I said, it's a "composite average" of all bowlers that week. I feel thats more fair to the higher average guys than making them bowl against themselves. The 199+ average bowlers are already getting penalized by the handicap; no reason to punish them twice. Thats my thought process anyway.

ETA: Yes, I accidentally calculated the average/handicap wrong in the above example. It should have been (220-210) * .9 = 9 handicap for VDub. I calculated it (.9 * 220) = 198 so VDub got 0 handicap. I'll get it right come tourney time.

Aslan

04-08-2014, 12:22 PM

Just so everyone is clear on how I'm going to get your averages:

1) I will use your USBC ID# and look up your MOST RECENT LEAGUE AVERAGE. If you have multiple leagues listed for the same time period, I will use a composite of however many averages there are.

NOTE: IF YOU BOWL IN A SPORT LEAGUE....PLEASE let me know so I can adjust your average accordingly using the USBC chart.

2) If I check and your data on the USBC (Bowl.com) is not there, I will use a scoresheet from the week of 3/31-4/6 (most recent week preceeding). If you bowl in more than one league, you're on the honor system about sending all of the scoresheets to me so I can do a composite...but as long as I have ONE, we can at least get started.

NOTE: AGAIN, if one of the leagues is a SPORT LEAGUE....let me know so I can properly adjust the average.

This is important because, take ME for example...I just checked Bowl.com and my average from last season isn't uploaded yet. So, since it's not there....I'd go with last weeks scoresheet. Now, for me, thats not AS big of a deal since the league that started last week uses carryover averages...but some leagues DO NOT. Had this league decided to re-establish in week 1...I'd have a 148 average rather than a 165-166 (because I didn't bowl very well last week; week 1).

It's up to everyone to KNOW the above items and make sure they have an average listed on Bowl.com...because if they don't, they need to get me last week's scoresheet(s). I know everyone is chomping at the bit to get started so I don't want a ton of delay waiting for this person or that person to verify averages.

ALSO...the plan was; Lets say my average is 151. THAT is your average for the first month and what your starting handicap is based on. However, after month #1 (first round); your average going into May would be calculated (assuming in this example I bowl a 148-148-147 in month 1) = [151+151+151+148+148+147]/6 = 149. I'm not sure if thats how carryover is usually done so give me input if you have an issue with establishing your TOUR AVERAGE using your starting average and then adjusting it based on how you play as we go along (but always counting that starting average in the calculation). So going into June; assuming I bowl 3 160s in May, it would be [151+151+151+148+148+147+160+160+160]/9 = 153. The thought process is that by always counting that starting average in the calculation, even though it's effect lessons over time, it keeps the bowler somewhat grounded in case in the first couple weeks they have really weird outings (good or bad).

vdubtx

04-08-2014, 12:25 PM

It won't matter since we'll likely have an even number of teams...but the thought process behind it is the persons ISN'T bowling against EVERYBODY. It's not cumulative pinfall. It's against the overall average of every bowler. The reasoning is, if you just bowl against yourself...higher average bowlers get penalized while lower average bowlers get a huge advantage. Example; Lets say VDub is bowling against the BLIND spot and his average is 210. The average of ALL bowlers that week (including VDub's scores) were 180 (+ average handicap of 18 pins). If Vdub bowls a 180-191-215 = 591. Using his average minus 10 he gets 1 of the 4 points. Meanwhile, lets say ZDawg has an average of 140 and is playing MWhite who has an average of 191. ZDawg scores 140-138-129 = 407; 198-206-187 = 591. If MWhite bowls a 129-179-199 = 507. So ZDawg gets the same score as VDub (591 handicap)...yet takes 3 out of 4 points....even though ZDawg didn't bowl particularly well nor did VDub bowl particularly bad.

But like I said, it won't matter that much since we are likely to have an even number of teams and if we don't, given the short season, people will only bowl against the BLIND at MOST once.

Over complicating things is all it does. Use the typical rule of -10 for a bowler against a bye and leave it at that. :cool:

Aslan

04-08-2014, 12:29 PM

Over complicating things is all it does. Use the typical rule of -10 for a bowler against a bye and leave it at that. :cool:

You have to realize, every rule, no matter how complicated, is designed to ensure MWhite can't have an excuse for losing. :D

tccstudent

04-08-2014, 02:21 PM

NOTE: IF YOU BOWL IN A SPORT LEAGUE....PLEASE let me know so I can adjust your average accordingly using the USBC chart.

ALSO...the plan was; Lets say my average is 151. THAT is your average for the first month and what your starting handicap is based on. However, after month #1 (first round); your average going into May would be calculated (assuming in this example I bowl a 148-148-147 in month 1) = [151+151+151+148+148+147]/6 = 149. I'm not sure if thats how carryover is usually done so give me input if you have an issue with establishing your TOUR AVERAGE using your starting average and then adjusting it based on how you play as we go along (but always counting that starting average in the calculation). So going into June; assuming I bowl 3 160s in May, it would be [151+151+151+148+148+147+160+160+160]/9 = 153. The thought process is that by always counting that starting average in the calculation, even though it's effect lessons over time, it keeps the bowler somewhat grounded in case in the first couple weeks they have really weird outings (good or bad).

When you look up mine this seasons are not yet showing up but for last years it should be obvious which league was a sport shot since the name of the league was PBA Experience so you should probably just take the other one. If you want to use this years average two of my three leagues update online one to bowl.com league standing and the league # is 19190 the other can be found on league secretary.com broken arrow lanes broken arrow OK league name Ultimate league http://www.leaguesecretary.com/bowling-alleys/oklahoma/broken-arrow/broken-arrow-lanes/bowling-leagues/ultimate/55934/leaguefilesstandings.aspx

as far as the running total use the posted average to figure the handicap for the first month then after that only use the scores from the virtual tour.

Mike White

04-08-2014, 02:22 PM

Not sure what you were rambling about :p.

Bowling against a bye team is typically based on your own average, not averages of anyone else. You typically have to bowl within 10-20 pins of average depending on whatever rules the league adopt.

Aslan lacks experience, so he feels he needs to re-invent the wheel in every situation.

The more complex the "solution" the harder it is to identify how it may be unfair.

Down the road, it may be clear, but by then, it's too late to fix it properly.

Mudpuppy

04-08-2014, 02:33 PM

Mudpuppy

04-08-2014, 03:16 PM

I am going to start an information thread and this (moderator?) can become the "discussion" thread. Too much clutter you are going to confuse people. Also need a sign up thread.

Aslan

04-08-2014, 06:57 PM

Aslan lacks experience, so he feels he needs to re-invent the wheel in every situation.

The more complex the "solution" the harder it is to identify how it may be unfair.

Down the road, it may be clear, but by then, it's too late to fix it properly.

Mikes just mad because last night in his league he shot a 135. Most likely because his house decided to randomly oil a reverse block. I hope every house in Orange and Riverside Counties doesn't decide to oil reverse block patterns....otherwise I'll never hear the end of it. :cool:

And I'm not "re-inventing" anything. I'm just trying to make it as fair as possible for everyone. Bowlers are about the most stubborn athletes on the planet. Last week the league secretary almost got booed off the stage for suggesting if a team has a vacant bowler, the vacant bowler would bowl the lowest score on the opposing team for that night minus 10. She had a REASON for proposing it...because teams weren't doing their part to fill their rosters...and were having ghost bowlers with decent averages and handicaps beating people. But she had to talk over immense booing for like 10 minutes before the league kinda stopped and went, "wait...whats the rule change? Oh....that sounds reasonable....okay."

So while I'm not "re-inventing the sport"....just keep an open mind. We're trying something that has not really been tried...and there are GOING TO BE KINKS as we move forward. But if we can just all kinda "chill"...this might turn out to be something really fun. Lets try it this way....if ya hate it...we'll change it for next season. I just don't want a person bowling against BLIND to whine like a little girly girl when they bowl well enough to beat any other player but since they had to play themselves that week lost 3 out of 4 points....and that CAN happen.

AND...if we DO find this to be fun...and want to do it again next year...I'll probably propose to hand off the torch to Mudpuppy for next season...to keep it from becoming "Aslan's Virtual Tour" and make it "BowlingBoard.com Virtual Tour". And then Mudpuppy can add his own "splash of genius" to the event.

2-3 more days!! Thursday night I'll get everything together, draw centers, draw pairings, and we'll see where we're at. Hopefully by this weekend...people can start scheduling in bowling if they wish.

QUESTION: Should we post the scores HERE....or should they be sent to me via email and then once they're all in; disclosed. My "worry" is that if we post them on HERE...whoever bowls 2nd will have a slight advantage knowing what the other person bowled. If we have them e-mailed to me instead....I could try and bowl earlier in the month...and then nobody will know the scores of the person paired against them. Is everyone on board with that??

My e-mail: aslan_supreme@yahoo.com

Mike White

04-08-2014, 07:00 PM

The old bait and switch. I think consensus is -10 and call it good.

Using Aslan's example where all the games one month average 180.

(220 - 180) * 0.9 = 36, 180 + 36 = 216.

For someone with a 215 average facing a bye or absent competitor.

(220 - 215) * 0.9 = 4, 216 - 4 = 212.

215 bowler needs to match or beat a score 3 pins under their average to be awarded a point.

For someone with a 140 average facing a bye or absent competitor under the same conditions.

(220 - 140) * 0.9 = 72, 216 - 72 = 144.

140 bowler needs to match or beat a score 4 pins above their average to be awarded a point.

The rule doesn't seem fair to the 140 bowler.

Aslan

04-08-2014, 07:01 PM

I am going to start an information thread and this (moderator?) can become the "discussion" thread. Too much clutter you are going to confuse people. Also need a sign up thread.

You go girl! You can be my secretary. Like Maggie Ghylenhall in that weird movie where her boss kept spanking her.

Aslan

04-08-2014, 07:06 PM

140 bowler needs to match or beat a score 4 pins above their average to be awarded a point.

The rule doesn't seem fair to the 140 bowler.

Oh...and now you care about the 140 bowler?? Hey...I was just trying not to heap on the better bowlers who were already giving up handicap...but if you and VDub don't want the help...then fine....we'll do it your way. But I want Bowl1820 to come in here and promise that if ONE PERSON whines when they outscore every single bowler by 30 pins and still lose 3 of 4...that he changes their avatar to something very unflattering and leaves it locked that way the entire year. Because I KNOW thats going to happen....I just KNOW it.

And it doesn't matter...we have an even number right now so you're doing math for math's sake at this point.

classygranny

04-08-2014, 10:46 PM

vdubtx

04-08-2014, 11:45 PM

Here is USBC Rule #104d

104d. Uneven Number
When a league has an uneven number of teams, the team scheduled against the nonexistent team
cannot be credited with the points by forfeit. The Earn the Points system is used unless the league
board of directors, by majority vote, decides to use the Bye or Draw System. The following procedures
apply for each system:
1. Earn the Points:
a. An individual must bowl at least his/her average less ten (10) pins and/or teams must bowl
at least the team average less ten (10) pins per player, unless the league board states another
number.
b. Points not won by the team for failing to bowl the prescribed score should be recorded on the
standing sheet as “unearned” points.
2. Draw System:
a. Teams bowling the vacant team will draw a team or be scheduled against another
team from the league to earn points.
b. The scores bowled will be used as if bowling in direct competition with the
drawn/scheduled team.
3. Bye System:
a. Team scheduled against the vacant team does not bowl.
b. Position standings shall be determined on a percentage basis.
In all cases, the games bowled by the team that withdrew or was dismissed must stand.

bowl1820

04-09-2014, 12:01 AM

If you are using USBC centers, then wouldn't it be reasonable to use the USBC ruling for byes/uncontested team scoring. I'm sure Bowl1820 has that rule on hand and can post it for us. I'm not in a position to look for it at this time.

While you say you have an even amount of people/teams, you still need the ruling to cover those times when a person doesn't bowl. Most times if a team doesn't show, the team bowling still has to bowl within the 10 pins per bowler in order to take the points. Same thing should apply on this virtual tour.

Of course, this is my humble opinion, such as it is.

classygranny the bowl within 10 pins of your average would be the standard way of doing it. (10 for game/ 30 for series)

In this situation IMO I would use a "Draw System" instead.

The person bowling the bye/vacant position would be randomly paired with one of the other bowlers in the tournament.

And their scores used to determine the points won.

Example:

"Bowler A" & "Bowler B" bowl against each other.

"Bowler C" is randomly paired with say "Bowler A"

"Bowler A" bowled 170-230-209-609 vs "Bowler B" bowled 191-188-205-584
"Bowler A" wins 3 points (two games and series)
"Bowler B" wins 1 point (one game)

"Bowler C" bowled 213-218-194-625 against "Bowler A's" scores.
So "Bowler C" wins 2 points (one game and series)

bowl1820

04-09-2014, 12:16 AM

Note:

Given if

RULES:
- USBC rules apply.

Then this should be changed:

OTHER IMPORTANT RULES/NOTES:
- IF you don't play one month, you forfeit all 4 points to the chosen opponent.

The chosen opponent can't win points by forfeiture.

Mudpuppy

04-09-2014, 09:44 AM

classygranny the bowl within 10 pins of your average would be the standard way of doing it. (10 for game/ 30 for series)

In this situation IMO I would use a "Draw System" instead.

The person bowling the bye/vacant position would be randomly paired with one of the other bowlers in the tournament.

And their scores used to determine the points won.

Example:

"Bowler A" & "Bowler B" bowl against each other.

"Bowler C" is randomly paired with say "Bowler A"

"Bowler A" bowled 170-230-209-609 vs "Bowler B" bowled 191-188-205-584
"Bowler A" wins 3 points (two games and series)
"Bowler B" wins 1 point (one game)

"Bowler C" bowled 213-218-194-625 against "Bowler A's" scores.
So "Bowler C" wins 2 points (one game and series)

Exactly what I was saying yesterday

Aslan

04-09-2014, 12:05 PM

Okay, classygranny is correct and Bowl1820 has provided the rule. So that leaves us with 2 options:

1) Bowl against your average minus 10 pins. No whining if you bowl better than the rest of the league and still lose.
2) Use the "draw" system so essentially there'd be 2 teams bowling against 1 team's scores that month. Note, the "1 team" can't get a possible 8 points, only 4.

Even though I think my original system was more fair....so it's less based on "luck of the draw"....I will almost always defer to the USBC rules if said rule exists. My vote given the choices above is the Draw system.

Mudpuppy

04-09-2014, 01:20 PM

I agree - draw system

classygranny

04-09-2014, 02:59 PM

I'll agree with draw. Just want something in place that everyone is aware of before commencement.

What about the issue if a person that doesn't bowl one month?

vdubtx

04-09-2014, 03:43 PM

Note:

Given if

Then this should be changed:

The chosen opponent can't win points by forfeiture.

