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Thread: 1st Annual BowlingBoards.com Virtual Tour!!!

  1. #171
    Bowling God MICHAEL's Avatar
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    Default Icemans thoughts on handicap

    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    If Iceman does NOT stop his temper tantrum and step up to represent Missouri....then Missouri (and Iceman) are DEAD TO ME!! Come on Ice!!

    Irony...if Iceman bowls a 300 during the Tour and then is forced to tell us about it. DOHT!!!
    Hey,,, I think its GREAT what your doing in regards to time and effort for this tournament. Maybe the next one lets have a pure who is the REAL BEST BOWLER, SCRATCH tournament.

    It's not that I think I would win....lol,,, It's like a special Olympics' when you add the handicap factor. If I win, I win,,, I don't like handicap bowing either. (((BUT ITS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to find a Scratch league around here, or anywhere else))).

    When I ran track at William Jewell College,,, and I knew that a another runner had better times then me, they didn't give me a 40 yard jump on the guy, just because he was faster. (ran the 1/4 mile, 440 yard dash)

    I am not that GREAT of a Bowler, but on a given day, I can beat anyone! I have seen even the best Pro's have GREAT days and Poor day! For sure their GOOD ones are much more common then their poor ones!

    I would like to see 4 or 5 man/woman teams, scratch representing each STATE! My team scratch would be, The Dude, The Beast, Gene, Manic and Iceman! Maybe next the next one would be a lot simpler..... SCRATCH

    GOOD LUCK with your tournament..... with handicap its real hard for me to say, may the best person win..... but sounds like a lot of FUN!

    I will be watching, form here!
    Don't walk on Thin Ice!

  2. #172
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MICHAEL View Post
    I don't like handicap bowing either. (((BUT ITS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to find a Scratch league around here, or anywhere else))).
    Ice, you know I have respect for ya and think you're a stand-up guy and all…but hearing bowlers talk about how all bowling should be scratch when they themselves are in all handicap leagues….is lame. And don't give me that, "it's so hard to find a scratch league" nonsense. You have SO many options whether scratch leagues or tournament play…yet you CHOOSE to just play in a couple handicap leagues in your one house that you know. Hell, I've even played in a tournament already and I'm nowhere NEAR your talent level! Not saying your concerns aren't legitimate…I'm sure sport leagues are harder to find…but until you find them….criticzing handicap play is ridiculous.

    Everyone has to go out and play their best. If vdub can't bowl his average…and ZDawg bowls 40 pins above his…zdawg was the better bowler. All handicap does is close the "experience gap".

    Quote Originally Posted by noeymc View Post
    also Aslan i have never even heard of seven hills lol i will have to find it
    #2 on my list of things that surprised me while making the center list = all you people whining that there aren't many centers near you…you'd be SHOCKED at how many centers are near you.

    Smallest number I think was 13 for ZDawg (sorry, but San Diego sucks for bowling centers)…followed by tccstudent (16) because Oklahoma is, well, Oklahoma. I think the one with the most centers within 90 miles was Mudpuppy…148 centers!! But there were lots of choices!! Which is why it took me so damn long to make the lists. And it didn't help that 4 of our bowlers are from traditionally strong bowling areas like Detroit area, Chicago area, New York area, and Missouri not to mention with the exception of classy granny, noeymc, vdub, and stormed….all the other 8 participants lived near enough to state/USBC chapter borders that I had to take into account more than 1 state/chapter when creating their list. I mean, Janderson's state is barely 90 miles across and borders 3 states and he's almost within 90 miles of a 4th. Much different challenge than tic student where there's really only 1-2 cities with a stoplight in a 90-mile radius.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    Ok, based on the criteria above, how did you assign me a 195 average? That was from 2 summers ago.

    And how did you assign 151 to yourself. You commented above how you would be 165-166.
    As stated, a bowler's average will be their average or composite average of the last year listed on Bowl.com. ONLY IF they do not have an average listed nor USBC number will league scoresheets be used.

