Me bowling advice appreciated

[rv driver]

Great observation! You've just defined the modern game of bowling.

Yeah, but everybody says "don't muscle the swing -- just let the ball fall." It appears as though these guys are muscling the ball. Explanation, plz! Is it some kind of optical illusion? Or is "pushing" not the same thing as "muscling?"

[zdawg]

Yeah, but everybody says "don't muscle the swing -- just let the ball fall." It appears as though these guys are muscling the ball. Explanation, plz! Is it some kind of optical illusion? Or is "pushing" not the same thing as "muscling?"

I'm very curious about this too, when I first started out last year I was constantly told not to muscle the ball so I developed an extremely low ball speed partially due to the fact that I was basically using as close to zero muscling as possible.

My guess, and its really just a guess, is that some degree of muscling is ok but it depends on the point in the swing at which you are applying the muscling?

I'll wait for Rob to explain, but this is something I've been meaning to ask for a while and I keep forgetting about it

[rv driver]

I'm very curious about this too, when I first started out last year I was constantly told not to muscle the ball so I developed an extremely low ball speed partially due to the fact that I was basically using as close to zero muscling as possible.

My guess, and its really just a guess, is that some degree of muscling is ok but it depends on the point in the swing at which you are applying the muscling?

I'll wait for Rob to explain, but this is something I've been meaning to ask for a while and I keep forgetting about it

from what I've heard and observed, I believe ball speed comes from the speed of the footwork in the approach. I believe that the swing speed happens at the release & follow-through. My question is that these pros appear to be muscling the ball on the downswing. You can see it in their shoulders.

[Amyers]

I'm sure rob will come along and give a better answer than this but some muscle can be applied through the forward swing but for a lot of us this will lead to accuracy problems. It's the same as all of it your feet too fast timing problems, your back swing too high it will throw your aim off, muscle the ball your more likely to pull. Spine tilt is good spine tilt is bad keep your shoulders level drop your shoulder the truth is if it's successful for you do it but be ready for it to cause you problems somewhere along the way. Ball speed isn't all it's cracked up to be anyway. I was scared to death when I got my first reactive ball because I was a slower roller about 12 mph. I corrected a few things sped my footwork up messed some other stuff up doing it and got upto about 15 mph guess what I was throwing the ball too hard and throwing it through my break point I'm down to about 13.5 ball hits just fine. The best advice I can give you is find a medium where you rpm's and your mph's are evenly matched practice take in what works for you and once you get to that point of having a 200 average or so maybe you need this stuff to goto the next level I'm not sure yet.

[rv driver]

I'm sure rob will come along and give a better answer than this but some muscle can be applied through the forward swing but for a lot of us this will lead to accuracy problems. It's the same as all of it your feet too fast timing problems, your back swing too high it will throw your aim off, muscle the ball your more likely to pull. Spine tilt is good spine tilt is bad keep your shoulders level drop your shoulder the truth is if it's successful for you do it but be ready for it to cause you problems somewhere along the way. Ball speed isn't all it's cracked up to be anyway. I was scared to death when I got my first reactive ball because I was a slower roller about 12 mph. I corrected a few things sped my footwork up messed some other stuff up doing it and got upto about 15 mph guess what I was throwing the ball too hard and throwing it through my break point I'm down to about 13.5 ball hits just fine. The best advice I can give you is find a medium where you rpm's and your mph's are evenly matched practice take in what works for you and once you get to that point of having a 200 average or so maybe you need this stuff to goto the next level I'm not sure yet.

I know that when I used to throw the old ball slower, I'd get more hook. But it's a brand-new game now. I'm just gonna throw what feels good and adjust from there.

[RobLV1]

The pushing that you think you are seeing is really a lack of pulling. Those of us who have bowled for a long time are so used to seeing late timing used to try and create a big hook, that when we see neutral timing, it seems as though the bowler is pushing the ball. He's not. The goal of every bowler should be to create an armswing that is free from muscle. This not only creates direction and accuracy, it also creates speed. It is a misconception that faster feet create more ball speed, unless the faster feet include more steps to prevent late timing; Norm Duke is a good example. Fast feet can easily cause late timing, and late timing decreases ball speed. A free arm swing and neutral timing will give you the most ball speed that you are capable of.

[Aslan]

There was a massive debate about this back in October:

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads...r-scores/page2

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Aslan said things. 3 people called him "dumb" and 2 people called him "dangerous". Aslan learned about "Translational Kinetic Energy". Finally, months later, most everyone admitted that Aslan was partially correct in that all bowlers tend to add "muscle" at certain points in their swing.

Now:
Where was I WRONG...back then (I had only been bowling for like less than 2 months...so, cut a little slack)?

I didn't understand "timing" as well as I do now. I also had to get past bowling being like most other sports I've participated in. Golf is the best analogy. People will say, "Let the club do the work." And they are RIGHT...BUT....but...almost EVERY golfer applies force to their swing. You can't hit a golf ball more than 160 yards without adding force to the swing. John Daly is a perfect example of a guy that goes a little "too far" and adds a little "too much" energy to his swing. I had to LEARN that...over time...with coaching...with practice...with ups and downs (school of hard knocks) to let the ball (bowling) do more of the work.

Where was I RIGHT back then??