If someone does not bowl a given month, then the "blind" score for said person should be used. Shouldn't automatically give 4 points to the opponent. In leagues if you bowl and the opposing team does not show up or has not made arrangements for Pre or Post bowl, you still have to bowl with the mind set of beating the other team/bowler using their blind scores.

Aslan

04-09-2014, 03:54 PM

I'll agree with draw. Just want something in place that everyone is aware of before commencement.

What about the issue if a person that doesn't bowl one month?

Originally, the thought was to have the person bowling against them have to beat their average minus 10 pins, similar to a vacant bowler in league situations. Unless anyone has any big objection to that.

The reason I was going to use the average for a person not showing up versus "BLIND" for a person bowling against an empty spot was that when you're bowling against a person and they don't show...you have their average to bowl against. But when you're bowling against an open spot...that spot doesn't have an average...so I figured that spot could just be the average of everyone that month. But it looks like we'll do the draw method instead in that case.

But yeah, if the other person doesn't bowl that you are matched up against, you bowl against their average minus 10 pins.

Mudpuppy

04-09-2014, 04:32 PM

Once you announce the pairings and the lanes we are supposed to bowl at what is the deadline to get your 3 games in? Midnight April 30, 2014?

Aslan

04-09-2014, 04:48 PM

Once you announce the pairings and the lanes we are supposed to bowl at what is the deadline to get your 3 games in? Midnight April 30, 2014?

Yes sir. End of the month. Then it's time Round II in May.

P.S. Yes, if there's some emergency reason why you can't get the scores in I won't forfeit you. But please try to keep the deadline in mind so it doesn't hold everyone else up.

Mudpuppy

04-09-2014, 04:57 PM

Now if both people that are opponents that bowl each other turn in their scores will you release the results?

bowl1820

04-09-2014, 05:06 PM

Originally, the thought was to have the person bowling against them have to beat their average minus 10 pins, similar to a vacant bowler in league situations. Unless anyone has any big objection to that.

I think some confusion here on the use of terms.

A vacancy/vacant score is a set score (EX: 140) with the handicap figured from that score. That is used if you don't have a bowler and vacancy doesn't use the -10 pins.

The reason I was going to use the average for a person not showing up versus "BLIND" for a person bowling against an empty spot was that when you're bowling against a person and they don't show...you have their average to bowl against.

A Absentee/Blind score is the absent member’s current average minus 10 pins, unless the rules specify a different number.

A empty spot would be a vacancy.

But when you're bowling against an open spot...that spot doesn't have an average...
Now here you could set and use a Vacancy score for the open spot. (Though you would have to determine what a fair vacancy score is or use the USBC vacancy score of 120.

or
Have the bowler bowl within 10 pins of their average to earn points.
(While it's not a automatic win, most times & most bowlers will be able to win all points doing this. Plus it could encourage a little sandbagging, once someone got with in 10 pins they could layoff some to keep tournament average down.)

or
Use the Draw system
(IMO the draw system here would be more fun and challenging, because you are bowling against real persons scores.)

so I figured that spot could just be the average of everyone that month.
In essence that would be a vacancy score that could vary month by month. While you could do that, I can see some fairness issues arise.

Do to one bowler getting to bowl against a lower score one month and another bowler having to bowl against a higher one the next.

Also it makes for more work having to recalculate that average/score every month. A set vacancy score would be easier.

But it looks like we'll do the draw method instead in that case.

But yeah, if the other person doesn't bowl that you are matched up against, you bowl against their average minus 10 pins.
That's fair for a absentee bowler, it's like whats used in most leagues.

Mike White

04-09-2014, 07:12 PM

There is a fairly straight forward system that both eliminates the "luck of the draw", and handles any number of competitors.

Each month your scores are compared to every other competitor.

If for example there are 10 competitors, each person would face 9 other people.

For each player, there are 9 possible points to be won or lost per game.

To normalize the months results, each player for that month would have the points won divided by 9.

This would provide a maximum # of points in a month of 4.

If during the next month there were 12 competitors, each player would have 11 opponents, and 11 points per game possible. Again divide by 11 to normalize the month's points for a maximum possible 4 points.

This completely removes luck of the draw as for opponents, and eliminates the problem of byes and absent opponents.

bowl1820

04-09-2014, 07:26 PM

^^^^Ah The "Team versus Field" system, you don't see that one much.^^^^

classygranny

04-09-2014, 08:09 PM

Interesting, Mike. Could you put some examples using numbers together so I can make sure I understand? I'm sure I do, but I want to see how it looks on paper.

bowl1820

04-09-2014, 09:12 PM

Interesting, Mike. Could you put some examples using numbers together so I can make sure I understand? I'm sure I do, but I want to see how it looks on paper.

Here is a example that shows it.

There are 8 Bowlers with 7 possible points to be won or lost per game and series. For a possible 28 points max to win.

The Recap shows Name, Average, Handicap (using 90% of 220 and the handicap scores
(and these are actual peoples averages and scores who bowled on the same pair of lanes on a THS during league.)

There are Standings and also shown are the points by games and series. And total points per bowler

as you see while the lowest average bowler didn't win, neither did the highest average bowler

http://s5.postimg.org/xn2ucbo3r/tvsfhdcpsheet3.gif

classygranny

04-09-2014, 10:36 PM

Thanks Bowl...you're the best!

Had my brain around it, but second guessed myself. Good to see it "in action". Again many thanks.

I would go for something like this.

Mike White

04-09-2014, 11:09 PM

Thanks Bowl...you're the best!

Had my brain around it, but second guessed myself. Good to see it "in action". Again many thanks.

I would go for something like this.

The above example is very close, but the scores should include handicap.

245 -> 7
237 -> 6
236 -> 5
225 -> 3.5
225 -> 3.5
223 -> 2
197 -> 0.5
197 -> 0.5

This would be an example of how to deal with ties.

vdubtx

04-09-2014, 11:32 PM

The option that Mike presented is really pretty cool. Hadn't ever come across a scoring system like that. I could go for that too to make it a bit more interesting.

bowl1820

04-10-2014, 08:11 AM

The above example is very close, but the scores should include handicap.

It doesn't matter if those are scratch or handicap scores shown in the example,

If it's a Handicap Tourney you use the Handicap scores to figure the standings.
If it's a Scratch Tourney you use the Scratch scores to figure the standings.

The process will be the same.

But to help out I'll change it to handicap scores ALAKAZAM! POOF! those are Handicap scores!

bowl1820

04-10-2014, 08:37 AM

The option that Mike presented is really pretty cool. Hadn't ever come across a scoring system like that. I could go for that too to make it a bit more interesting.
You didn't see the "Team VS Field" system much, because if the field got big. Then it was a lot of work comparing the scores etc. and figuring the standings (Back before they used computer programs to do standings) so it didn't get used much if at all.

Mudpuppy

04-10-2014, 10:17 AM

Wow that is pretty interesting. Maybe something to consider for season 2 Aslan? I think what the you vs the field scoring system misses out on is the competition of you vs a random bowler from BB. I think that part mights it fun and interesting as well. But we haven't started yet so it is possible to use this you vs the field scoring. It's up to our Californian connection and then for the field to buy in.

Bunny

04-10-2014, 11:20 AM

Mudpuppy

04-10-2014, 11:47 AM

Aslan

04-10-2014, 12:10 PM

Sorry for the late reply. I'm in. It might make things easier as far as an even number here in So Cal too.

Aslan-Do you have league sheets form that last league at Carter handy? If not Chris has it somewhere. I can email it to you later today if needed.

I "may" have the last scoresheet from Carter. Does this mean you don't have a USBC ID #? I'll also need the centers of every league you played in last year, assuming you played in leagues other than our league at Carter.

Wow that is pretty interesting. Maybe something to consider for season 2 Aslan? I think what the you vs the field scoring system misses out on is the competition of you vs a random bowler from BB. I think that part mights it fun and interesting as well. But we haven't started yet so it is possible to use this you vs the field scoring. It's up to our Californian connection and then for the field to buy in.

Absolutely. I think it's too late in the game to go down that route right now (1 day from the tour starting), but as I said in an earlier post...for season 2...2015...I plan to transfer duties to the next person in line (probably Mudpuppy since he's shown the most interest) and that person could make whatever changes they'd like. That way this doesn't become "my tournament" and discourage participants who aren't "Aslan fans".

Bunny

04-10-2014, 12:49 PM

I "may" have the last scoresheet from Carter. Does this mean you don't have a USBC ID #? I'll also need the centers of every league you played in last year, assuming you played in leagues other than our league at Carter.

No USBC ID# and no other leagues. I've only done leagues at Carter. The first one was last Spring. It's tough with Chris' schedule. Plus, Bud and Babs are both super busy right now too so no team to bowl with. We've just been bowling when we can and following the cheap rates around OC.

I should be able to pull out the league sheet tonight to scan and email to you.

Mudpuppy

04-10-2014, 01:40 PM

I "may" have the last scoresheet from Carter. Does this mean you don't have a USBC ID #? I'll also need the centers of every league you played in last year, assuming you played in leagues other than our league at Carter.

Absolutely. I think it's too late in the game to go down that route right now (1 day from the tour starting), but as I said in an earlier post...for season 2...2015...I plan to transfer duties to the next person in line (probably Mudpuppy since he's shown the most interest) and that person could make whatever changes they'd like. That way this doesn't become "my tournament" and discourage participants who aren't "Aslan fans".

I like the idea of the rotating duties - imo we should make it an elected position for season 2. Those who participate all get a vote. First we nominate potential candidates and those candidates have to accept the nomination. Then we elect. Then there is a 1-2 month planning period to go over the rules, etc. before season 2 starts.

Mike White

04-10-2014, 01:58 PM

It doesn't matter if those are scratch or handicap scores shown in the example,

If it's a Handicap Tourney you use the Handicap scores to figure the standings.
If it's a Scratch Tourney you use the Scratch scores to figure the standings.

The process will be the same.

But to help out I'll change it to handicap scores ALAKAZAM! POOF! those are Handicap scores!

Without the handicap, it made the low average bowler appear to have no chance.

People jump to conclusions based on appearance, not on the actual facts.

Look what happened when I suggested using handicap of 90% from 250.

"Oh no... that's cheating."

Mike White

04-10-2014, 02:08 PM

Absolutely. I think it's too late in the game to go down that route right now (1 day from the tour starting), but as I said in an earlier post...for season 2...2015...I plan to transfer duties to the next person in line (probably Mudpuppy since he's shown the most interest) and that person could make whatever changes they'd like. That way this doesn't become "my tournament" and discourage participants who aren't "Aslan fans".

So what you're saying is, it will be a rotating dictatorship.

There hasn't been one ball thrown yet. Put it to a vote.

Mudpuppy

04-10-2014, 03:09 PM

So what you're saying is, it will be a rotating dictatorship.

There hasn't been one ball thrown yet. Put it to a vote.

Mike let's just see how season 1 goes and learn from it - Aslan came up with the concept so let's run with it.

But after season 1 I think we need an elected leader and a "steering committee" or board of sorts. So the leader has to make sure to keep the board focused and is the final say if there isn't an conclusive decision by the board. That's my thoughts. We could vote on a model of leadership for season 2 before electing anyone and have a general consensus on best path forward. But you are right - 1 ball hasn't been thrown. Let's just get this off the ground with what Mr. Aslan has set up - good, bad, ugly or indifferent. Let's see how it goes. He came up with the great idea so let's just see how it plays out. Season 1 could be near perfect and could be the exact model for all future seasons.

classygranny

04-10-2014, 06:11 PM

Still need to determine how to handle the absentee situation, in case a bowler decides not to bowl one month.

bowl1820

04-10-2014, 07:11 PM

Without the handicap, it made the low average bowler appear to have no chance.

People jump to conclusions based on appearance, not on the actual facts.

Look what happened when I suggested using handicap of 90% from 250.

"Oh no... that's cheating."

Okay mike go back and look I made a new example, it shows averages, handicap, handicap scores.

It shouldn't scare any low average bowlers (a 126 ave came in 2nd place!)

Mudpuppy

04-10-2014, 10:55 PM

We should have everyone vote on it - especially now since we have 11 people there will be no ties. So my opinion is two choices:

1. -10 of the absent bowler's average or if bowling the blind then -10 of the bowler's own average
2. Draw - Bowler A vs Bowler B and Bowler C v Bowler A but bowler A is only eligible for 4 points total as is B and C. If someone chooses not to bowl (absentee) then another opponent (Bowler A in the example) is randomly drawn to bowl against.

vdubtx

04-10-2014, 11:05 PM

Aslan

04-10-2014, 11:24 PM

Last Minute DETAILS STILL NEEDED:

Currently, based on the responses,
- I never received a USBC # for Stormed1. I will PM him.
- Mudpuppy, I need a home CITY for you. You listed your lanes, but I don't know your home city to base the location for the center selection process. I'll PM you.
- Bunny, also need a home city for you as well. I seem to remember "Orange, CA"? But I want to make sure I have your home city (see above) to base the center selection off of. I'll PM ya.

VACANT BOWLER/BYE: FINAL RULING
- Since we're starting with 12 (even though Stormed1 is likely to be vacant, we won't need the "Draw Rule" for BYEs in Month #1 (April.
- Vacant bowler…if a bowler signed up currently fails to bowl in April and submit their scores, with validation, to aslan_supreme@yahoo.com by midnight the last day of April (12:00AM, May 1st)….we will use their average + handicap - 10 pins.
- Since Stormed1 is the big question mark, and I don't have any data for him other than the average he claims…by rule he bowls scratch…thus anyone bowling him bowls against (171 + 0 - 10) per game which means 161+161+161=483.
- But remember, if you don't bowl, you don't accrue points…even when you win points against your opponent. So if I bowl a (109+49)+(135+49)+(184+49) = (158)+(184)+(238)=590 I would get 3 of the 4 points but Stormed1 would not get ANY points since he didn't bowl.

I'm hoping Stormed1 submits his USBC# and we can get him on board so nobody has to bowl against a vacant unless someone just can't get a game scheduled. That'll make things more fair since most of us can get at least 3 out of 4 points against a 171 scratch -10.

So I'll wait for the last few details (Stormed, Mudpuppy, and Bunny)…but will work on the pairings and averages tonight so all it is is a matter of drawing centers once I hear back from Mudpuppy and Bunny (and hopefully Stormed1).

Mudpuppy

04-11-2014, 12:08 AM

Sending you my home city via PM. Where is Stormed1 from? What state? I missed the application to join. When was that? Should I add to the application list?