    Since you had averages listed, those most current averages were used from Bowl.com. Since I did not have averages listed, my average is a composite of both my leagues from 2013 which comes out to a 151. Had my 165 average been listed on USBC, I would have just used that and ignored my upper 130s average from the non-sanctioned league I was in with Bunny. But, since it wasn't listed in time for the averages to be established, per the rules, a composite based on scoresheets was used. And we can't necessarily "throw out" non-sanctioned averages since we have a few participants that are non-USBC members and those are the only scores they have. Bunny's average is based on the same non-sanctioned league that my 2nd average was generated in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    As for the average used the 2nd month. Your example is the ONLY time I've ever seen the first session's entry average used in computing the average to be used in the 2nd session.

    In the real world, you either continue to use the entering average, or you take total pins divided by games bowled. Again, not a good idea to reinvent the wheel.
    There is a good reason for doing it this way. This league is unusually short. We're going to have roughly 7 months bowling once per month. That makes using established averages difficult. Most leagues take a few weeks to establish an average…and shorter leagues (10-weeks) always have trouble with sandbaggers. Using the average in the calculation keeps your performances the next 7 weeks grounded in reality. It's less possible to sandbag…and you're less harmed if you have a rare 800 series out of the gate.

    You for example…if you bowl a 120, 120, 102…that will lower you average into the 140s and obviously help you going forward…but not AS MUCH as if you got to start in the 120s. In the same respect, if you bowl an 800 series…you don't have to drop out of the tournament after month 1…because you start next moth with a 700 series average…more reasonable.

    It's simply a way to keep averages somewhat grounded in reality for a shorter than average league.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    Even though we have an even # of entries, the Bye / Absent score thing needs to be agreed upon, because as this thing winds down, there will be people who realize they can't qualify for the finals, and will probably drop out.
    I thought we already decided…but I'll re-state:

    If you bowl against a player that does not show or does not bowl or does not make an attempt to get their scores in on time…you bowl against their average (at the time) minus 10 pins from their handicap.

    If we have bowlers enter the tournament late…and it gives us an odd number of participants…the person bowling against an open spot will be drawn an opponent to bowl against…and then 2 players will be bowling against said opponent (DRAW SYSTEM).

    Quote Originally Posted by J Anderson View Post
    No, the 167 is opposite hand (lefty).
    I'll reset the average based on your right hand. So it'll be the adjusted 193.

    Gotta Go! I'm gonna bowl my series this morning!! Get it out of the way early!!
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  3. #173
    Pin Crusher noeymc's Avatar
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    i've never complained about having bowling allys i just never go that way cuz i hate cleveland traffic and that is right on the way. i know there are a **** load by me lol
    Stroker
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  4. #174
    Bowling God MICHAEL's Avatar
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    Default I know who is going to win Aslan,,, I had a DREAM!!

    Find me some scratch leagues at either of my AMF,,, here in the Kansas city area! LOL.... DON"T GET ME WRONG,,, Its not that Iceman thinks he in one HELL OF A BOWLER....LOL, its just what I call REAL DEAL! I win, or I lose simple level playing field! If I get beat, then he/she is a better bowler THAT DAY! But,,,, but on any given day even a avocado can shine!

    Sooooo many arguments over what a fair handicap should be,,,, what lanes to bowl ,,, how far should you have to drive for the $25.00!

    Let people choose their own lanes, close to home, or make the pot worth the drive! Say 2500.00 bucks! ( Have a alley manager verify that the scores were not tampered with, like when you prebowl! POST A PICTURE of the score board, use your cell phone to take that picture, along with the managements verification! (most managers would do it, they want your business).

    I would say the hardest part of this is the honesty issue! MOST PEOPLE, 95 percent in my opinion are HONEST! But its that last 5 percent that, well need I say more??

    MY AMF, at Vivion here in Kansas city does not have a scratch league, nor are any of it's tournaments! Give them a call!

    I guess I can search some independent lanes, and probably will!

    Winning to ME, is WINNING, not giving me pins!

