Ball Specifications/Tech Talk Part II

[Mike White]

I also feel, that wood lanes tend to be older...and due to their "softness" develop a slight "groove" over time. With over 70% of bowlers throwing up that 2nd arrow...it wouldn't surprise me in the least that a minute depression forms...which serves almost as a "track" for the ball to follow. It'd be interesting to have someone take a very sensitive type of leveling device to see if a wood lane around the arrows is actually flat...especially compared to a synthetic. I'd bet the wood lane is much less flat (theory).

Due to situation created by the bowling industry, (BPAA/USBC/Ball Manufactures) that theory would be wrong.

Wood lanes get sanded "flat" approximately every 2 years. Synthetic don't get sanded flat.

Any warp in a synthetic lane tends to stay there.

During the testing phase, the lane is only tested at 3 lengths from the foul line, and therefore, if not in compliance, only those 3 locations are corrected. (research lane topology for more info)

The ball track, i.e. depression, can act to pool oil rather than provide extra friction.

A better example of the ball track was back on lacquer. Then the oil was more into the surface, not so much on top. Oil didn't need to be applied every day, because it didn't move around much, if at all.

The groove was quite visible over time.

The last example of lacquer lanes on the PBA was the Angle Open at Dick Weber Lanes, St. Louis, which Bo Burton won.

He kept the ball in the groove all day, shooting 270's, 270's, 250's and 230's.

[Aslan]

But Mike...the density of synthetics would make them much less prone to that type of depression. I'm not saying over a long period of time it couldn't happen...but I can pound a groove into wood lanes in a matter of weeks versus what would take quite a while on a synthetic lane surface.

[bowl1820]

The ball track, i.e. depression, can act to pool oil rather than provide extra friction.

From Kegel:

"A depression is the opposite of a crown. The shape is measured by the amount of decrease from the zero point. This concave shape allows bowlers to feel that there is more swing area but less hold. It can make a line near the gutter have more swing area. Basically, five units of oil can react more like two units of oil.

A depression can also force players to cross an increase number of boards. The pressure the ball feels on a depression is greater when crossing boards which increases friction between the ball and the lane. But a ball thrown on a more direct trajectory will have trouble reaching its break point because of this increased friction.

A depressed lane is very much like a banked turn on a race track. When an automobile or motorcycle hits the banked curve, it becomes easier to turn and also slows easier. The momentum of the vehicle is now compressed into the embankment."

[bowl1820]

But Mike...the density of synthetics would make them much less prone to that type of depression. I'm not saying over a long period of time it couldn't happen...but I can pound a groove into wood lanes in a matter of weeks versus what would take quite a while on a synthetic lane surface.

Some reading material about topography:
click for Bowling Bedlam - The Lane

click for Topography: What does it all mean?

click for Weather, Topography, and Ball Motion

[Mike White]

But Mike...the density of synthetics would make them much less prone to that type of depression. I'm not saying over a long period of time it couldn't happen...but I can pound a groove into wood lanes in a matter of weeks versus what would take quite a while on a synthetic lane surface.

The non-flatness of synthetic lanes has more to do with the installation, and inspection criteria, than the usage.

[Mike White]

From Kegel:

"A depression is the opposite of a crown. The shape is measured by the amount of decrease from the zero point. This concave shape allows bowlers to feel that there is more swing area but less hold. It can make a line near the gutter have more swing area. Basically, five units of oil can react more like two units of oil.

A depression can also force players to cross an increase number of boards. The pressure the ball feels on a depression is greater when crossing boards which increases friction between the ball and the lane. But a ball thrown on a more direct trajectory will have trouble reaching its break point because of this increased friction.

A depressed lane is very much like a banked turn on a race track. When an automobile or motorcycle hits the banked curve, it becomes easier to turn and also slows easier. The momentum of the vehicle is now compressed into the embankment."

This makes sense if you happen to be playing from the foothills, through the valley, in up into the other foothills. But what if you happen to playing right in the valley, No tilt, just the collection of oil that has run down from the foothills.

http://www.kegel.net/V3/ContentModelD.aspx?ID=70

This link talks about the limited area of the lane that gets inspected, and how synthetic lanes are not as flat at wood.

[bowl1820]

But what if you happen to playing right in the valley

That is basically covered by this:

"A depressed lane is very much like a banked turn on a race track. When an automobile or motorcycle hits the banked curve, it becomes easier to turn and also slows easier. The momentum of the vehicle is now compressed into the embankment." "

In other words the ball is not rolling dead center down the middle of the valley.

also theres

"The reason for this increased loss of energy is the rotational effect of the bowling ball against the side hill of the depression."

Also a ball riding in the groove/track will have a increased footprint on the lane, so the friction would be increased by that also.

In regard to crowns & depressions in the lane:
"These seemingly minute irregularities can cause a ball to increase its footprint which increases the friction between the ball and the lane. This will make the ball slow down more therefore increasing the hook potential. These topographical irregularities may also decrease the footprint between the ball and the lane which causes less friction. This makes the ball slow down less therefore decreasing the hook potential."