Mike White

04-11-2014, 01:37 AM

Last Minute DETAILS STILL NEEDED:

Currently, based on the responses,
- I never received a USBC # for Stormed1. I will PM him.
- Mudpuppy, I need a home CITY for you. You listed your lanes, but I don't know your home city to base the location for the center selection process. I'll PM you.
- Bunny, also need a home city for you as well. I seem to remember "Orange, CA"? But I want to make sure I have your home city (see above) to base the center selection off of. I'll PM ya.

VACANT BOWLER/BYE: FINAL RULING
- Since we're starting with 12 (even though Stormed1 is likely to be vacant, we won't need the "Draw Rule" for BYEs in Month #1 (April.
- Vacant bowler…if a bowler signed up currently fails to bowl in April and submit their scores, with validation, to aslan_supreme@yahoo.com by midnight the last day of April (12:00AM, May 1st)….we will use their average + handicap - 10 pins.
- Since Stormed1 is the big question mark, and I don't have any data for him other than the average he claims…by rule he bowls scratch…thus anyone bowling him bowls against (171 + 0 - 10) per game which means 161+161+161=483.
- But remember, if you don't bowl, you don't accrue points…even when you win points against your opponent. So if I bowl a (109+49)+(135+49)+(184+49) = (158)+(184)+(238)=590 I would get 3 of the 4 points but Stormed1 would not get ANY points since he didn't bowl.

You still don't understand the average - 10 rule.

You have to bowl scratch, at or above your own average -10 pins if you face a vacant bowler.
Not your opponents average + handicap - 10.

And you don't understand how to calculate handicap yet either.

hdcp = max(int((220-avg)*0.9),0)

i.e. drop fractions

Aslan 151 62
Bunny 145 67
classygranny 176 39
Janderson 169 45
Mudpuppy 192 25
Mwhite 195 22
noeymc 161 53
Stormed1 171 44
tccstudent 185 31
tr33frog 213 6
vdubtx 215 4
zdawg 141 71

It's going to be difficult to send in the results to aslan_supreme@yahoo.com, because anytime I put the words aslan, and supreme together in an address line, the message goes directly into the spam bin.

Mike White

04-11-2014, 02:32 AM

Okay mike go back and look I made a new example, it shows averages, handicap, handicap scores.

It shouldn't scare any low average bowlers (a 126 ave came in 2nd place!)

That is closer, but still has a few errors in it.

When calculating handicap, you drop fractions, not round up.

A person with a 175 average would get 40 pins, not 41.

When normalizing, you divide by one less than the number of competitors.

In your example you are dividing by 8 instead of 7.

Dividing by 8 normalizes a perfect score of 28 to 3.5, it should be normalized to 4.0

With 12 people, a perfect score would be 44. 44 divided by 12 would give 3.67, while 44 divided by 11 would give 4.0

Aslan

04-11-2014, 03:14 AM

I have no idea what Mike is talking about. I mean, I used the (220-avg)*.9 to get the handicap for each bowler. It may have rounded up or down a pin but I don't think that's a giant, monumental disaster of epic proportions.

And I don't have a problem with coming up with a different way of getting me verifications of the scores; I just figured e-mail would be easier than having people upload them into computers, put them on some file share site, then link to them and post it in a thread. But I'm open to any way that works.

I have not yet drawn physical pairings (CA only) nor virtual pairings. I'm more than halfway through the center mapping but need to quit for the night. I'll finish up the rest of them hopefully tomorrow night or by the latest Sunday. I'm hoping tomorrow though to give everyone a chance to bowl this weekend if they want.

- Aslan

Mike White

04-11-2014, 04:18 AM

I have no idea what Mike is talking about. I mean, I used the (220-avg)*.9 to get the handicap for each bowler. It may have rounded up or down a pin but I don't think that's a giant, monumental disaster of epic proportions.

From the 2013-2014 USBC rule book.
USBC2013_14Rulebook.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/USBC2013_14Rulebook.pdf)

100g. Handicap
A handicap league is one in which handicap is added to a bowler’s score to place bowlers and teams with varying degrees of skill on as equitable a basis as possible for scheduled competition. USBC league rules shall apply to all USBC handicap leagues, in addition to the following:

6. When figuring handicap or averages, fractions are to be dropped. (Download a handicap chart on BOWL.com.)

vdubtx

04-11-2014, 09:12 AM

I have no idea what Mike is talking about. I mean, I used the (220-avg)*.9 to get the handicap for each bowler. It may have rounded up or down a pin but I don't think that's a giant, monumental disaster of epic proportions.

From the 2013-2014 USBC rule book.
USBC2013_14Rulebook.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/USBC2013_14Rulebook.pdf)

100g. Handicap
A handicap league is one in which handicap is added to a bowler’s score to place bowlers and teams with varying degrees of skill on as equitable a basis as possible for scheduled competition. USBC league rules shall apply to all USBC handicap leagues, in addition to the following:

6. When figuring handicap or averages, fractions are to be dropped. (Download a handicap chart on BOWL.com.)

As Mike noted in the USBC rules, handicap is never rounded up.

vdubtx

04-11-2014, 09:22 AM

Restaing the handicaps for you:

Representing Northeastern Orange County California:
- Aslan, 151 average +62, 213 handicap.

Representing North Central Orange County California:
- Bunny, 145 average +67, 212 handicap.

Representing the Grand Canyon State of Arizona:
- classygranny, 176 average, +39, 215 handicap.

Representing the Constitution State of Connecticut:
- Janderson, 169 average, +45, 214 handicap.

Representing the Great Lakes State of Michigan:
- Mudpuppy, 192 average, +25, 217 handicap.

Representing Riverside County California:
- MWhite, 195 average, +22, 217 handicap.

Representing the Buckeye State of Ohio:
- noeymc, 161 average, +53, 214 handicap.

Representing the Land of Lincoln; Illinois:
- Stormed1, 171 average, (currently 0 handicap unless USBC# is provided), 171 handicap.

Representing the Sooner State of Oklahoma:
- tccstudent, 185 average, +31, 216 handicap.

Representing the Sunflower State of Kansas:
- tr33frog, 213 average, +6, 219 handicap.

Representing the Lone Star State of Texas:
- vdubtx, 215 average, +4, 219 handicap.

Representing San Diego County California:
- Zdawg, 141 average, +71, 212 handicap.

bowl1820

04-11-2014, 09:32 AM

That is closer, but still has a few errors in it.

When calculating handicap, you drop fractions, not round up.

A person with a 175 average would get 40 pins, not 41.

Yes, I know you drop the fraction and don't round. I didn't notice the spreadsheet had rounded it.

When normalizing, you divide by one less than the number of competitors.

In your example you are dividing by 8 instead of 7.

Dividing by 8 normalizes a perfect score of 28 to 3.5, it should be normalized to 4.0

With 12 people, a perfect score would be 44. 44 divided by 12 would give 3.67, while 44 divided by 11 would give 4.0

Yes thank you for pointing that out, I forgot. Though really the normalizing is a needless extra step.

I updated it

J Anderson

04-11-2014, 10:05 AM

Aslan, in calculating my composite average you combined my right-handed sport average, denoted by the sport bowling icon after the league name, with my left-handed regular average from last year. I haven't decided which way I want to bowl for this tournament. I would be willing to do what I've done for "Beat Your Coach" day and let the other tourney participants vote on which hand I should use.

tccstudent

04-11-2014, 10:20 AM

Representing the Sooner State of Oklahoma:
- tccstudent, 185 average, +31, 216 handicap.
.

where did you get 185 from bowl.com has it listed at 186

vdubtx

04-11-2014, 10:37 AM

where did you get 185 from bowl.com has it listed at 186

I didn't get it from anywhere, simply used whatever Aslan had listed for everyone with the incorrectly calculated handicap and updated it with corrected handicaps.

Bunny

04-11-2014, 12:07 PM

You guys are definitely entertaining. I'm pretty much good with whatevs except bowling at Carter AMF. That place bites. Their archaic, wick-style oil machine, we call it "Old Yeller" lays down some kind of funky a** block pattern.

Good luck figuring that s**t out. Mike W. would literally lose his mind. ;)

Aslan

04-11-2014, 12:32 PM

All I can say...is...if the revised numbers are less than a pin different than the originally posted numbers....I'm not updating them. I mean for *&Dks sake...if we're going to, before this thing even starts, get bent about a .6 pin difference...this thing is going to be WAY too much of a hassle.

The spreadsheet too the averages, used the agreed upon formula, and it gave the numbers. Guess what...next week....its all gonna change!! Your scores will be used to calculate beautiful NEW averages...using the same spreadsheet....YIPPEEE!! If at the end of the season...ANYONE can point to how a < 1 pin averaging difference between Excel and the USBC rule book led to them not winning the gift certificate...I'll personally BUY them a $25 bowlingball.com gift certificate.

Don't annoy me before the thing even starts. I already gotta contend with the annoyance of me actually *$%&ing up. One of the rare times I shoulda listened to YOU GUYS...by making the stupid radius 90 miles (for initial center selection) rather than the more reasonable 45 mile radius...I've made the center list so god awful large that said step is taking forever. So, note to next Tour President....regardless of the California dilemma (zdawg living 58 miles from civilization)...DON'T use 90 miles. Some people live in "normal" states and 90 miles can take them to 3 different states....and cliff notes it' stupid. And it's ESPECIALLY ANNOYING because if I DID draw a center more than 90 miles away (for anyone but myself), they'd argue successfully for a re-draw to something closer...(i.e. why make it 90 miles when you're just gonna re-draw it, duh?)

Add that to MWhite being a constant annoyance just because he likes to torture me...knowing that WHATEVER the random generator picks...he's gonna say there's some kind universal nonsense at play and said center is imporssible to play at due to some weird common law technical BS...GOD FORBID it picks Temecula Lanes...the site of Aslan's dominant performance in the event that started it all...the 1st Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial ZDawg vs. Aslan Southern California Invitational...MWhite will probably have a vein in his head explode and then I lose my ball driller.

So settle down...let the genius (me) work his magic tonight...and we'll get this thing off the ground. If MS Excel gives vdub 5 pins instead of 4...then bowl 1 pin better when you're paired against him and stop crying. Am I the only one that has played other sports? Remember the coach telling you after a close loss...that it wasn't that last second shot not going in...it was the 10 free throws you missed throughout the game that cost you the victory? If you lose by one pin...it probably can be traced to 100 things other than .6 rounding up to 1.

Bunny

04-11-2014, 12:49 PM

vdubtx

04-11-2014, 12:49 PM

If you're gonna do it, do it right from the start. If anything, for the legitimacy of it. 1 pin or not, get it right to start it.

My $.02

bowl1820

04-11-2014, 01:20 PM

Aslan if you want go to this link at Insidebowling and just put in what handicap you want and it will make a handicap chart for you:

http://www.insidebowling.com/resource/league/handicap

Aslan

04-11-2014, 03:50 PM

90 miles seems a little crazy. Half-way for zdawg and us is 45 miles. The problem is the huge amount of nothing that is at the half-way point. Oceanside is around 55 miles. 60 miles might be a good number. That would be about an hour drive time. Which seems reasonable. Too late for a rule change and re-draw for you?

Seriously though, thanks for all the work you've done on this!

I'm 3/5 of the way through. And Stormed1 has sent in his information so we're at an even 12 of actual participants.

I'll take a look at the link provided and "perhaps" redo the averages to take into account the < 1-pin rounding difference. I'm still undecided. While on principle I agree that I want it to be fully in line with the USBC guidelines....I also on priniciple and for the reason of setting precedent, don't want to have to redo a ton of work and make things even more difficult every time there's a teeny tiny miniscule issue. I mean, it's less than a pin for crying out loud.

To Bunny's point; Yes...the original reason I chose 90 miles was because of what I call the "Zdawg Protocol". Because I wanted to get us California folks physically together to bowl agaisnt each other...and San Diego while being a lovely area is isolated from the rest of civilized California by hills and desert and military bases...I had to expand the range slightly. I figured it wasn't a big deal because actually "driving" that way (or this way from there) is not really a traffic issue (as it would be driving to the other side of LA from Orange County or vice versa. But once we turned this thing into a "Tour" and involved more people...I didn't realize how problematic a 90-mile radius would be. For example:

- It now expands the non-ZDawg Californians from about Yucca Valley to Ventura....which even in moderate traffic would take 6-7 hours to traverse.
- In areas like JAnderson's Connecticut....smaller state...guess what....now his radius includes Connecticut, New York, a small part of Massachusetts, and almost New Jersey/Pennsylvania. Each state on average doubles the work.
- Thus far, Arizona was actually the easiest (classgranny) because the cities are generally well-defined and spread out and she isn't near any state lines...so it wasn't too bad. And zdawg's was easy because despite San Diego's size...they have relatively few bowling alleys.
- I just need to finish the lists for Mudpuppy, noeymc, and Stormed1 which will be a little tircky since Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, and Illinois will "slightly" overlap. tr33frog will be slightly tricky as well with both Kansas and Missouri overlapping. And then vdub and tccstudent should be straight forward. There's a "slight chance" that noeymc, Stormed, and/or Mudpuppy could overlap enough where they might be able to physically face one another...but highly doubtful. The states are just too big and Indiana is unrepresented.

The easiest pairing to physically meet will be you and I since we're both in Orange County. And MWhite shouldn't be too much of a problem either. But Zdawg is on the fringe. Either we'd have to go to the Murrieta/Lake Elsinore/Temecula area to meet in the middle or he'd have to make a trip to the outer area of Orange County like Saddleback Lanes. But we'll see what the generator spits out. If he gets a San Diego center and Mike gets a North Riverside County center or we get a South LA center(s)....then maybe we'll save a physical meet-up with zdawg to a later month when he draws something closer. Now, he always the OPTION...of making a drive....and if he draws me...I will probably drive to San Diego just because I have no life and I go to Temecula once a week anyways...so I'd just swing by SD before heading home. But, with the price of gas at $4.15+ in this great state of our's....eghhhhhhhh...I might not.

Should have it ready tonight. I'm at work but not really working today....it's the Friday before spring break....half the folks aren't here anyways....so whatever. :p

Aslan

04-11-2014, 03:54 PM

Another side note/benefit of this little "exercise in futility" is, if any of the participants want a list of every USBC sanctioned alley within 90 miles of them....I will have that list.

Not sure if anyone would want such a thing....but if so, my pain is your gain!!

Mike White

04-11-2014, 03:59 PM

Add that to MWhite being a constant annoyance just because he likes to torture me...

Telling you when you've screwed up is torture?

Am I the only one that has played other sports? Remember the coach telling you after a close loss...that it wasn't that last second shot not going in...it was the 10 free throws you missed throughout the game that cost you the victory? If you lose by one pin...it probably can be traced to 100 things other than .6 rounding up to 1.

Lets say for whatever reason, the scoreboard wasn't reset to 0 - 0 before the game, and your opponent had 1 extra point to begin the game.

