Is it the BALL, or the SKILL of the Bowler

[rv driver]

I've never seen a bowling bowl advertised as having an effect on a bowlers accuracy, consistency, mechanics, release, or knowledge.

I would say, the better the bowler, the less % of effect the ball has.

It doesn't; that's not what I meant. The bowler's accuracy and consistency, mechanics, release & knowledge all have to be in place in order for the ball to do what it's intended to do.

If I understand you correctly, the ball will make a good bowler better, because the ball will maximize an already good shot. BUT ... the ball will only frustrate the inconsistent bowler.

[Amyers]

Please keep in mind that we are talking about a house shot. When were are bowling well on a house shot and have the right ball in our hand and are playing the right part of the lane, we have room to miss - that's what makes it a house shot. When the shot changes, a viable option is often to change balls. That's where that 90% number comes from. Consider that four things are going on: 1) you are throwing the ball well, 2) you already know the path to the pocket, 3) you know that your line is finished based on your last shot, and 4) you know your bowling balls well enough to know what ball will allow you to play that line for another frame or two. Given that scenario, why is a strike percentage that is higher than your overall percentage so hard to believe? It is a very specific situation that does not happen all of the time, but when it does, you should be able to make the change and strike on your first shot. The actual percentage depends on your own level and ability.

I understand you have some things you know in this situation which does help and if you know your equipment well and understand the lanes conditions correctly you have an excellent chance of throwing a high quality shot but here is what I am getting at I believe you are looking at this as being "hot" I've thrown the last 4 strikes in a row but that last one looks like the shot is about to change I'm going to my next step you should be highly confident you are going to throw number five with the new ball. I am looking at this as more of a learning too and I can't say that I really believe in being "hot" either but over the long term "hot" "cold" "indifferent" ant time you change balls I do not believe you are going to average and that's the key word higher on this first ball than you do for the rest of your games. If we accept on average that a 220 bowler is pretty good and they will have a strike percentage of 60% or so why do you expect that it will go up 30% because they changed balls? the 4 reasons that I agreed helped you in your previous post you should have those very early in your first game hopefully your locked into those during warm ups before you throw the first frame (doesn't always happen for me but I don't average 220 either). I don't know I just haven't really heard anyone give a good reason to expect that as I say over the long term why that average would be any higher than your normal strike average.

I can think of reasons it would be lower 1. you transitioned to early. 2. the ball you transitioned to uses a slightly different shape and maybe using an untested part of the lane. 3. Transitioning due to the fact you don't like how your ball is hitting the pins i.e. blaming a you problem on the lanes (see that a lot). I am sure there are other factors here to the negative that I'm just not thinking about.

I just haven't seen anyone give a reason here why you would be 30% more likely to strike here than you would in the 3rd frame or the 8th frame. In a small sample size yes you could be at 90%, I'm sure I could go through all of my games and pick out 10 game stretches where I stuck on my first ball in the tenth frame 9 out of 10 times. Does that mean I should set a goal of having a strike percentage of 90% for the tenth frame? No if I expand my sample size its going to be very close to my average strike percentage there is no real reason I should strike at a higher percentage in the 10th than there is a reason why you would strike at a higher percentage after a ball change

[rv driver]

I understand you have some things you know in this situation which does help and if you know your equipment well and understand the lanes conditions correctly you have an excellent chance of throwing a high quality shot but here is what I am getting at I believe you are looking at this as being "hot" I've thrown the last 4 strikes in a row but that last one looks like the shot is about to change I'm going to my next step you should be highly confident you are going to throw number five with the new ball. I am looking at this as more of a learning too and I can't say that I really believe in being "hot" either but over the long term "hot" "cold" "indifferent" ant time you change balls I do not believe you are going to average and that's the key word higher on this first ball than you do for the rest of your games. If we accept on average that a 220 bowler is pretty good and they will have a strike percentage of 60% or so why do you expect that it will go up 30% because they changed balls? the 4 reasons that I agreed helped you in your previous post you should have those very early in your first game hopefully your locked into those during warm ups before you throw the first frame (doesn't always happen for me but I don't average 220 either). I don't know I just haven't really heard anyone give a good reason to expect that as I say over the long term why that average would be any higher than your normal strike average.

I can think of reasons it would be lower 1. you transitioned to early. 2. the ball you transitioned to uses a slightly different shape and maybe using an untested part of the lane. 3. Transitioning due to the fact you don't like how your ball is hitting the pins i.e. blaming a you problem on the lanes (see that a lot). I am sure there are other factors here to the negative that I'm just not thinking about.