Now I'm sure you'll find fault with this. So whatever floats your boat (or ball) and if the track is filling up with oil and your not getting any friction don't play in the track.

[Mike White]

How could I not find fault with that..... How could you not find fault with that.

Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post

But what if you happen to (be) playing right in the valley?

That is basically covered by this:

"A depressed lane is very much like a banked turn on a race track. When an automobile or motorcycle hits the banked curve, it becomes easier to turn and also slows easier. The momentum of the vehicle is now compressed into the embankment." "

In other words the ball is not rolling dead center down the middle of the valley.

So you're saying the situation I asked about is covered by the quote, but then you say the quoted text is saying the ball is not doing what I asked about.

So how exactly was that covered?

also theres

"The reason for this increased loss of energy is the rotational effect of the bowling ball against the side hill of the depression."

Again I asked about the situation where the ball doesn't contact the side hill of the depression.

Also a ball riding in the groove/track will have a increased footprint on the lane, so the friction would be increased by that also.

Stating what it will do, is unsupported by what you quoted as your source..

In regard to crowns & depressions in the lane:
"These seemingly minute irregularities can cause a ball to increase its footprint which increases the friction between the ball and the lane. This will make the ball slow down more therefore increasing the hook potential. These topographical irregularities may also decrease the footprint between the ball and the lane which causes less friction. This makes the ball slow down less therefore decreasing the hook potential."

Ok so you're quote is saying it can do one thing, but it also may do exactly the opposite.


Most of the problem is that you have lost the context. Aslan asked about the track on wood lanes, and commented he thought synthetic lanes would be flatter.

Synthetic lanes are less flat because of the crowns and depressions caused by installation / weather, and these depressions are not removed every 2 years, like the track/groove is removed from wood lanes.

The groove / depression of a wood lane is caused by balls rolling in the same area repeatedly, and the hills would be the outer edges of those repeated shots. Therefore a number of balls are rolled "in the valley".

Synthetic lanes don't develop a depression type of track.

They develop a higher friction / worn surface type of track.

[bowl1820]

Most of the problem is that you have lost the context. Aslan asked about the track on wood lanes, and commented he thought synthetic lanes would be flatter.

Your right the context has been lost. By you.

I Org. commented to what Aslan said here:

I also feel, that wood lanes tend to be older...and due to their "softness" develop a slight "groove" over time. With over 70% of bowlers throwing up that 2nd arrow...it wouldn't surprise me in the least that a minute depression forms...which serves almost as a "track" for the ball to follow. It'd be interesting to have someone take a very sensitive type of leveling device to see if a wood lane around the arrows is actually flat...especially compared to a synthetic. I'd bet the wood lane is much less flat (theory).

That yes the groove he referred to in wood lanes is called the Track .

And that they did have devices for checking the level and for depressions of the lane surface.

I didn't address the wood lane flatness and ended my comment.

So is in context with his post.

Then You brought up the

The ball track, i.e. depression, can act to pool oil rather than provide extra friction.

I never said anything about the track providing extra friction. All I said was that the texture of wood causes wood to have more friction.

My comments there after were in the context of your posts.

Now we are both looking at the information on Kegel's site, where does it talk about the oil pooling up in the depressions.

The main things they talked about are the crowns and depressions.

And basically they say when the ball is on the crown it acts like it sees oil, when in the depression it acts like its dry.(Now yes there's more to it than that, but everyone can go read the links themselves and make up there own mind.)

Synthetic lanes are less flat because of the crowns and depressions caused by installation / weather, and these depressions are not removed every 2 years, like the track/groove is removed from wood lanes.

True

The groove / depression of a wood lane is caused by balls rolling in the same area repeatedly, and the hills would be the outer edges of those repeated shots. Therefore a number of balls are rolled "in the valley".

True

But your assuming the bottom of that valley is flat, but it's not.

The ball will have more contact with the lane surface in the valley (Larger foot print) and this is the real world. The ball is not going to be rolling perfectly down the middle of (the Valley), it's going to be bumping into and/or pushing against the sides. (And no your not going to see the ball rattling back and forth)

Synthetic lanes don't develop a depression type of track.
They develop a higher friction / worn surface type of track.

Okay you said this:

"The groove / depression of a wood lane is caused by balls rolling in the same area repeatedly"
Okay the track is caused by wear , I agree.

Now you say Synthetic lanes
"develop a higher friction / worn surface type of track"
Okay so the track is caused by wear, I agree.

and is a "higher friction" area, so the track/depression shows more friction. That's what I said.

Synthetic lanes also develop crowns and depressions do to installation and weather issue's.

Now everyone don't listen to us!

Mike see's the information one way and I see it another. Go read the articles yourself and make up your own mind.

I'll end here, this going to go nowhere.

[Aslan]

I want Iceman to weigh in on this.

This discussion is giving me a headache.