First, if your coach is not an idiot, he's going to say something before the game starts.

If that doesn't get it fixed, and the game ends up with that 1 point making a difference, he's going to protest.

Now, wouldn't it be better to fix the problem before the game starts?

dpatrickv

04-11-2014, 04:22 PM

This might be tempting, provided that there was anywhere around me doing this. Closest one is Kansas.

Not to mention, the possibility of having to drive 2-3 hours somewhere to bowl three games then drive back seems like a PITA to me.

vdubtx

04-11-2014, 04:43 PM

Mike White, for most of your last post it is a hot mess of what you were trying to quote.

Bunny

04-11-2014, 04:54 PM

I might have to bowl in LA? Holy C***p. Eff that! Just kidding. Kind of.

zdawg

04-11-2014, 07:58 PM

....regardless of the California dilemma (zdawg living 58 miles from civilization)....

Ummm, while downtown San Diego isn't quite as crazy as the other cities I've lived in - Miami, DC, NYC - I don't think anyone I know would consider it being in the boonies :rolleyes:

noeymc

04-11-2014, 08:59 PM

1 pin can win or lose a game that 1 pin handicap can make all the difference its all good tho when do we start

Aslan

04-11-2014, 09:03 PM

Not to mention, the possibility of having to drive 2-3 hours somewhere to bowl three games then drive back seems like a PITA to me.

Unless you drive 20mph, nobody is driving 2-3 hours to bowl. So far...WORST case...I might have to drive 2 hours to roll with zdawg in San Diego (if I choose to). Or he'd travel 2-4 hours (due to craptastic traffic) to bowl in Orange or LA counties.

But I don't see anyone driving more than 1hr 15min one way...and that would be if they chose to bowl and the traffic was bad or there was an accident or something. In normal traffic...even if they kept an alley that was 90 miles...(which most have said they'd want re-drawn)...thats an hour and a half.

MUDPUPPY/NOEYMC!!! NOTE!!
I just finished your lists and there ARE some alleys midway between you guys (<90 miles). So, if either of you draw those centers (or you both do)...I'd encourage you to try and meet up there to bowl. HOWEVER...

1) they are 70-80 miles away...so obviously we could just re-draw, no problem.

2) I think Noah might be 9 years old (based on lack of punctuation) thus having him meet a stranger from Michigan across the border southeast of Toledo seems "funny" to me. Even if Noah's parents aren't "alarmed"...which begs the question "why not?"....and are willing to drive him there...having Mudpuppy cross state lines to meet up with a 9-year old for "fun" is the kinda thing that could get Mudpuppy on some kind of "To Catch a Predator" episode...which is NOT in accordance with the guidelines of BowlingBoards.com....so....not looking good for the possibility of a face to face Ohio/Michigan challenge. :eek: But just letting you know, I found a handful of bowling centers in Northwest Ohio that are about 73-78 miles from each of you.

Finishing up the last 4 participants...should be done this evening.

Aslan

04-11-2014, 09:10 PM

Lets say for whatever reason, the scoreboard wasn't reset to 0 - 0 before the game, and your opponent had 1 extra point to begin the game.

First, if your coach is not an idiot, he's going to say something before the game starts.

If that doesn't get it fixed, and the game ends up with that 1 point making a difference, he's going to protest.

Now, wouldn't it be better to fix the problem before the game starts?

I suppose that analogy makes sense.

But my analogy is, it's like when your wife always wants you to do a list of like 40 things around the house...and no matter how many of them you complete....the list continues to stay at about 30-40 things. So you give in and vacuum...because you heard on the radio that if you do chores it makes your woman horny....but then instead of "happy time" she points out that the dishes also need to be done.

See, it never ends. you put your finger in one leak, and another springs up. If we fix this tiny, < 1 pin error....my expectation (is NOT that you'll sleep with me) is that will end the neverending debate over fine tuining every last rule and procedure down to the minutia. But I have a feeling...there will be another pile of dishes in the MWhite sink. And at some point...we have to end the debate over the rulebook...and actually start to bowl the games. I realize after my last victory that you're a little gunshy....and maybe this is yet another stall tactic...but sooner or later...you're going to have to bowl. :cool:

vdubtx

04-11-2014, 10:06 PM

Aslan, in the time it's taken for you to refuse to change the handicap to make it accurate, it could have been changed and done with.

noeymc

04-11-2014, 10:33 PM

not sure why your attaching and 73 miles would be around 20 dollars worth of gas just to go bowling idk about u but i live paycheck to paycheck + got a house payment maybe a every few months i could do something like that

Aslan

04-11-2014, 11:08 PM

Aslan, in the time it's taken for you to refuse to change the handicap to make it accurate, it could have been changed and done with.

I WILL!!! Christ almighty. Did it occur to anyone that I might be busy paging through 600 bowling centers at the moment??

Fine, I'll change it right now….and then wait for the next MWhite problem with some minute thing….then I'll go back to the bowling centers.

And noeymc….you lost me at not being sure why I'm attaching.

Mike White

04-12-2014, 01:40 AM

Mike White, for most of your last post it is a hot mess of what you were trying to quote.

I removed the mess, I got a little busy at work and needed to restart the computer. I noticed the unsent message, so I hit send.

Afterwards I noticed I hadn't deleted the "crap" at the top.

Mudpuppy

04-12-2014, 09:30 AM

I see participants and handicap - is there a list somewhere of where everyone is going to bowl?

vdubtx

04-12-2014, 10:50 AM

I WILL!!! Christ almighty. Did it occur to anyone that I might be busy paging through 600 bowling centers at the moment??

Fine, I'll change it right now….and then wait for the next MWhite problem with some minute thing….then I'll go back to the bowling centers.

And noeymc….you lost me at not being sure why I'm attaching.

As usual making it more difficult than it really needs to be. Just let the competitors choose a center they want. Then like you had previously stated, if at your home center -10 pins. Done.

Mudpuppy

04-12-2014, 11:02 AM

As usual making it more difficult than it really needs to be. Just let the competitors choose a center they want. Then like you had previously stated, if at your home center -10 pins. Done.

I thought each competitor could choose 5 centers that they would bowl at and then they rotate throughout those. Yes home center(s) are -10 per Aslan.

Bunny

04-12-2014, 11:10 AM

Just let the competitors choose a center they want. Then like you had previously stated, if at your home center -10 pins. Done.

I concur. Seems a lot easier. :)

Aslan

04-12-2014, 12:05 PM

I see participants and handicap - is there a list somewhere of where everyone is going to bowl?

Still working on it. Got tired last night and went to bed. Only a few more participants left to complete. Should be done this evening; tomorrow at the latest.

Aslan

04-12-2014, 12:16 PM

I thought each competitor could choose 5 centers that they would bowl at and then they rotate throughout those. Yes home center(s) are -10 per Aslan.
I don't recall that ever being on the table. Someone had mentioned it,but I don't think we ever went down that road.

As usual making it more difficult than it really needs to be. Just let the competitors choose a center they want. Then like you had previously stated, if at your home center -10 pins. Done.
Yes, it is more difficult than I thought it would be. But thats just because:
A) I made the redius too large.
B) I vastly underestimated how many bowling centers there are.

But I'm almost done, so it's something to reconsider next time around.

I concur. Seems a lot easier. :)
It was done this way for a "good reason". I just didn't grasp how difficult the center generation process would be (or I would have started it earlier). Essentially, since it's a Tour, I wanted to make sure all the bowlers were on as equal a playing field as possible. Since we all can't physically bowl in the same houses (thus "virtual" tour)….I wanted to make the equal footing the fact that we'd likely be bowling in houses that are strange to us.

This is very important because center to center can change a great deal…AND…we have some bowlers that are very used to certain houses. Making them go to a house, even one that they play less frequently, levels the playing field. In addition, it gets people to explore a bit…maybe play somewhere they normally wouldn't…which I think adds a little excitement/adventure to the whole thing.

I'll still probably have to do a lot of re-drawing for safety and distance related challenges, but thats no big deal. I just wanted to get away from the idea of bowling at 3 centers the participants know….or bowl in leagues or travel leagues….because then we might as well scratch the entire idea and just have everyone submit their league scoresheets each week.

ALL: Check for an update to the other thread tonight or sometime tomorrow. Afterwards I'll check back to see if there are any challenges where I need to redraw…or you can PM me or email me to re-draw. But remember, safety and/or distance will be the 2 valid reasons. "I don't like that place" or "the general manager there is a $*%^" are examples of less valid reasons.

ALMOST THERE!!!

Mudpuppy

04-12-2014, 02:09 PM

Good stuff Asian
Like Bernie Mack in Mr 3000 we can always count on you to do your thing

Mike White

04-12-2014, 02:35 PM

I guess it's torture Aslan time again.

These first two quotes were from the Billy Hardwick thread.

If possible, schedule April 5th for your wood lanes before they disappear.

They said it would be in April, now I heard June. So its hard to say. I posted the proposed schedule on the other thread. We could always move them around as needed.

If you guys don't like the proposed centers, we could always just each pick our 3 favorites and do it that way.

The rest of the quotes are from this thread

As usual making it more difficult than it really needs to be. Just let the competitors choose a center they want. Then like you had previously stated, if at your home center -10 pins. Done.

I thought each competitor could choose 5 centers that they would bowl at and then they rotate throughout those. Yes home center(s) are -10 per Aslan.

I don't recall that ever being on the table. Someone had mentioned it,but I don't think we ever went down that road.

The original idea for a monthly tour was to have 5 locations. You came up with the "pick our 3 favorites"

noeymc

04-12-2014, 03:42 PM

hey aslan if u got oberlin lanes on my list take it off its hand written scores in that ally still unless u guys will take my hand written score but just making sure you know before it comes up and is a problem

J Anderson

04-12-2014, 10:33 PM

Aslan

04-13-2014, 12:08 AM

Using the USBC Sport average adjustment chart a 170 sport average equates to a 193 average on a house shot. That makes at least 18 extra pins of handicap for me if you don't change it.

My bad, I will change it. You have 2 averages listed. Are they both sport averages? You have a 170 and a 167. The 170 has the little icon next to it which I'm assuming means a "sport league". But the 167 does not have that icon. Averaging the 2 together will give you a 180 with 36 pins handicap. Is that more accurate?

Aslan

04-13-2014, 02:07 AM

Just so everyone knows;

The centers HAVE been posted. For the sake of time, I automatically re-drew centers over 45 miles away. Of course, you have the option of bowling in the original center drawn if you would rather….I just assumed most people wouldn't want to.

I also posted the physical pairings for California participants. This month it'll be Bunny and MWhite…most likely at Deer Creek Lanes in Rancho Cucamonga. They have the option of doing it at Mike's other 2 draws (Palos Verdes and Gardena Bowling Center) but I doubt either of them will want those two centers given the distance, location, etc…

I also posted the virtual pairings that will be the people who are actually bowling against each other this month.

Any issues/questions….post them here so we can try to keep that thread as clean as possible. Good Luck!

J Anderson

04-13-2014, 07:37 AM

My bad, I will change it. You have 2 averages listed. Are they both sport averages? You have a 170 and a 167. The 170 has the little icon next to it which I'm assuming means a "sport league". But the 167 does not have that icon. Averaging the 2 together will give you a 180 with 36 pins handicap. Is that more accurate?

No, the 167 is opposite hand (lefty).

J Anderson

04-13-2014, 07:42 AM

Just so everyone knows;

I also posted the virtual pairings that will be the people who are actually bowling against each other this month.

Let the trash talk begin!

Mike White

04-13-2014, 09:37 AM

Let the trash talk begin!

My recycle can is full to the top, I really need to empty that this Thursday.

My yard waste can however is empty. Mikey don't like doing yard work.

Oh, wait. This is the wrong kind of trash talk.

Mike White

04-13-2014, 11:14 AM

You have to realize, every rule, no matter how complicated, is designed to ensure MWhite can't have an excuse for losing. :D

There is only one rule that can ensure MWhite can't have an excuse for losing.

Rule #1, MWhite wins.

Mike White

04-13-2014, 11:24 AM

noeymc

04-13-2014, 11:37 AM

mike dont lie cuz the #1 rule is grass is green blue is orange and noah wins

also Aslan i have never even heard of seven hills lol i will have to find it

MICHAEL

04-13-2014, 12:11 PM

If Iceman does NOT stop his temper tantrum and step up to represent Missouri....then Missouri (and Iceman) are DEAD TO ME!! Come on Ice!!

Irony...if Iceman bowls a 300 during the Tour and then is forced to tell us about it. DOHT!!!

Hey,,, I think its GREAT what your doing in regards to time and effort for this tournament. Maybe the next one lets have a pure who is the REAL BEST BOWLER, SCRATCH tournament.

It's not that I think I would win....lol,,, It's like a special Olympics' when you add the handicap factor. If I win, I win,,, I don't like handicap bowing either. (((BUT ITS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to find a Scratch league around here, or anywhere else))).

When I ran track at William Jewell College,,, and I knew that a another runner had better times then me, they didn't give me a 40 yard jump on the guy, just because he was faster. (ran the 1/4 mile, 440 yard dash)

I am not that GREAT of a Bowler, but on a given day, I can beat anyone! I have seen even the best Pro's have GREAT days and Poor day! For sure their GOOD ones are much more common then their poor ones!

I would like to see 4 or 5 man/woman teams, scratch representing each STATE! My team scratch would be, The Dude, The Beast, Gene, Manic and Iceman! Maybe next the next one would be a lot simpler..... SCRATCH

GOOD LUCK with your tournament..... with handicap its real hard for me to say, may the best person win..... but sounds like a lot of FUN!

I will be watching, form here!

Aslan

04-13-2014, 12:52 PM

I don't like handicap bowing either. (((BUT ITS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to find a Scratch league around here, or anywhere else))).

Ice, you know I have respect for ya and think you're a stand-up guy and all…but hearing bowlers talk about how all bowling should be scratch when they themselves are in all handicap leagues….is lame. And don't give me that, "it's so hard to find a scratch league" nonsense. You have SO many options whether scratch leagues or tournament play…yet you CHOOSE to just play in a couple handicap leagues in your one house that you know. Hell, I've even played in a tournament already and I'm nowhere NEAR your talent level! Not saying your concerns aren't legitimate…I'm sure sport leagues are harder to find…but until you find them….criticzing handicap play is ridiculous.

Everyone has to go out and play their best. If vdub can't bowl his average…and ZDawg bowls 40 pins above his…zdawg was the better bowler. All handicap does is close the "experience gap".

also Aslan i have never even heard of seven hills lol i will have to find it
#2 on my list of things that surprised me while making the center list = all you people whining that there aren't many centers near you…you'd be SHOCKED at how many centers are near you.