I just haven't seen anyone give a reason here why you would be 30% more likely to strike here than you would in the 3rd frame or the 8th frame. In a small sample size yes you could be at 90%, I'm sure I could go through all of my games and pick out 10 game stretches where I stuck on my first ball in the tenth frame 9 out of 10 times. Does that mean I should set a goal of having a strike percentage of 90% for the tenth frame? No if I expand my sample size its going to be very close to my average strike percentage there is no real reason I should strike at a higher percentage in the 10th than there is a reason why you would strike at a higher percentage after a ball change

Here's what Rob said:

A 160 average bowler will probably not see a difference in bowling balls. A 190+ average bowler will not only see a difference, they will see that the difference will have a huge impact on their averages. Most 220+ bowlers already know the differences.

Sums it up right there. A lower average bowler isn't going to see a difference. To a higher average player, however, the differences become quite apparent, and it behooves the higher average bowler to learn those differences.

It's math. We're only talking a percentage of a very small slice of the total game/total bowler's history. When you do that, percentages change. There are constants (what the ball is designed to do) and there are variables (lane conditions, bowling streak, consistency of the bowler, and bowler's knowledge of the ball and the changing lane conditions). Given the constants and variables of the specific shot, the bowler with the right variables should be able to equate to the constant of "what the ball is designed to do," and thus make the ball do what it's designed to do. If the right variables are in place, guess what?? the ball will do what it's designed to do, i.e., strike. If the variables are in place, allowing for minute differences in human error, the ball has an extremely high chance of doing its job. It doesn't matter what the bowler's average is. It doesn't matter how well the bowler is doing that night. It only matters that the bowler is plugging in the right variables that one, single time.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. It isn't that the ball magically makes you bowl better. It's that, given the right variables, a ball will do what it's designed to do. Probably 90% of the time. The percentage, you see, is all about the ball doing its job -- not about whether the bowler is consistent.

[MICHAEL]

What do I know, I have only been bowling for a little over 3 years, but I am going to come right out and SAY IT! Just like in the John F Kennedy movie, There is no Magic Bullet, say with Bowling BALLS!

Do balls make a difference on given lanes, YES! Are they Magic, NO!

Knowledge, Skill, and the Gift are what make a 220 and above bowler!

Its like what makes a great painter,,, can you be coached, and trained to be a GREAT PAINTER,,, NO! Can coaching, lessons help,,, sure to a degree, but greatness is a GIFT! I stand by that and challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

Did I bowl two 300 within 6 months of one another not long ago, alonge with a dozen or so 700, best being that 780, YES!

Is Iceman a great bowler,,, ABSOLUTLY NO!! I just have my senior moments now and then!

I wish I could explain how the above happened.

IF IT WAS THE BALL, why hasen't it happen more often,,,,,The Iq pearl, and the virtual gravity nanno pearl?????

I can't say it was luck on the last 300,,,, They were all solid Pocket hits,,, ask James the our alley pro who was watching,,,, My second game was ( WHAT LOOKED LIKE GOOD POCKET HITS, but a carry problem, thus the 216.

Then the final game 8 stirkes in a role, ICEMAN THOUGHT ANOTHER 300, and 800 plus series, but fell short with a 264!

I am NOT A GREAT BOWLER, I don't have that coveted 220 average! I have a lot of respect for those who do, regardless of how many 300's or 800 they may or man not have.

I think Its not JUST A GIVEN BALL, but its a Given ball on a certain day, that many other things have to fall into PLACE FOR A BOWLER LIKE MYSELF!
to accomplish the above.

I am not bragging Mike White and Granny, its hard for me to understand how it happened so easily on the days it happen!

Maybe that's why I love Bowling!

Do I HAVE THE GIFT,,, AGAIN... NO! LoL,,,, do I wish, I did,,, you damn RIGHT! But maybe it would not be as much FUN IF I DID! I know of a number of bowlers around here that throw 300s like chickens lay eggs, and 700s quit often! It doesn't even get a rise when announced!

You guys and gals out there with the 220 and above averages, DO HAVE THE GIFT!! CONGRATULATIONS!!! To me its like a Par golfer, with no handicap!

When I rolled my first one it was a moment I will never forget,

you would have thought I won the lottery... LOL...

People and friends buying me drinks ect... MY WIFE brought me a jigger, and remember, ( ICEMAN does not DRIK), of butterscotch snoops,,,,which was VERY THOUGHTFUL since I was throwing a Storm IQ Pearl, (the one with the butterscotch smell)!