    I know this subject has been hashed around a bunch, but this is JUST MY THOUGHTS and opinions, and you know what they say about OPINIONS!!

    Looking forward to seeing who wins your tournament,,,,, I know who I think that person might be,,,,, I had a DREAM last night,,,, it was ????
    Don't walk on Thin Ice!

  5. #175
    Bowling God MICHAEL's Avatar
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    Default Who will win ??



    I had a dream,,,, My dreams seem to be right on the MONEY! Why I dreamed of Aslan's tournament is beyond me! But I think it was sent from a higher power... so that I can place a wager in Vegas!!!

    Last edited by MICHAEL; 04-13-2014 at 02:44 PM.
    Don't walk on Thin Ice!

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    As stated, a bowler's average will be their average or composite average of the last year listed on Bowl.com. ONLY IF they do not have an average listed nor USBC number will league scoresheets be used.

    Since you had averages listed, those most current averages were used from Bowl.com. Since I did not have averages listed, my average is a composite of both my leagues from 2013 which comes out to a 151. Had my 165 average been listed on USBC, I would have just used that and ignored my upper 130s average from the non-sanctioned league I was in with Bunny. But, since it wasn't listed in time for the averages to be established, per the rules, a composite based on scoresheets was used. And we can't necessarily "throw out" non-sanctioned averages since we have a few participants that are non-USBC members and those are the only scores they have. Bunny's average is based on the same non-sanctioned league that my 2nd average was generated in.
    Ok I see where to went off the tracks.

    My averages listed for 2013-2014 so far are 198 for 3 games as a sub, and 192 for 30 games as a late season replacement.

    You took the 198, and added it to 192, giving 390, then divided that by 2, giving 195.

    That is not how a composite average works.

    The proper way (since we don't have access to the actual pin totals, just the avg and games) is to take
    198 * 3 = 594,
    192 * 30 = 5760,

    3 + 30 = 33,
    594 + 5760 = 6354,

    6354 / 33 = 192 which is my composite average.

    If you got that one wrong, who knows how many other ones you got wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    There is a good reason for doing it this way. This league is unusually short. We're going to have roughly 7 months bowling once per month. That makes using established averages difficult. Most leagues take a few weeks to establish an average…and shorter leagues (10-weeks) always have trouble with sandbaggers. Using the average in the calculation keeps your performances the next 7 weeks grounded in reality. It's less possible to sandbag…and you're less harmed if you have a rare 800 series out of the gate.

    Yes, there is a reason, and it's because you like to reinvent the wheel. But no, it's not a good one.

    If you really are worried about sandbaggers, then use the entry average for all the weeks.

    That way people aren't harmed by bowling good, and sandbagging (in this competition) is of no value.

  7. #177
    Pin Crusher noeymc's Avatar
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    if it was scratch you wouldnt have to worry about sandbagging =D
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  8. #178
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noeymc View Post
    i've never complained about having bowling allys i just never go that way cuz i hate cleveland traffic and that is right on the way. i know there are a **** load by me lol
    Well you're in luck kiddo!! Seven Hills is Northeast of Strongsville, well south of Cleveland…so if the 480 takes ya too close to Cleveland, jump on the good ole I-80 and you'll be there in 30 minutes +/-.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICHAEL View Post
    Sooooo many arguments over what a fair handicap should be,,,, what lanes to bowl ,,, how far should you have to drive for the $25.00!