Smallest number I think was 13 for ZDawg (sorry, but San Diego sucks for bowling centers)…followed by tccstudent (16) because Oklahoma is, well, Oklahoma. I think the one with the most centers within 90 miles was Mudpuppy…148 centers!! But there were lots of choices!! Which is why it took me so damn long to make the lists. And it didn't help that 4 of our bowlers are from traditionally strong bowling areas like Detroit area, Chicago area, New York area, and Missouri not to mention with the exception of classy granny, noeymc, vdub, and stormed….all the other 8 participants lived near enough to state/USBC chapter borders that I had to take into account more than 1 state/chapter when creating their list. I mean, Janderson's state is barely 90 miles across and borders 3 states and he's almost within 90 miles of a 4th. Much different challenge than tic student where there's really only 1-2 cities with a stoplight in a 90-mile radius.

Ok, based on the criteria above, how did you assign me a 195 average? That was from 2 summers ago.

And how did you assign 151 to yourself. You commented above how you would be 165-166.
As stated, a bowler's average will be their average or composite average of the last year listed on Bowl.com. ONLY IF they do not have an average listed nor USBC number will league scoresheets be used.

Since you had averages listed, those most current averages were used from Bowl.com. Since I did not have averages listed, my average is a composite of both my leagues from 2013 which comes out to a 151. Had my 165 average been listed on USBC, I would have just used that and ignored my upper 130s average from the non-sanctioned league I was in with Bunny. But, since it wasn't listed in time for the averages to be established, per the rules, a composite based on scoresheets was used. And we can't necessarily "throw out" non-sanctioned averages since we have a few participants that are non-USBC members and those are the only scores they have. Bunny's average is based on the same non-sanctioned league that my 2nd average was generated in.

As for the average used the 2nd month. Your example is the ONLY time I've ever seen the first session's entry average used in computing the average to be used in the 2nd session.

In the real world, you either continue to use the entering average, or you take total pins divided by games bowled. Again, not a good idea to reinvent the wheel.
There is a good reason for doing it this way. This league is unusually short. We're going to have roughly 7 months bowling once per month. That makes using established averages difficult. Most leagues take a few weeks to establish an average…and shorter leagues (10-weeks) always have trouble with sandbaggers. Using the average in the calculation keeps your performances the next 7 weeks grounded in reality. It's less possible to sandbag…and you're less harmed if you have a rare 800 series out of the gate.

You for example…if you bowl a 120, 120, 102…that will lower you average into the 140s and obviously help you going forward…but not AS MUCH as if you got to start in the 120s. In the same respect, if you bowl an 800 series…you don't have to drop out of the tournament after month 1…because you start next moth with a 700 series average…more reasonable.

It's simply a way to keep averages somewhat grounded in reality for a shorter than average league.

Even though we have an even # of entries, the Bye / Absent score thing needs to be agreed upon, because as this thing winds down, there will be people who realize they can't qualify for the finals, and will probably drop out.

I thought we already decided…but I'll re-state:

If you bowl against a player that does not show or does not bowl or does not make an attempt to get their scores in on time…you bowl against their average (at the time) minus 10 pins from their handicap.

If we have bowlers enter the tournament late…and it gives us an odd number of participants…the person bowling against an open spot will be drawn an opponent to bowl against…and then 2 players will be bowling against said opponent (DRAW SYSTEM).

No, the 167 is opposite hand (lefty).

I'll reset the average based on your right hand. So it'll be the adjusted 193.

Gotta Go! I'm gonna bowl my series this morning!! Get it out of the way early!!

noeymc

04-13-2014, 01:24 PM

i've never complained about having bowling allys i just never go that way cuz i hate cleveland traffic and that is right on the way. i know there are a **** load by me lol

MICHAEL

04-13-2014, 02:33 PM

Find me some scratch leagues at either of my AMF,,, here in the Kansas city area! LOL.... DON"T GET ME WRONG,,, Its not that Iceman thinks he in one HELL OF A BOWLER....LOL, its just what I call REAL DEAL! I win, or I lose simple level playing field! If I get beat, then he/she is a better bowler THAT DAY! But,,,, but on any given day even a avocado can shine!

Sooooo many arguments over what a fair handicap should be,,,, what lanes to bowl ,,, how far should you have to drive for the $25.00!

Let people choose their own lanes, close to home, or make the pot worth the drive! Say 2500.00 bucks! (:) Have a alley manager verify that the scores were not tampered with, like when you prebowl! POST A PICTURE of the score board, use your cell phone to take that picture, along with the managements verification! (most managers would do it, they want your business).

I would say the hardest part of this is the honesty issue! MOST PEOPLE, 95 percent in my opinion are HONEST! But its that last 5 percent that, well need I say more??

MY AMF, at Vivion here in Kansas city does not have a scratch league, nor are any of it's tournaments! Give them a call!

I guess I can search some independent lanes, and probably will!

Winning to ME, is WINNING, not giving me pins!

I know this subject has been hashed around a bunch, but this is JUST MY THOUGHTS and opinions, and you know what they say about OPINIONS!!

Looking forward to seeing who wins your tournament,,,,, I know who I think that person might be,,,,, I had a DREAM last night,,,, it was ????

MICHAEL

04-13-2014, 02:40 PM

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/question-mark_zpsfd51b279.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/question-mark_zpsfd51b279.jpg.html)

I had a dream,,,, My dreams seem to be right on the MONEY! Why I dreamed of Aslan's tournament is beyond me! But I think it was sent from a higher power... so that I can place a wager in Vegas!!!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg546/imagine686868/vegas_zps15fa8e7b.jpg (http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/imagine686868/media/vegas_zps15fa8e7b.jpg.html)

Mike White

04-13-2014, 03:15 PM

As stated, a bowler's average will be their average or composite average of the last year listed on Bowl.com. ONLY IF they do not have an average listed nor USBC number will league scoresheets be used.

Since you had averages listed, those most current averages were used from Bowl.com. Since I did not have averages listed, my average is a composite of both my leagues from 2013 which comes out to a 151. Had my 165 average been listed on USBC, I would have just used that and ignored my upper 130s average from the non-sanctioned league I was in with Bunny. But, since it wasn't listed in time for the averages to be established, per the rules, a composite based on scoresheets was used. And we can't necessarily "throw out" non-sanctioned averages since we have a few participants that are non-USBC members and those are the only scores they have. Bunny's average is based on the same non-sanctioned league that my 2nd average was generated in.

Ok I see where to went off the tracks.

My averages listed for 2013-2014 so far are 198 for 3 games as a sub, and 192 for 30 games as a late season replacement.

You took the 198, and added it to 192, giving 390, then divided that by 2, giving 195.

That is not how a composite average works.

The proper way (since we don't have access to the actual pin totals, just the avg and games) is to take
198 * 3 = 594,
192 * 30 = 5760,

3 + 30 = 33,
594 + 5760 = 6354,

6354 / 33 = 192 which is my composite average.

If you got that one wrong, who knows how many other ones you got wrong.

There is a good reason for doing it this way. This league is unusually short. We're going to have roughly 7 months bowling once per month. That makes using established averages difficult. Most leagues take a few weeks to establish an average…and shorter leagues (10-weeks) always have trouble with sandbaggers. Using the average in the calculation keeps your performances the next 7 weeks grounded in reality. It's less possible to sandbag…and you're less harmed if you have a rare 800 series out of the gate.

Yes, there is a reason, and it's because you like to reinvent the wheel. But no, it's not a good one.

If you really are worried about sandbaggers, then use the entry average for all the weeks.

That way people aren't harmed by bowling good, and sandbagging (in this competition) is of no value.

noeymc

04-13-2014, 03:57 PM

if it was scratch you wouldnt have to worry about sandbagging =D

Aslan

04-13-2014, 05:13 PM

i've never complained about having bowling allys i just never go that way cuz i hate cleveland traffic and that is right on the way. i know there are a **** load by me lol

Well you're in luck kiddo!! Seven Hills is Northeast of Strongsville, well south of Cleveland…so if the 480 takes ya too close to Cleveland, jump on the good ole I-80 and you'll be there in 30 minutes +/-.

Sooooo many arguments over what a fair handicap should be,,,, what lanes to bowl ,,, how far should you have to drive for the $25.00!

Let people choose their own lanes, close to home, or make the pot worth the drive! Say 2500.00 bucks! (:) Have a alley manager verify that the scores were not tampered with, like when you prebowl! POST A PICTURE of the score board, use your cell phone to take that picture, along with the managements verification! (most managers would do it, they want your business).
This coming from the guy that routinely bowls 300s at his home center. Why not just use league scores then? Every week, each of us bowls in a league…no need to even "try"…most of us post our scores on this website after we bowl anyways.

I would say the hardest part of this is the honesty issue! MOST PEOPLE, 95 percent in my opinion are HONEST! But its that last 5 percent that, well need I say more??
I'd say it's more like 45% are honest…but I guess I have less faith in humanity. Your craziness aside, I KNOW you'd be honest. You and me have that rare quality where if it's not worth winning honestly, then no matter what the actual prize, it's not worth winning. Most people I fear would cheat to win a trophy and stare at that trophy everyday…a testament to how awesome they are at cheating. Thats sad.

Winning to ME, is WINNING, not giving me pins!
Then you'd like my ideas regarding how to fix league bowling. A system where new bowlers start in no tap and based on their averages are able to move up to beginner/handiicaps leagues…then once their average is high enough, they automatically graduate to scratch leagues. If they do poorly, they move back down to handicap leagues, etc… A system like that forces all the 200+ bowlers sitting in handicap leagues complaining about handicaps…to move up. And it would create more sport/scratch leagues because there suddenly would be a need for them. Problem solved.

As to further discussions about averages and handicaps and all that….the averages are set, the handicap is set…it's time to stop jabbering and BOWL! Aslan has already bowled his series!! Now I just wait for the scores to start rolling in!!! Once I receive scores for BOTH competitors (bowling each other), I will post them. But I'd rather not post any results until BOTH have bowled so nobody has the unfair advantage of a "target" to bowl towards. I won't provide tr33frog a target by elaborating on my performance accept to say that no records were broken today, thats for sure! This bowling at a strange center with only one game of warm-up…not as easy as it may sound. ; )

classygranny

04-13-2014, 09:41 PM

Well, it appears we may have our first forfeit unless the powers to be/whoever decides (Aslan, vdubtx, a once saw a committee of three) to give me a redraw. I just researched the AMF in Chandler and here's my "excuses" - such as they are...

The AMF/Chandler opens at 5:00pm Mon-Thur and 4:00pm on Fri. They only open at Noon on the weekends. Here's the problem. Next weekend is my anniversary/weekend trip, and the next weekend I will be working on Saturday (so I can go on vacation in May) and Sunday is a ballgame event. My intent was to bowl this during the week so I didn't interfere with "family" time. As most of you know, my husband isn't much of a bowler, so we have agreed that we will keep our own sports out of our family time - except he does afford me Monday evenings for league. I just can't in my heart, take 45 min to an hour to drive to the SE valley to bowl for an hour (for bragging rights & $25) during our normal dinner time. Sorry, but my relationship is more important than my bowling. I need an alley that has some daytime hours so I can stop by during the weekday to bowl. If whoever decides on a redraw, understands this - great; if not, good luck vdubtx, sorry (:<.

Aslan

04-13-2014, 10:34 PM

Well, it appears we may have our first forfeit unless the powers to be/whoever decides (Aslan, vdubtx, a once saw a committee of three) to give me a redraw. I just researched the AMF in Chandler and here's my "excuses" - such as they are...

The AMF/Chandler opens at 5:00pm Mon-Thur and 4:00pm on Fri. They only open at Noon on the weekends. Here's the problem. My intent was to bowl this during the week so I didn't interfere with "family" time.

Thats a legitimate reason. I tried to screen centers that were chosen to make sure they were "semi-legitimate" but I forgot AMF is COMPLETE GARBAGE. I guess I need to double check the hours…I can't BELIEVE they aren't open till 5PM every single weekday except one…just stupid.

Your re-draw is:
Bell Lanes, Sun City AZ. < 45 miles, opens at 8AM every day I think.

I hope that helps!

- Aslan

P.S. Classygranny, please give them a call 623-876-3050 and double check that it is open to the public. Since Sun City (you already know this but others may not) is a weird type of retirement community…they have goofy policies sometimes about non-residents of Sun City at some of the businesses. I was going to call and verify but it's too late at night right now.

classygranny

04-13-2014, 10:56 PM

Your re-draw is:
Bell Lanes, Sun City AZ. < 45 miles, opens at 8AM every day I think.

I hope that helps!

- Aslan

P.S. Classygranny, please give them a call 623-876-3050 and double check that it is open to the public. Since Sun City (you already know this but others may not) is a weird type of retirement community…they have goofy policies sometimes about non-residents of Sun City at some of the businesses. I was going to call and verify but it's too late at night right now.

Unfortunately, you will need to remove Bell Lanes & Lakeview Lanes. Direct from the website of Bell Lanes:

"•RCSC cardholders and their guests may participate in open play and league play at both Bell Lanes and Lakeview Lanes.
•Non-RCSC cardholders can bowl in leagues as long as league rules allow it."

I don't know anyone currently living in Sun City that is a RCSC cardholder and bowler. I may know one if they hold a RCSC card, but they have returned to their summer home already. Oh, RCSC=Recreation Centers of Sun City.

Oh, and thanks for being understanding on the hours. Some of our AMFs are normal, others are extreme - catering to lots of "cosmic" bowling.

Mudpuppy

04-13-2014, 11:13 PM

Parkway in Trenton is now 10 Pins of Trenton. Looks like it isn't a USBC alley. I can still bowl there or one of the others that were originally picked. Just want to make sure before I bowl. Also we have to bowl by April 30?

vdubtx

04-14-2014, 09:41 AM

So many issues are going to come up about various centers since the info on USBC site is/has been out dated.

Will be less time involved on your part Aslan if you just let the participants pick their own centers.

You are making this too difficult, and I can say for certainty that if you draw me for a Ft. Worth or Mid-Cities(Arlington, Grand Prairie, Hurst etc) center I will not be driving to those centers.

classygranny

04-14-2014, 10:27 AM

Aslan, maybe you could send the compiled lists to each of us and let us mark the ones we accept, rather than having so many redraws. It eliminates having to wait one more day for a bowling assignment. If we agree for it to be on the list, there should be very few redraws.

Aslan

04-14-2014, 10:46 AM

Unfortunately, you will need to remove Bell Lanes & Lakeview Lanes. Direct from the website of Bell Lanes:

"•RCSC cardholders and their guests may participate in open play and league play at both Bell Lanes and Lakeview Lanes.
•Non-RCSC cardholders can bowl in leagues as long as league rules allow it."

I don't know anyone currently living in Sun City that is a RCSC cardholder and bowler.