YES EVERYONE, My name is Michael, and I am a bowl-A-Hall-ick!!! LOL

[Amyers]

Here's what Rob said:

Sums it up right there. A lower average bowler isn't going to see a difference. To a higher average player, however, the differences become quite apparent, and it behooves the higher average bowler to learn those differences.

It's math. We're only talking a percentage of a very small slice of the total game/total bowler's history. When you do that, percentages change. There are constants (what the ball is designed to do) and there are variables (lane conditions, bowling streak, consistency of the bowler, and bowler's knowledge of the ball and the changing lane conditions). Given the constants and variables of the specific shot, the bowler with the right variables should be able to equate to the constant of "what the ball is designed to do," and thus make the ball do what it's designed to do. If the right variables are in place, guess what?? the ball will do what it's designed to do, i.e., strike. If the variables are in place, allowing for minute differences in human error, the ball has an extremely high chance of doing its job. It doesn't matter what the bowler's average is. It doesn't matter how well the bowler is doing that night. It only matters that the bowler is plugging in the right variables that one, single time.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. It isn't that the ball magically makes you bowl better. It's that, given the right variables, a ball will do what it's designed to do. Probably 90% of the time. The percentage, you see, is all about the ball doing its job -- not about whether the bowler is consistent.

RV your confusing two different things here together:

#1. Rob and I have been discussing strike percentages after a ball change for higher level players
#2. The second part of this is Aslan and Rob discussing the effect of different balls on lower level players

Two completely different arguments

I will give you my take on part 2 of this since I haven't commented on it:

Depending on how they throw balls can make very little difference or a bunch of difference for low and mid tier bowlers. It all depends on bowling style.

It doesn't really matter if Aslan throws a low end low hooking resin ball or a top of the line hook monster its not moving much due to his low rev style he has commented on it here before and he knows the flaws of it and I don't say that to take away from him but it is what it is and he knows that.

I'm a low to medium speed medium rev guy it makes a difference what I throw if I take a hook monster out of the bag on low oil conditions I'm going to struggle to keep it in the pocket.

Just for an example about two weeks ago I challenged one of the older guys on our leagues to a match. Best out of 5 with two caveats he could only bring one ball his Brunswick Mastermind and we had to have the match before lunch on a Monday. This guy is better than me 205 average I am about 150 (should be higher but I've been working on some stuff) but even then at my best I'm only 170-180 currently in my opinion. Stakes $50: This match was over before it ever started and I knew as he learned on Monday he had 0 chance.

His style is a lower speed high loft delivery they don't oil the lanes on the weekend at my house during the summer. They are dry as a bone on Monday mornings he couldn't even keep his mastermind in the Brooklyn pocket lofting the gutter. We didn't bother throwing game 5 and I beat him by over 200 pins in the 4 games. It was all ball he is a much more skilled bowler than I but I knew the conditions at my house during those hours and I knew how his ball/style would be effected by it. That Mastermind is his favorite ball for leagues so it wasn't that.

Same deal my only ball at the moment is a low-medium oil ball you put me in a swamp a lower ability bowler could beat me with the right equipment.

[rv driver]

RV your confusing two different things here together:

#1. Rob and I have been discussing strike percentages after a ball change for higher level players
#2. The second part of this is Aslan and Rob discussing the effect of different balls on lower level players

Two completely different arguments

I will give you my take on part 2 of this since I haven't commented on it:

Depending on how they throw balls can make very little difference or a bunch of difference for low and mid tier bowlers. It all depends on bowling style.

It doesn't really matter if Aslan throws a low end low hooking resin ball or a top of the line hook monster its not moving much due to his low rev style he has commented on it here before and he knows the flaws of it and I don't say that to take away from him but it is what it is and he knows that.

I'm a low to medium speed medium rev guy it makes a difference what I throw if I take a hook monster out of the bag on low oil conditions I'm going to struggle to keep it in the pocket.

Just for an example about two weeks ago I challenged one of the older guys on our leagues to a match. Best out of 5 with two caveats he could only bring one ball his Brunswick Mastermind and we had to have the match before lunch on a Monday. This guy is better than me 205 average I am about 150 (should be higher but I've been working on some stuff) but even then at my best I'm only 170-180 currently in my opinion. Stakes $50: This match was over before it ever started and I knew as he learned on Monday he had 0 chance.

His style is a lower speed high loft delivery they don't oil the lanes on the weekend at my house during the summer. They are dry as a bone on Monday mornings he couldn't even keep his mastermind in the Brooklyn pocket lofting the gutter. We didn't bother throwing game 5 and I beat him by over 200 pins in the 4 games. It was all ball he is a much more skilled bowler than I but I knew the conditions at my house during those hours and I knew how his ball/style would be effected by it. That Mastermind is his favorite ball for leagues so it wasn't that.