    Let people choose their own lanes, close to home, or make the pot worth the drive! Say 2500.00 bucks! ( Have a alley manager verify that the scores were not tampered with, like when you prebowl! POST A PICTURE of the score board, use your cell phone to take that picture, along with the managements verification! (most managers would do it, they want your business).
    This coming from the guy that routinely bowls 300s at his home center. Why not just use league scores then? Every week, each of us bowls in a league…no need to even "try"…most of us post our scores on this website after we bowl anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICHAEL View Post
    I would say the hardest part of this is the honesty issue! MOST PEOPLE, 95 percent in my opinion are HONEST! But its that last 5 percent that, well need I say more??
    I'd say it's more like 45% are honest…but I guess I have less faith in humanity. Your craziness aside, I KNOW you'd be honest. You and me have that rare quality where if it's not worth winning honestly, then no matter what the actual prize, it's not worth winning. Most people I fear would cheat to win a trophy and stare at that trophy everyday…a testament to how awesome they are at cheating. Thats sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICHAEL View Post
    Winning to ME, is WINNING, not giving me pins!
    Then you'd like my ideas regarding how to fix league bowling. A system where new bowlers start in no tap and based on their averages are able to move up to beginner/handiicaps leagues…then once their average is high enough, they automatically graduate to scratch leagues. If they do poorly, they move back down to handicap leagues, etc… A system like that forces all the 200+ bowlers sitting in handicap leagues complaining about handicaps…to move up. And it would create more sport/scratch leagues because there suddenly would be a need for them. Problem solved.

    As to further discussions about averages and handicaps and all that….the averages are set, the handicap is set…it's time to stop jabbering and BOWL! Aslan has already bowled his series!! Now I just wait for the scores to start rolling in!!! Once I receive scores for BOTH competitors (bowling each other), I will post them. But I'd rather not post any results until BOTH have bowled so nobody has the unfair advantage of a "target" to bowl towards. I won't provide tr33frog a target by elaborating on my performance accept to say that no records were broken today, thats for sure! This bowling at a strange center with only one game of warm-up…not as easy as it may sound. ; )
    Last edited by Aslan; 04-13-2014 at 05:25 PM.

  9. #179
    Pin Crusher classygranny's Avatar
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    Well, it appears we may have our first forfeit unless the powers to be/whoever decides (Aslan, vdubtx, a once saw a committee of three) to give me a redraw. I just researched the AMF in Chandler and here's my "excuses" - such as they are...

    The AMF/Chandler opens at 5:00pm Mon-Thur and 4:00pm on Fri. They only open at Noon on the weekends. Here's the problem. Next weekend is my anniversary/weekend trip, and the next weekend I will be working on Saturday (so I can go on vacation in May) and Sunday is a ballgame event. My intent was to bowl this during the week so I didn't interfere with "family" time. As most of you know, my husband isn't much of a bowler, so we have agreed that we will keep our own sports out of our family time - except he does afford me Monday evenings for league. I just can't in my heart, take 45 min to an hour to drive to the SE valley to bowl for an hour (for bragging rights & $25) during our normal dinner time. Sorry, but my relationship is more important than my bowling. I need an alley that has some daytime hours so I can stop by during the weekday to bowl. If whoever decides on a redraw, understands this - great; if not, good luck vdubtx, sorry (:<.
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  10. #180
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classygranny View Post
    Well, it appears we may have our first forfeit unless the powers to be/whoever decides (Aslan, vdubtx, a once saw a committee of three) to give me a redraw. I just researched the AMF in Chandler and here's my "excuses" - such as they are...

    The AMF/Chandler opens at 5:00pm Mon-Thur and 4:00pm on Fri. They only open at Noon on the weekends. Here's the problem. My intent was to bowl this during the week so I didn't interfere with "family" time.
    Thats a legitimate reason. I tried to screen centers that were chosen to make sure they were "semi-legitimate" but I forgot AMF is COMPLETE GARBAGE. I guess I need to double check the hours…I can't BELIEVE they aren't open till 5PM every single weekday except one…just stupid.

    Your re-draw is:
    Bell Lanes, Sun City AZ. < 45 miles, opens at 8AM every day I think.

    I hope that helps!

    - Aslan

    P.S. Classygranny, please give them a call 623-876-3050 and double check that it is open to the public. Since Sun City (you already know this but others may not) is a weird type of retirement community…they have goofy policies sometimes about non-residents of Sun City at some of the businesses. I was going to call and verify but it's too late at night right now.
    Last edited by Aslan; 04-13-2014 at 10:42 PM.

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