Not a problem. Your re-draw is Brunswick Kyrene Lanes, Chandler. The hours look good and it's less than 19 miles.

Parkway in Trenton is now 10 Pins of Trenton. Looks like it isn't a USBC alley. I can still bowl there or one of the others that were originally picked. Just want to make sure before I bowl. Also we have to bowl by April 30?

It's up to you. If you feel that it's no longer an adequate center and is no longer something that would meet USBC standards, I can re-draw. Lord knows there are plenty of options (nearly 150) in your area. Otherwise, have at it!

Yes, by April 30th.

So many issues are going to come up about various centers since the info on USBC site is/has been out dated. Yes; annoying. But manageable.

Will be less time involved on your part Aslan if you just let the participants pick their own centers.
Yes. Less time. But actually pointless since they'll pick the centers they are used to. It would be less work to just draw names out of hat and declare them winner…but I wouldn't think that would be a good idea.

At this point, what will be helpful is if people actually get out there and bowl. I think once we actually start this ball rolling down the hill; it'll gain acceptance and momentum and people will see it's really not that bad and is kinda fun. We're spending far too much time in the thread debating about 0.6 pins handicap or where to bowl/not to bowl when what we really should be doing is BOWLING.

Lets get out there and do this thing and see how month #1 goes before killing it.

You are making this too difficult, and I can say for certainty that if you draw me for a Ft. Worth or Mid-Cities(Arlington, Grand Prairie, Hurst etc) center I will not be driving to those centers.
The draw process is actually quite simple. There is a list of centers within 90 miles…each is assigned a number…the computer randomly selects the number. For sake of time and convenience, I automatically re-draw centers over 45 miles away (unless it's a potential zdawg meet-up site). I also review the selection (briefly) to ensure its a center that is accessible. For example, I've drawn centers on Indian reservations and centers inside corporate headquarters…not accessible to the public…so they got automatically removed from the list. If it's in an inner city area, I'll sometimes do a quick "safety check" using published FBI crime data to re-draw if there's a safety issue. I failed to do that for KC Bowl thinking KC, Missouri was the issue not KC Kansas…but I was mistaken…no bigee. With Mudpuppy's draw in Jackson, knowing that state well, I knew that was a potential safety issue.

So, as to your case, your original draw was Main Event Frisco but after checking the website found out the "Main Event" centers aren't really good for our kind of bowling. It's a place where they turn the lights out every other hour to add "excitement". So then I drew USA bowl which seems to be a legitimate center and within decent driving distance.

It's not a big deal (time) for me to manage the thing and get it off the ground. It's going to be more challenging early on as we iron out some wrinkles…but at this point we just need people to go out, bowl, and get their scores in. Obviously I want to make it as accessible as possible…I don't want to discourage anyone from participating, etc… But at some point we have to draw a line and say, "Okay…enough talky talky…go BOWL…if any issues arise we'll deal with them as we go along.

Bunny

04-14-2014, 11:45 AM

Yes. Less time. But actually pointless since they'll pick the centers they are used to.

Who cares if they do. That's what the -10 pins is for.

Aslan

04-14-2014, 01:12 PM

Who cares if they do. That's what the -10 pins is for.

Well, the 10 pins may not be enough. There were actually multiple reasons to do the randomized center idea. I've went over them, but I guess I'll summarize them here:

1) It further levels the playing field. Handicap is great for leveling experience, but having to bowl at a center you are not used to can further level the playing field, especially for those people that have very favorable home centers or have been bowling in multiple leagues at a center for many years.

So why have their centers eligible with the 10 pin deduction? Answer: The fear was, that for some areas...if we excluded home centers, due to lack of viable centers, there wouldn't be enough centers.

2) It creates a "tournament environment". Ideally we'd all meet in person at ONE location...playing field leveled...everyone playing under the same conditions. Since this is a "virtual" tournament...we can't do that. So we have to find a way to give the bowler that same "feel" of showing up in a strange place and bowling against strangers on a lane you have limited knowledge of. That requires making the participants go somewhere other than their home center(s).

3) It adds adventure and a challenge to what otherwise would be just people bowling in their leagues and reporting their scores. I know many of us are "old foggees"...but sometimes it's exciting to get out of that usual routine and do something a little different.

4) It limits cheating in 2 ways. First, you won't necessarily have a relationship with the alley...so they're less likely to help you cheat. Second, it's unlikely that you're going to drive over 20 miles to a strange center, bowl, then decide 2 days later you didn't like those scores and bowl again (because you'd have to make another trip). It certainly doesn't erase the potential for cheating or solve it...just further helps to avoid it.

5) Early on, it was an idea that would allow those of us near each other to bowl against each other. Now, participation was less than hoped for so many people will be bowling solo...but for the California contingent...it gives us a way to meet each other in person, on a neutral site. And I have always strongly contended that there is value in that...both because it limits the potential for cheating (adds a witness) AND because it allows us all to meet each other and be "friends"...it puts a username with a face.

Take the 1st Annual.....blah blah blah...long name Invitational for example. Having Mike bowl on a lane he was not familiar with...absolutely leveled the playing field. Now, Mike is a better bowler than me and Zdawg...so he adjusted quicker and turned out a decent Game 2 and Game 3. It also allowed us to all meet each other and (even though you'd never guess based on Mike torturing me constantly) become "friendly". And...there was no cheating...couldn't have been any...3 players = 2 witnesses and the whole thing was videotaped.

If April were not a shortened month with a holiday wedged in there...I'd have even considered driving to San Diego to face ZDawg on his home alley...just can't do it this month. Had he drawn a center outside San Diego proper...I probably would have joined him in person.....it's just more FUN to bowl WITH someone than by yourself like a hermit.

Now, if there's a Season 2...is the new Director going to keep the random center concept? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not, maybe they change it a little...it's all good. But there is a METHOD behind the MADNESS...it's not just a rule quirk designed to get classygranny to quit. : ) And I DO still believe that if everyone gives it a shot...they may actually LIKE it. I know traffic sucks...I live in Orange County, CA....I had to bowl yesterday because on a weekday getting to Chino Hills between 3:30PM and 7:30PM would take 3 hours despite it being roughly 18 miles from my house. I GET IT....but I worked around it...and while I wasn't happy with the way I bowled...it was an interesting experience. I've driven by that center about 45 times and never even noticed it! It was a little too "fancy" for my tastes...but it was a very nice place.

vdubtx

04-14-2014, 01:31 PM

Well, the 10 pins may not be enough. There were actually multiple reasons to do the randomized center idea. I've went over them, but I guess I'll write a novel here:

People already stated which centers they bowl leagues in, other centers you could take it were not as familiar to them as they likely do not bowl there at all or even often.

Aslan

04-14-2014, 06:55 PM

People already stated which centers they bowl leagues in, other centers you could take it were not as familiar to them as they likely do not bowl there at all or even often.

Misquoting me is not helping you win. Go bowl or something.

The new contestants/participants have been added and everything is set for this ever-expanding 14-person tour.

Now that all the work has been done....I think I'll do some actual bowling tonight and get some practice in.

Mike White

04-16-2014, 12:54 PM

Are you going to fix the incorrectly calculated averages?
Or are you to busy to do things correctly?

Aslan

04-16-2014, 07:26 PM

Are you going to fix the incorrectly calculated averages?
Or are you to busy to do things correctly?

I'm not going back and re-calculating averages based on "games". In every case, the averages from one league to another were extremely close. Mine I think was the only one that differed significantly from one league to another.

So if a person averaged 192 over 35 games in one league, 194 over 21 games in another league, and 198 over 7 games in a third league...and I assign them a 195 average....is it a matter of National Crisis that their average be changed to 193?

This is why I initially resisted messing with the 0.6 pins of handicap rounding thing. It's a friendly exhibition tour...not the USBC Masters!! If we get THAT precise....then whats next? Inventing some formula that takes into account that a peson gets X pins better each month and thus we need to re-do all the averages from last year because the person is probably 1-2 pins better this year?

I mean for Pete's sake! It's ONE SERIES....it'll be 3 scores....of a total of 24 scores!! Is the difference between a 51 handicap and 52 handicap in April really going to matter? Can a person with a 198 average this season who last year bowled 7 games in a league and had a 199 average say wihtout a shadow of a doubt that the 199 was erroneous?? I mean, if I give someone a 201 average and they say, "whoa....look at my league averages...I'm a 192, 194, 191, 189 bowler and you gave me a 201"...then certainly THATs an issue. But most EVERY average I created that involved more than one previous league...we're talking:

- 173, 173, 178, 180
- 194, 189
- 198, 192
- 184, 186
- 169, 174, 177

Ya know what....I'll change em. Screw it. I'm sure it's just #2 on the list of stupid things to argue about rather than actually bowling...but I guess if it takes away ONE MORE excuse that MWhite will eventually have (and he WILL have many) as to why he didn't dominate the Tour...then I guess it's worth it. So yes...I'm going to update them right now.

Aslan

04-16-2014, 08:06 PM

Mike White

04-16-2014, 08:38 PM

Okay, averages updated to take into account games.

Changes (and they are updated in the official thread, this is just FYI):
- Aslan 151 to 156 (still gotta verify though because I need to see how many games the one league was)
- classygranny (same, 176)
- Mudpuppy 192 to 191
- MWhite 195 to 193
- tccstudent (same, 185)
- Jeral999ok 173 to 175

So...now that that is that...Lets get some SCORES rolling in!!!!

If you would just do them right the first time, it wouldn't seem like so much work.

Rule 118 – Averages
118a. How Determined
A bowling average is determined by dividing the total number of pins credited to a bowler in one USBC league by the number of games bowled in that league in a season.
Extra pins or fractions must be disregarded in using averages for handicapping or classification purposes and shall be reduced to a percentage of a pin only for the purpose of deciding individual position standings in a league.

118c
2. Composite Average: The average of a bowler who bowls in two or more USBC leagues in a season. The average is determined by adding the total pins for all of the leagues and dividing the result by the total number of games bowled in those leagues.

So go back are remove the rounding up.

zdawg

04-16-2014, 09:29 PM

So...now that that is that...Lets get some SCORES rolling in!!!!

Expect mine closer to the deadline for this month, I'm coming off a month of no bowling thanks to a tendon sprain in my bowling forearm. I have two weeks of league left, this Friday and next, so I'll bowl for April after that's done as the arm is still sore and I don't want to go through that again.

classygranny

04-16-2014, 10:42 PM

Sorry, just got out of tax season and finding out there is still a world out there including more bowling alleys that are difficult to get to...probably bowl mine the last week of April as I am trying to find something else to do when I travel an hour away for an hour of bowling...gotta be something work related so I can write off the mileage!

Mudpuppy

04-17-2014, 10:54 AM

Just got out of 3 days of meetings. Back at it in time for the 3 day weekend.

Mike White

04-19-2014, 07:23 PM

April Scores

Aslan

04-20-2014, 12:02 AM

April Scores

I don't quite understand this one. I thought your center was Deer Creek Lanes?

I'm going to have to go check. Either my spreadsheet is wrong or I posted it wrong.

Aslan

04-20-2014, 12:27 AM

I don't quite understand this one. I thought your center was Deer Creek Lanes?

I'm going to have to go check. Either my spreadsheet is wrong or I posted it wrong.
Yeah, I think there was a miscommunication. Below it shows that you had the choice of 3 lanes…

California Physical Pairings:
Bunny vs. MWhite: At Brunswick Deer Creek, Palos Verdes Bowl, or Gardena Bowling Center.

Now, I did receive an email from Bunny suggesting that she might not be able to do the match this month…so it's fine that you bowled solo….but it should have been at either Palos Verdes (too far away), Gardena Bowling Center (even MORE far away), or Deer Creek…which is fairly close to you.

You bowled at Chapparal300, which was my assigned center. ZDawg had the "option" of bowling against me there…but given his center was in San Diego and Chapparal300 is over 90 miles from him…I figured he wouldn't want that option.

I'm not sure how to handle this now. I never made a rule anticipating someone would bowl in the wrong place. Had there been an issue with that center (like I know you might only have Saturdays off and maybe your chosen center doesn't have bowling with the lights on, on Saturdays or something), if it's a valid reason in accordance with the rules, I definitely would re-draw.

For example, tcc and Jeral found out that their chosen center was all "glow bowling" when they wanted to do their match…so they just went to the center that was drawn that was over 45 miles away. Obviously, I didn't expect that and would have happily tried to re-draw them a center that was < 45 miles. But since the center they bowled at was on the list of originally drawn…it was legal…just inconvenient for them.

I'll add all the scores into my spreadsheet, but MudPuppy and the other Review Board members (I think ZDawg and someone else…not Bowl1820 because he didn't want to do it) are going to have to weigh in on what to do about MWhite's scores rolled at the wrong center. And, as input into that determination, I will just state the obvious problem with "just use his scores, no big deal"….is it sets a precedent. From here on out, people just could bowl wherever and claim, "well, MWhite was allowed to do it."

So…hmmmm…committee/review board???

Mike White

04-20-2014, 01:09 AM

Yeah, I think there was a miscommunication. Below it shows that you had the choice of 3 lanes…

California Physical Pairings:
Bunny vs. MWhite: At Brunswick Deer Creek, Palos Verdes Bowl, or Gardena Bowling Center.

Now, I did receive an email from Bunny suggesting that she might not be able to do the match this month…so it's fine that you bowled solo….but it should have been at either Palos Verdes (too far away), Gardena Bowling Center (even MORE far away), or Deer Creek…which is fairly close to you.

You bowled at Chapparal300, which was my assigned center. ZDawg had the "option" of bowling against me there…but given his center was in San Diego and Chapparal300 is over 90 miles from him…I figured he wouldn't want that option.

I'm not sure how to handle this now. I never made a rule anticipating someone would bowl in the wrong place. Had there been an issue with that center (like I know you might only have Saturdays off and maybe your chosen center doesn't have bowling with the lights on, on Saturdays or something), if it's a valid reason in accordance with the rules, I definitely would re-draw.

I received a text from Bunny indicating she had a (valid) reason for not being able to bowl at Deer Creek.

She sent you a email, and you responded with centers which were even worse (for her situation) than Deer Creek.

So between the two of us, we decided that Chaparral300 was reasonable for both of us.

I don't have a problem with Deer Creek, I've been there once in 2011, and once in 2012.

But to quote you, there is an "advantage" to bowling with another person rather than solo.

Blacksox1

04-20-2014, 11:17 PM

I knew that the virtual tour would have drama. But my expectations have been exceeded ! Thanks to all, with not any single person in mind, carry on !

vdubtx

04-20-2014, 11:47 PM

So…hmmmm…committee/review board???