Same deal my only ball at the moment is a low-medium oil ball you put me in a swamp a lower ability bowler could beat me with the right equipment.

Exactly. The variables weren't in place for that ball. All things being equal, a lower-skill player won't see as much difference in balls as a highly-skilled player.

Thanks for the example! It illustrates what knowledge can do.

[MICHAEL]

True. But my point was…if a beginner bowler or even average bowler is missing their targets or has bad timing or any of the other 6- things that could keep them from performing well…a change to another ball will not only NOT be likely to help their situation…you also may see no effect.

Having the knowledge you have now, even giving lots of advise, ( now don't get me WRONG Aslan), but why is your average where its at??? Do you think your at the place you might be, (average wise), even next year, or 21 years from now?? Your very analytical, and have the knowledge, you have no physical handicaps, what up?? COULD IT BE THE GIFT? Do you even conceive this next fall ending with a 200 average or above? YOU HAVE acquired much more knowledge then me, your much younger then me. To answer my own question......

I don't think so,,, their is something in both of us that doesn't allow the mind, body to functions in a manner that gives us that average. Sure I do have my MOMENTS, games and series once in a while, but I feel I will probably never achieve that 220 average!

since your not a beginner bowler, and you mention bowling even as a kid with relatives.... could my opinion about GOOD BOWLERS with 220 averages are GIFTED, and in reality most never make that level due to their DNA.

NO BALL will get us there, and skill, and coaching can only get you so far!

. Prove me wrong, but after observing many bowlers, and talking to most of them about knowledge, and even coaching, many never reach that pentacle, that have been bowling for many years! Yet some pick it of rather quickly, the gifted ones, where bowling comes naturally, along with the high averages.

Do you think we both are doomed to 200 and below? I heard they do have a DNA test out now that dictates your probability of being a poor, average, good, and excellent bowler!

It cost about 1500.00 buck... I am trying to talk them down in price, even trade a couple balls for the test.

Aslan I know you love to bowl, but is your DNA more set up to be a lover, not a bowler????

Reality Check ,,,, over! LOL

P.S. Iceman The Same,,, I think I am doomed to 190 to 200, cliff note! LOL

But guess what,,, I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT BOWLING,,,,, and on occasions, something GREAT HAPPENS, for Both of us!

Your Great victories against Mike, the man that knows bowling maybe EVEN better then ROB!!!!!!,,,,,,,,, And my ability to pull a 300, or high 700 out of my ask!!! LOL LOL

I can think of worse fates my friend!!! We are much alike Aslan, other then I am much better looking, with more miles on my engine then you! Hang In There My Friend!@!

[Amyers]

Having the knowledge you have now, even giving lots of advise, ( now don't get me WRONG Aslan), but why is your average where its at??? Do you think your at the place you might be, (average wise), even next year, or 21 years from now?? Your very analytical, and have the knowledge, you have no physical handicaps, what up?? COULD IT BE THE GIFT? Do you even conceive this next fall ending with a 200 average or above? YOU HAVE acquired much more knowledge then me, your much younger then me. To answer my own question......

I don't think so,,, their is something in both of us that doesn't allow the mind, body to functions in a manner that gives us that average. Sure I do have my MOMENTS, games and series once in a while, but I feel I will probably never achieve that 220 average!

since your not a beginner bowler, and you mention bowling even as a kid with relatives.... could my opinion about GOOD BOWLERS with 220 averages are GIFTED, and in reality most never make that level due to their DNA.

NO BALL will get us there, and skill, and coaching can only get you so far!

. Prove me wrong, but after observing many bowlers, and talking to most of them about knowledge, and even coaching, many never reach that pentacle, that have been bowling for many years! Yet some pick it of rather quickly, the gifted ones, where bowling comes naturally, along with the high averages.

Do you think we both are doomed to 200 and below? I heard they do have a DNA test out now that dictates your probability of being a poor, average, good, and excellent bowler!

It cost about 1500.00 buck... I am trying to talk them down in price, even trade a couple balls for the test.

Aslan I know you love to bowl, but is your DNA more set up to be a lover, not a bowler????

Reality Check ,,,, over! LOL

P.S. Iceman The Same,,, I think I am doomed to 190 to 200, cliff note! LOL

But guess what,,, I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT BOWLING,,,,, and on occasions, something GREAT HAPPENS, for Both of us!