Not on said "committee", but who cares what center he bowled in. If it was his home center -10, if not who cares?

noeymc

04-21-2014, 03:07 AM

they already bowled i vote let it go unless i miss read somthing just next time it cant happen

classygranny

04-21-2014, 11:41 AM

Mudpuppy

04-21-2014, 11:44 AM

Mudpuppy

04-21-2014, 11:48 AM

I don't see an issue, either, but not on committee.

Why can't we get the listing of our "targeted" centers and then pick from there? Some months its easier for me to go West rather than Southeast - it would be easier to coordinate the alley, with my travels rather than with the random selection. I'm sure I'm not the only one that may experience that seeing that we are all busy and with the price of gas try to make each trip worthwhile.

I agree - come up with a list of acceptable centers and let the people choose. Gives more flexibility. I don't even care if you take the home centers off the list as long as it doesn't significantly narrow the person's options - i.e. like for me it would be no issue with the large number of lanes around me. But for someone in a more remote area it might not be possible to do so. And in my opinion we need to discuss a couple of options: 1. Say you have a list of 6 centers - if you bowl in Center A in April then in May you have to choose one of the other centers or 2. You can bowl in Center A for April and every other month but once you bowl there if you repeat the next month -10 or something like you would for your home center. Then it encourages people not to just bowl in the same lanes but also leaves the option open to bowl somewhere that is in reasonable travel distance, etc.

Mike White

04-21-2014, 11:59 AM

Not on said "committee", but who cares what center he bowled in. If it was his home center -10, if not who cares?

Aslan cares, he likes to live in a world where his random number generator has the final say.

vdubtx

04-21-2014, 01:08 PM

Aslan cares, he likes to live in a world where his random number generator has the final say.

I vote impeach!! LOL

Mudpuppy

04-21-2014, 02:16 PM

I disagree - Aslan is just trying to follow the specific rule set he came up with to keep it fair to everyone.

vdubtx

04-21-2014, 08:28 PM

I disagree - Aslan is just trying to follow the specific rule set he came up with to keep it fair to everyone.

Was making a joke....hence the LOL. :cool:

Aslan

04-22-2014, 01:52 AM

I vote noeymc is part of the committee if he isn't already and his vote stands to let the scores be valid and I also vote to let the scores stand. Zdawg, I believe 3rd member of the committee can vote yeah or neigh, but it would just be a formality if everyone agrees with noeymc on the committee and then his vote and mine is 2/3. Judgement stands. Mike's scores are valid. I have not received anything from Bunny as of yet.

This should serve as notice though - you have to bowl in one of the houses Aslan draws (he drew several for each player) or request a redraw with a valid reason. I am not sure I agree with the thought process of why he bowled where he did but I don't want to drag this out either and I don't feel it affected his scores positive or negative.
I am in the same position Mudpuppy. Deer Creek Lanes was a very good location for Bunny/MWhite. It was <40 miles from Bunny and < 20 miles from MWhite. Now Bunny did mention she believed it to be a safety concern…but the bottom line is Rancho Cucamonga is actually SAFER, statistics-wise, than Chino or Riverside. I'm not sure if Chapparal300 is in Chino or Chino Hills (Chino Hills is statistically safer)…but Bunny's home center is actually in a less safe area (statistically) than Rancho Cucamonga…as is my home center!

So, while I certainly don't want people dodging gang drive-bys in order to participate…we also have to have some type of "rules" in place or pretty soon everyone will just go wherever and claim it's safer. What if they have to drive "by" an area that isn't safe? Stormed1 lives south of Chicago…where there's NO safe areas…do we make him drive 50 miles to North of Chicago so he's "safer"?

I agree - come up with a list of acceptable centers and let the people choose. Gives more flexibility.
That is a valid idea.

I don't even care if you take the home centers off the list as long as it doesn't significantly narrow the person's options - i.e. like for me it would be no issue with the large number of lanes around me. But for someone in a more remote area it might not be possible to do so.
Correct. While you have 148 centers within 90 miles…some people have as few as 13.

And in my opinion we need to discuss a couple of options: 1. Say you have a list of 6 centers - if you bowl in Center A in April then in May you have to choose one of the other centers or 2. You can bowl in Center A for April and every other month but once you bowl there if you repeat the next month -10 or something like you would for your home center. Then it encourages people not to just bowl in the same lanes but also leaves the option open to bowl somewhere that is in reasonable travel distance, etc.

I'd prefer they bowl in a different center each month.

One thing I've thought of doing is handing over the reins to Mudpuppy. I can furnish him the lists of centers, etc.. I'll take his spot on the "council" with noeymc and ZDawg. And I'll still participate. I just think this "random centers" thing is potentially going to kill the Tour before it ever gets started. While some folks are eager and adventurous…I think there is a another significant contingent that are just too dead set against the concept. And like I told Bunny when I emailed her back…she's NOT going to be the last one with this issue. I don't want her to feel like "she's the problem"…because she's not…this was BOUND to happen…if not this month then next month, etc… I feel like I am too biased FOR the randomized centers because I spent the better part of a week putting those lists together…so I'm kinda invested in it. And I still feel it's the fairest way to do it…while also adding that "uncomfortableness" of tournament play where you're in a strange place, bowling a limited # of games that count. I feel like if we do some kind of "choose your own"…folks that have bowled at multiple centers in their area will have a distinct advantage. But, I'm willing to step aside and let Mudpuppy take it from here if thats better for the Tour as a whole.

Mudpuppy

04-22-2014, 02:20 PM

Mudpuppy

04-22-2014, 02:21 PM

Was making a joke....hence the LOL. :cool:

10-4 I know :)

Aslan

04-22-2014, 06:34 PM

I don't think you should step aside. You put a ton of work into this and I want to see it be successful for season 1 with your model. In professional sports - such as baseball or football, whatever name your sport - they set the rules at the beginning of the season and that is what they run with. Agreed.

Is there anyone currently that won't / can't bowl because of these rules? I don't think so. If there is anyone can we resolve their issue(s) without affecting the overall fairness of the competition? I really think we can make this work and I will support it any way I can.
I think if the next person "decides" to bowl somewhere non-assigned and the decision is to invalidate their scores...them and probably others would definitely quit. Before the Bunny/MWhite rebellion (joking) decided to "Choose Their Own Adventure" and bowl at a non-designated center...Bunny would have lost 4 points for not bowling at her assigned center...I think she'd have quit if that was the case...especially if her May draw was equally unacceptable to her.

There is always comments and opinions - don't take it personal. Your overall style obviously invites controversy sometimes. No big deal. Just go with it. I just think there is a lot of chatter. By month 2 or 3 it will die down and we can just enjoy this unique competition that you have come up with.

I don't take it personally. I realize the push back is more about the "random center assignement" than about me personally.

Alright....here's the deal. Everyone has their assigned centers for April...with the exception of MWhite and Bunny (although I still don't have Bunny's scores....I have MWhite's and not Bunny's...if they bowled together I would think she'd be able to get me her's by Friday)....everyone is to bowl at the assigned centers.

FOR MAY....I will list the centers for each of you...and it is up to you, as soon as you can....to pick SIX of the centers from your list. Those are the six that will be randomly generated. The only rule is you can't pick the center you bowled at in April. I will still rendomly generate the centers but ONLY from the list of six you've chosen. You STILL will lose 10 pins handicap per game for bowling at a home center...so keep that in mind.

That is fair...it should eliminate ALL issues we've had with random centers to date...and the decision is FINAL. If one of your 6 is 71 miles away...then you should live in a less butttastic area that has more bowling alleys...not my problem. And if you "decide" not to bowl at the center drawn (from YOUR list of 6)...for whatever reason....not withstanding a fire or earthquake or grizzly bear on the loose...your scores don't count...and I don't care. Don't like the preceeding 2 sentences?? Don't care....VOTE MUDPUPPY 2015.

Debate over....go bowl....get me scores...lets get month #1 in the books before I develop an ulcer.

tr33frog

04-22-2014, 10:31 PM

Do we have till this Friday, or the end of the month?

vdubtx

04-22-2014, 11:07 PM

Have until April 30th to get your scores in.

noeymc

04-23-2014, 12:44 PM

zdawg

04-23-2014, 02:22 PM

Here's a quick question, for this month I drew my home center and I have league night on Friday (at that center)...can I use my league night scores this week? The only real difference is that I won't get a full practice game in, since we have 5 people on each team sharing the 10 minute warmup period I usually get about 3-4 frames worth of shots if I'm lucky.

Not a huge deal either way, I can always go back either Saturday or Sunday since its not that far from my apartment, I just figured since I'm already going to be bowling there Friday night might as well check if that's ok to use those scores.

Aslan

04-23-2014, 02:46 PM

I thought I put this in the rules but may have forgotten, a participant canNOT use their league scores. This should be a seperate event, 1 game pf practice, then 3 games. Preferably on 2 alternating lanes...but if you can only reserve a single lane...so be it. But I don't like the idea of it being during league play because then you're in your "comfort zone". I know I was planning to put that in the rules...because I remember also thinking that we needed to definitely specify it so that a person wouldn't bowl for the virtual tour, bowl badly, then say, "oh well...no bigee...I'll just use my league night scores because they were pretty good last week."

Allowing someone to use league scores, gives them 4 chances per month to essentially bowl "best of 4 series" That is a HUGE advantage! Granted, a person could cheat and do that by bowling at a center multiple times and then reporting their best series....but everyone is on the honor system in that regard. So no, sorry...no league scores. Hopefully bowling at your center, less pressure than leagues, and with a full game warm-up will actually give you better scores...but if it doesn't...thats bowling.

Also, while I'm thinking of it...when you submit scores, please try to submit the 4-games. The first one is the practice, followed by 3 games that count. AND...if you're the rare folks that bowl against each other, please submit the scores showing that you actually each bowled each other. The desk should be able to print out a sheet showing all 4 games...both bowlers. I don't know why all the scoresheets I've gotten have been 3-games...1 person. Might be the software the alley is using...not sure. Thats why the BEST option would be to take a camera phone picture of the monitors (if it shows up well....I've had some experiences where it was near impossible to read) after each of the 4 games...but whatever...just try to remember to report all 4 games; 1st one being practice and try to submit (for paired bowlers) scoresheets where you are both listed.

Aslan

04-23-2014, 02:58 PM

i am for random centers maybe not 75 miles away but like 20-30 lol buts its already done with if people want to quit let them go this was bond to have issues we couldnt fore see and we need to address them as they come up

Exactly. I don't have an issue with making slight adjustments for things we didn't see coming. For example:

- The issue of centers with very limited hours. I did not initially see that as an issue. I didn't realize that some of these centers have such weird hours (open only after 5PM on weekdays).
- The issue of medical concerns such as (I think it was Stormed1) where he had eyesight problems and other health issues that limited his ability to bowl at night.

Those are perfectly reasonable issues to make accomodations for...and completely unforeseen. But as we've made accomodations...we seem to be getting more objections based on what I would call "marginal" or "convenience" issues. I thought that might happen...even before we started we had 3-4 participants stating they wouldn't play at X center primarily because they just didn't like it (for multiple reasons).

So I did foresee it as being an "issue"...but like MudPuppy...I was hopeful/optimistic that if we could just get 1-2 months under our belts...people would start to see it as more "fun/interesting"...and not as much feeling "inconvenienced".

But, I think the SIX CENTER lists...still randomly chosen...will be a very, very fair compromise. If people specify 6 centers and STILL have issues bowling where assigned...then, well...I don't think they are ever going to be happy until they get to just bowl in their own house...and thats kinda pointless. That would lead to just turining in league sheets and whomever bowls best in summer leagues this season...winner winner chicken dinner. So...I'll start another (yet another) thread where all participants will be asked to go in there and pick their 6 centers (not including where they bowled in April) and I will ONLY use those six chosen centers going forward. I think thats very, very fair.

zdawg

04-23-2014, 03:55 PM

Allowing someone to use league scores, gives them 4 chances per month to essentially bowl "best of 4 series" That is a HUGE advantage! Granted, a person could cheat and do that by bowling at a center multiple times and then reporting their best series....but everyone is on the honor system in that regard. So no, sorry...no league scores. Hopefully bowling at your center, less pressure than leagues, and with a full game warm-up will actually give you better scores...but if it doesn't...thats bowling.

Cool no worries, I'll get it done this weekend if not tomorrow.

Aslan

04-23-2014, 04:27 PM

Cool no worries, I'll get it done this weekend if not tomorrow.

Great.

One of the other reasons I liked the random center idea is if you got a center 35 miles away that you would usually never bowl at....even if you bowl terribly...you probably aint makin another 35 mile trip later in the month to cheat and "re-try". But yeah...using league scores would make it too complex because you'd have to specify a certain time in advance that you were using "X week's league scores". Not as much of an issue in April, because it was a shortened month...but going forward.

classygranny

04-23-2014, 05:33 PM

Aslan

04-23-2014, 05:53 PM

I understand about the league issue, but what about taking a friend to bowl along with you? Sometimes if I had to travel far - or to a part of town I don't normally get to very often, it would be nice to call up a friend and say...meet me, let's bowl.

Absolutely no rule against that. As long as both players aren't named "classygranny"...seems like a perfectly good idea. If I had a friend....I'd take them with me bowling. :confused:

Mike White

04-24-2014, 01:22 PM

Great.

One of the other reasons I liked the random center idea is if you got a center 35 miles away that you would usually never bowl at....even if you bowl terribly...you probably aint makin another 35 mile trip later in the month to cheat and "re-try". But yeah...using league scores would make it too complex because you'd have to specify a certain time in advance that you were using "X week's league scores". Not as much of an issue in April, because it was a shortened month...but going forward.

How about if I go to the assigned house, there are leagues going on, and someone needs a sub.

Can those scores count?

classygranny

04-24-2014, 06:05 PM

Someone, quick - please remind me WHY I drove an hour and a half, bowled in a house that apparently doesn't believe in air conditioning or fans when it's 90 degrees outside, and bowled like...well insert your own word here. BTW - vdubtx, don't I get extra handicap 'cuz I'm a girl? or better yet, "an old lady" and believe me, after that bowling, I really am feeling my age. Earlier I thought Aslan was crazy when he said there was an advantage to bowling with competitors. I needed something - even if it just slowed my pace down. I really am going to have to concentrate on the "pace".

Well, the good thing is (or bad thing) - I just realized these are the lanes we are going to bowl a tournament in late June. Hope the AC is on...lol.

First session of my Virtual Tour complete - analysis: It was very interesting, and humbling.

Mudpuppy

04-25-2014, 01:24 AM

How about if I go to the assigned house, there are leagues going on, and someone needs a sub.

Can those scores count?

I vote no - that is league related again

6 house rule for May and possibly remainder of the season I vote yes - great compromise

Been busy with work and home and a million other things so haven't had time to get on here the last few days. Planning on bowling this weekend. I might skate out of work early tomorrow and throw my games. Dinner at the bowing alley - wouldn't be a first or a last. Wife and kids are out of time so I have some free time. Otherwise I will fit it in between hockey, motorcycle open house, baseball practice and getting the bike going this weekend. Plan c is to do it on Monday afternoon.

Mike White

04-25-2014, 04:37 AM

I vote no - that is league related again

How exactly is this "league related".

There is no difference between me trying to sub multiple times, and submitting my best, and me open bowling multiple times and submitting my best.
In either situation, the tour is relying on our honor.

The "complex" league problem is simply solved by announcing before the beginning of the month, the date of the first league session.
The printout would have that date on it otherwise no entry for that month.

If there was some issue, a message posted to the board before the start of that session, indicating that the person wasn't going to bowl at that time, and the time of the next league session would be listed.

The side benefit of using league scores, is the other people in the league police the rules, such as fixing scores when balls bounce out of gutters.

noeymc

04-25-2014, 09:54 AM

i agree with mike if we do it and they dont post there scores from that night they must do open but going to open bowling can be harder cuz you never no what you will run into on the lanes

Aslan

04-25-2014, 02:03 PM

but going to open bowling can be harder cuz you never no what you will run into on the lanes

ding ding ding. Give the kid a cookie.

THATs the point. It's HARDER.

I don't disagree with Mike about the sub situation...I just think it's very unlikely for nearly all participants that they would draw a center and become a sub for a month. Mike, maybe vdub....maybe some of our other higher average bowlers may have good relationships with multiple sites...so they may be able to do something like that. But I'm not calling the league office at Chapparal 300 and telling them I'm interested in being a league sub....but only for the month of April. That doesn't make any sense.

But yes, technically subbing and open bowling would be the same thing in theory. The main DIFFERENCE....is like noeymc eluded to...bowling in leagues guarantees you league conditions. You have a freshly oiled lane. Open bowling, rarely do you know when the last time it was oiled...so you take what you get. For higher average bowlers, this penalizes them because they can't just "get into their groove". On the other hand, as we saw in the Invitational, higher average bowlers do have the advantage of being able to "adjust" quicker...thus get dialed in faster.

I've found that the higher average bowlers are the ones LEAST likely to accept change. Much of their average/strategy/experience is tied to a knowledge of a certain house and a certain condition. They tend to have much more to lose when that changes than does a beginner that will throw badly on any condition.

But...to keep the playing field level...it should be an open bowling situation and we should try and stay clear of "leagues". "Could" we do a system where you declare that you will use your league scores the 3rd week of the month...prior to that that 3rd week? I suppose. But what happens if the day after that 3rd week, the bowler claims they had to miss that night because they got ill? Now I have to verify that a bowler DIDN'T bowl...AND verify the scores in week 4 when they DO bowl. It's just adding more confusion/work for the sake of the "convenience factor".

GLORY is not convenient people!! Do you think it was "convenient" to drive to the middle nowhere, in a driving rainstorm, with my bowels full and needing a restroom badly...forcing me to buy a cookie at Del Taco so they'd allow me to use their restroom??? Just so I could DOMINATE the 1st Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Southern California Aslan vs. Zdawg Invitational Tournament???? No...it wasn't "convenient". But GLORY isn't convenient. :cool: You want "convenient"....stay home and knit a toaster cozy. Sit there in your favorite recliner...wearing one of those stupid Snuggies...watching old Matlock episodes. No glory for you!!! Iceman...back me up!

Mudpuppy

04-25-2014, 02:07 PM

Mike White

04-25-2014, 03:38 PM

ding ding ding. Give the kid a cookie.

THATs the point. It's HARDER.

If you level the playing field enough, it's pure chance who is going to win.

Apparently you want to eliminate any of the skill differences between players.

Makes sense, because you lack the skills.

The biggest problem with open bowling is it's difficult to get the ball to react properly on the back end.

Back end reaction is allows a more skillful bowler to score much higher than a "chucker"

When you take back end reaction away (like at temecula) most of the skill differences are gone.
Then it's just a matter of consistency.

The handicap is based on being able to use the full range of skills.

Bowling on crap conditions benefits someone like you, so your insisting on open bowling demonstrates an unfair bias on your part.

At Chaparral300, after practice, I targeted 10 board. In 3 games, I never hit the 11 board or left, and only hit the 9 board or right once.

But because the lanes had a ton of carry down, 9 board would miss the headpin right, and the left half of the 10 board would go through the nose.

I left a ton of (light pocket) 7 pins, and (almost on the nose) 6 pins.

Mike White

04-25-2014, 03:45 PM

And I know for me personally I bowl a lot better in a league than open bowling. There is more incentive and there is something to shoot against. It wouldn't be fair at all for me to bowl in a league for this tournament.

But, in short, that is the rules and regardless that I agree with the reason that is how this is set up. Note it down for a suggestion for season 2.

It would be fair, if everyone had the opportunity to bowl in league for this tournament.

As for the rules, these issues were brought up starting with the conclusion of the Temecula event.

The issues were ignored, in my opinion, because ignoring them benefited Aslan.

Mudpuppy

04-25-2014, 04:28 PM

It would be fair, if everyone had the opportunity to bowl in league for this tournament.

As for the rules, these issues were brought up starting with the conclusion of the Temecula event.

The issues were ignored, in my opinion, because ignoring them benefited Aslan.

I agree if everyone could bowl in their league it would be fair. I don't bowl a summer league and both my leagues are over - so would I join a league just to do this tournament? Nope. And ultimately it wasn't the intent of the contest. This season 1 was taylored to get people out and bowl different lanes. Yes they are drawbacks to open bowling - I personally hate open bowling for those reasons but I love the idea of this tournament so I am willing to ignore the pitfalls and just try it out. The optimist sees the glass half full, pessimist half empty and the realist drinks the beer. Call me a realist. And order me another beer - full this time. Your opinions are duly noted now for future consideration (season 2 and beyond) - it sucks that they were ignored or you felt they were. I'm sure that wasn't the intention. But now you have voiced them publicly and whoever takes over for season 2 can take it into consideration. And season 2 should be during normal league season anyways. So maybe that is a good option and makes it better bowling for everyone and it makes it more convenient, etc. etc. etc.

Aslan

04-25-2014, 05:28 PM

% of Issues with Tournament:
Aslan: 2%
Bunny: 1%
Classygranny: 3%
Jeralok: 1%
tccstudent: 1%
Stormed1!: 1%
vdubtx: 7%
MWhite: 79%
Mudpuppy: 2%
ZDawg: 0%
JDilly: 0%
JAnderson 3%

It doesn't matter at this point. I've given up even looking for reasoning in the objections at this point. It's been a constant flow of objections to every single point, rule, format, schedule, etc... It's "Boy Who Cries Wolf" phenomenon. At this point, MWhite could object to bowling at a place because it's literally on fire and Aliens have taken the entire alley hostage....and my reaction would be..."yeah....whatever. Blahdy blah blah."

The original concept was a tournament. Where we all show up at a neutral center and bowl. We did that, on a neutral center, after a fresh layer of oil had been applied....you were tested...you were found wanting. You can claim you were sick that day, or there was a mini-earthquake, or the lights were too bright, or they invented an oil pattern just to mess with you....or that little green martian from the Flintsones popped in and magically caused your bowl to go in the gutter. It doesn't matter. At some point....it's about who bowled better.

I would LOVE if this could be a live event....in the National Bowling Stadium. All 12 of us, bowling a tournament in Reno. Same house, same conditions, same day. NO excuses. No "honor system". But....thats not what we have to work with...so we do the best we can with what we have. THIS is the best alternative.

As to your trash talking and other disparaging comments regarding your's truly, the CHAMPION of the 1st Annnual Billy Hardwick Memorial Southern California Aslan vs. ZDawg Invitational....well, it just puts THAT much more pressure on you to defeat me. Eventuallly....with only 6 centers on each of our lists...and a physical pairing looming...EVENTUALLY....you will have to face me again. And if it's at Arlington....your HOME center....no crazy "reverse block" excuses. No pressure on me. I'm SUPPOSED to lose. I've only been bowling 8 months....you've been bowling since I was in elementary school. You're SUPPOSED to win. :cool: No pressure. :cool:

classygranny

04-25-2014, 06:04 PM

humpf...nevermind, I should just keep my mouth shut.

But how in the heck did I get 3%? Because I have a family, business, and a life?

noeymc

04-25-2014, 06:30 PM

alsan who did you say i was close to ? maybe me and him can figure somthing out and meet up to bowl

Aslan

04-25-2014, 07:53 PM

humpf...nevermind, I should just keep my mouth shut.

But how in the heck did I get 3%? Because I have a family, business, and a life?

Yes. : )

The point wasn't to actually assign values....it was that ONE PERSON appears to have ISSUES with EVERYTHING!! So another way to say it is, without using %s, "most everyone seems generally okay with the rules and format....except ONE person who seems to have issues with every facet of the competition."

And I had 2%....and I made the most of the rules...so don't whine about 3%. : )

Aslan

04-25-2014, 07:58 PM

alsan who did you say i was close to ? maybe me and him can figure somthing out and meet up to bowl

You're not close to anyone really. Mudpuppy and you are about exactly 180 miles apart. So "theoretically", if he and you were to travel to southern Toledo....there is a handful of centers that overlap your lists. I don't think he was interested in that....and I was almost certain you wouldn't be. But if you guys want to, one of you can put it on your list and I'll even bend the rules a bit and make sure it gets picked for a certain month that is convenient to you both. But thats a LONG ways to bowl a series! I would be impressed...thats really showing some Tour Spirit and a willingness to connect with other BBers....but thats a LONG way.

And I've made the trip from Detroit to near Cleveland many times....it is NOT necessarily a scenic route...not much really at all other than an occasional toll booth.

noeymc

04-25-2014, 08:59 PM

yea not much see unless you like depression in ohio lol and i dont think it will be apart of it lol hey i need to know if i can bowl next month on the 2nd sadly ive been working 12-16 hours past two weeks including weekends i was late to bowling league last week prob will be again tomorrow

vdubtx

04-25-2014, 11:05 PM

At Chaparral300, after practice, I targeted 10 board. In 3 games, I never hit the 11 board or left, and only hit the 9 board or right once.

But because the lanes had a ton of carry down, 9 board would miss the headpin right, and the left half of the 10 board would go through the nose.

I left a ton of (light pocket) 7 pins, and (almost on the nose) 6 pins.

Sounds like you were using the wrong ball. Remember, you can't out bowl bad ball reaction.

What you experienced likely wasn't carry down, more like oil depletion on the lanes.

Mike White

04-26-2014, 01:33 AM

% of Issues with Tournament:
Aslan: 2%
Bunny: 1%
Classygranny: 3%
Jeralok: 1%
tccstudent: 1%
Stormed1!: 1%
vdubtx: 7%
MWhite: 79%
Mudpuppy: 2%
ZDawg: 0%
JDilly: 0%
JAnderson 3%

It doesn't matter at this point. I've given up even looking for reasoning in the objections at this point. It's been a constant flow of objections to every single point, rule, format, schedule, etc... It's "Boy Who Cries Wolf" phenomenon. At this point, MWhite could object to bowling at a place because it's literally on fire and Aliens have taken the entire alley hostage....and my reaction would be..."yeah....whatever. Blahdy blah blah."

The original concept was a tournament. Where we all show up at a neutral center and bowl. We did that, on a neutral center, after a fresh layer of oil had been applied....you were tested...you were found wanting. You can claim you were sick that day, or there was a mini-earthquake, or the lights were too bright, or they invented an oil pattern just to mess with you....or that little green martian from the Flintsones popped in and magically caused your bowl to go in the gutter. It doesn't matter. At some point....it's about who bowled better.

Who bowled better is the one who knocked down the most pins. That wasn't you.

I would LOVE if this could be a live event....in the National Bowling Stadium. All 12 of us, bowling a tournament in Reno. Same house, same conditions, same day. NO excuses. No "honor system". But....thats not what we have to work with...so we do the best we can with what we have. THIS is the best alternative.

As to your trash talking and other disparaging comments regarding your's truly, the CHAMPION of the 1st Annnual Billy Hardwick Memorial Southern California Aslan vs. ZDawg Invitational....well, it just puts THAT much more pressure on you to defeat me. Eventuallly....with only 6 centers on each of our lists...and a physical pairing looming...EVENTUALLY....you will have to face me again. And if it's at Arlington....your HOME center....no crazy "reverse block" excuses. No pressure on me. I'm SUPPOSED to lose. I've only been bowling 8 months....you've been bowling since I was in elementary school. You're SUPPOSED to win. :cool: No pressure. :cool:

Maybe it's that most people either don't notice, or care when you screw up.

And yes, 79% of the time you've screwed up.

Lets take your average for example, you said you had two league averages, one in the 130's, and one either 165 or 166.

First you said your composite was 151, then you said it would be 156, then somehow you listed your average as 146 stating that you had the wrong number of games.

What are the averages for each league and how many games in each of those leagues.

Let us confirm you calculated it correctly.

In my case, bowl.com lists the leagues, averages, # of games, and even calculated the composite average for you, and still you got it wrong.

Mike White

04-26-2014, 01:51 AM

Sounds like you were using the wrong ball. Remember, you can't out bowl bad ball reaction.

What you experienced likely wasn't carry down, more like oil depletion on the lanes.

They had moonlight bowling the night before.

If you stood at the foul line, you could see in the 1st 5 feet all the ball impact marks in the oil.

The marks were spread across the whole width of the lane.

A clear sign of open bowlers with house balls.

Thats not oil depletion caused by resin balls.

The ball not hooking in the back end, combined with the idea of oil depletion, would imply the ball was rolling out.

It wasn't rolling out. It was finding little to no traction in the back end.

Mike White

04-26-2014, 02:05 AM

I agree if everyone could bowl in their league it would be fair. I don't bowl a summer league and both my leagues are over - so would I join a league just to do this tournament? Nope. And ultimately it wasn't the intent of the contest. This season 1 was taylored to get people out and bowl different lanes. Yes they are drawbacks to open bowling - I personally hate open bowling for those reasons but I love the idea of this tournament so I am willing to ignore the pitfalls and just try it out. The optimist sees the glass half full, pessimist half empty and the realist drinks the beer. Call me a realist. And order me another beer - full this time. Your opinions are duly noted now for future consideration (season 2 and beyond) - it sucks that they were ignored or you felt they were. I'm sure that wasn't the intention. But now you have voiced them publicly and whoever takes over for season 2 can take it into consideration. And season 2 should be during normal league season anyways. So maybe that is a good option and makes it better bowling for everyone and it makes it more convenient, etc. etc. etc.

Might as well be bowling out in a rock pile. Skill won't decide the winner. Unless the skill is to know when open bowling conditions won't suck.