Your Great victories against Mike, the man that knows bowling maybe EVEN better then ROB!!!!!!,,,,,,,,, And my ability to pull a 300, or high 700 out of my ask!!! LOL LOL

I can think of worse fates my friend!!! We are much alike Aslan, other then I am much better looking, with more miles on my engine then you! Hang In There My Friend!@!

Iceman You and Aslan haven't been doing this seriously that long. You are both still young in the sport. The difference between 200 and 220 is not that great it's one less split that leaves and open or and extra strike and spare a game its not daylight and dark. I have been bowling for a long time I started bowling youth leagues when I was 9 bowled until I was 18 average went from 67 to 197 (back in the old days when scores were lower) quit for 20 years now trying to come back to it. I didn't go to that 197 average at year three.

I believe there is something to your gift philosophy some people pick this game up faster than others. I have seen guys pick a house ball up off the rack and throw in the 150's never a lesson or practice in their life. I have seen a lot of them crash and burn when they developed a glitch along the way too. I am sure at that pro level they just have something that most of us don't have. Their is also a desire level and a time commitment that a lot of us just can't make. I was talking to the bowling center manager the other day who is about my age about when he started he has a 208 average which is towards the top at my house he started bowling about 6 years ago started in a league really liked it actually quit his job as a GM for Taco Bell to run the bowling center so he would have more practice time. He bowled 15 to 20 games a day working with a former PBA player who used to own our alley for almost 2 years before he broke 200 in his league average. This guy has won some decent size tournaments now and is pretty successful bowler.

For most of us this just isn't an option I can't bowl everyday and I don't have that access to a former PBA player anymore (I have worked with him in the past when I was a kid). I hope I can get to that 200 average but I don't think its going to be this fall or probably even next fall.

The other things is the ability and will to take the hit and fix our problems. I know my problem is accuracy issues part of the reason why I'm changing to a 5 step delivery which is hurting my averages right now. I personally think Aslan is going to have to break down and take a step backward to go forward and start developing his revs if we wants to take that next step. He might disagree with me on that. I don't know your game well enough Iceman to see what your issue is that holds you back but I'm sure you know what it is. Are you willing to do what it takes even if it requires a step backward to change your game for the better?

[MICHAEL]

Iceman You and Aslan haven't been doing this seriously that long. You are both still young in the sport. The difference between 200 and 220 is not that great it's one less split that leaves and open or and extra strike and spare a game its not daylight and dark. I have been bowling for a long time I started bowling youth leagues when I was 9 bowled until I was 18 average went from 67 to 197 (back in the old days when scores were lower) quit for 20 years now trying to come back to it. I didn't go to that 197 average at year three.

I believe there is something to your gift philosophy some people pick this game up faster than others. I have seen guys pick a house ball up off the rack and throw in the 150's never a lesson or practice in their life. I have seen a lot of them crash and burn when they developed a glitch along the way too. I am sure at that pro level they just have something that most of us don't have. Their is also a desire level and a time commitment that a lot of us just can't make. I was talking to the bowling center manager the other day who is about my age about when he started he has a 208 average which is towards the top at my house he started bowling about 6 years ago started in a league really liked it actually quit his job as a GM for Taco Bell to run the bowling center so he would have more practice time. He bowled 15 to 20 games a day working with a former PBA player who used to own our alley for almost 2 years before he broke 200 in his league average. This guy has won some decent size tournaments now and is pretty successful bowler.

For most of us this just isn't an option I can't bowl everyday and I don't have that access to a former PBA player anymore (I have worked with him in the past when I was a kid). I hope I can get to that 200 average but I don't think its going to be this fall or probably even next fall.

The other things is the ability and will to take the hit and fix our problems. I know my problem is accuracy issues part of the reason why I'm changing to a 5 step delivery which is hurting my averages right now. I personally think Aslan is going to have to break down and take a step backward to go forward and start developing his revs if we wants to take that next step. He might disagree with me on that. I don't know your game well enough Iceman to see what your issue is that holds you back but I'm sure you know what it is. Are you willing to do what it takes even if it requires a step backward to change your game for the better?

Thanks bud for the KIND WORDS,,,, brought tears to my eyes,,,, or should I say Ice droplets! Maybe there is HOPE FOR Aslan, and Iceman,,,good points!!

[Aslan]

Are you willing to do what it takes even if it requires a step backward to change your game for the better?

One thing that amazes me is when you hear about a high level PBA pro that "took a step back and changed their game." I mean, for someone at MY level that would just like to get competitive on the amateur circuits...to think that a legend like Chris Barnes or Mike Fagan would change something when they can average 247 on a THS pattern without changing ANYTHING...is humbling.