Muscling IS part of everyone's swing. I can GUARANTEE it! just go bowling...put the ball out in front of you (push away) and then do NOTHING....just do your 4 steps. The ONLY energy that will get added to the ball will be translational momentum as you walk....and your backswing will be tiny and the resulting shot...maybe 9-12mph??? Anyone that STILL disputes that...despite the visual evidence of nearly every bowler ever on tv/video...despite what they KNOW will happen if they try it themselves...is just not being honest. Translational energy...in 3-5 human steps...will not allow a 15lb object to get as high in the backswing as Rhino Page, Tommy Jones, Bill ALlen, etc... It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE...in other words...it violates physical laws of the universe!! Not to mention...Rob feels 90% of people will be 2-handed bowlers in 20 years...ever see a 2-handed bowler throw a ball?? Give him a muscle relaxer and see if he can throw without "muscling"! Same thing with thumbless and crankers...they MUST muscle to add those revs. It may not be adding muscle to the downswing or backswing...but it's adding muscle!!

Actually, my biggest challenge in my own game is how to get increased revs without getting increased speed. I have a tendency when trying to increase my rev rate...to increase my ball speed...which counters the increase in rev rate...but I digress....

Also...watch guys with late timing....you can SEE them accelerate their downswing! And finally...TIMING. What if...just what if...and Iceman and vdub may be confused by this since I imagine their timing to be so precise and perfect each time that this throught process elludes them...but, what if...your timing is "off" on a shot? What if you start sliding towards that foul line...and you realize "uh oh....ball not coming down yet!" Do you just come to a sliding stop and wait for gravity to do it's work? Or do you give the downswing a "little help"? 99.9999% of bowlers are going to slightly adjust how much they muscle based on their timing because actually, prefectly timing a release of a 15lb object...with the expected variation in human footwork..."help" is just about almost always necessary.

So while I am now more in agreement that "muscling is bad"...I still have seen relatively little evidence that it isn't part of everyone's game. The KEY...and I wasn't as aware of this then...is to get your timing better so you CAN allow the ball and gravity and momentum and physics to do as much of the work as possible. But muscling is absolutely necessary to every bowler's game. It allows you to speed up or slow down a backswing and forward swing (hopefully only a minor amount)....it allows you to change speeds....loft...rev rate...based on lane conditions.

[rv driver]

The pushing that you think you are seeing is really a lack of pulling. Those of us who have bowled for a long time are so used to seeing late timing used to try and create a big hook, that when we see neutral timing, it seems as though the bowler is pushing the ball. He's not. The goal of every bowler should be to create an armswing that is free from muscle. This not only creates direction and accuracy, it also creates speed. It is a misconception that faster feet create more ball speed, unless the faster feet include more steps to prevent late timing; Norm Duke is a good example. Fast feet can easily cause late timing, and late timing decreases ball speed. A free arm swing and neutral timing will give you the most ball speed that you are capable of.

Really?!?! Because I've heard so many experts say that "ball speed doesn't come from the swing, but from the feet." Not doubting you -- just scratching my head at the apparent dichotomy in delivery analysis.

So, what you're saying is that the shoulder thing is an optical illusion -- they're not really muscling the ball -- it's just what it looks it when they're not muscling the ball? It's just "good form" -- "neutral timing?"

[rv driver]

There was a massive debate about this back in October:

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads...r-scores/page2

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Aslan said things. 3 people called him "dumb" and 2 people called him "dangerous". Aslan learned about "Translational Kinetic Energy". Finally, months later, most everyone admitted that Aslan was partially correct in that all bowlers tend to add "muscle" at certain points in their swing.

Now:
Where was I WRONG...back then (I had only been bowling for like less than 2 months...so, cut a little slack)?

I didn't understand "timing" as well as I do now. I also had to get past bowling being like most other sports I've participated in. Golf is the best analogy. People will say, "Let the club do the work." And they are RIGHT...BUT....but...almost EVERY golfer applies force to their swing. You can't hit a golf ball more than 160 yards without adding force to the swing. John Daly is a perfect example of a guy that goes a little "too far" and adds a little "too much" energy to his swing. I had to LEARN that...over time...with coaching...with practice...with ups and downs (school of hard knocks) to let the ball (bowling) do more of the work.

Where was I RIGHT back then??

Muscling IS part of everyone's swing. I can GUARANTEE it! just go bowling...put the ball out in front of you (push away) and then do NOTHING....just do your 4 steps. The ONLY energy that will get added to the ball will be translational momentum as you walk....and your backswing will be tiny and the resulting shot...maybe 9-12mph??? Anyone that STILL disputes that...despite the visual evidence of nearly every bowler ever on tv/video...despite what they KNOW will happen if they try it themselves...is just not being honest. Translational energy...in 3-5 human steps...will not allow a 15lb object to get as high in the backswing as Rhino Page, Tommy Jones, Bill ALlen, etc... It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE...in other words...it violates physical laws of the universe!! Not to mention...Rob feels 90% of people will be 2-handed bowlers in 20 years...ever see a 2-handed bowler throw a ball?? Give him a muscle relaxer and see if he can throw without "muscling"! Same thing with thumbless and crankers...they MUST muscle to add those revs. It may not be adding muscle to the downswing or backswing...but it's adding muscle!!

Actually, my biggest challenge in my own game is how to get increased revs without getting increased speed. I have a tendency when trying to increase my rev rate...to increase my ball speed...which counters the increase in rev rate...but I digress....

Also...watch guys with late timing....you can SEE them accelerate their downswing! And finally...TIMING. What if...just what if...and Iceman and vdub may be confused by this since I imagine their timing to be so precise and perfect each time that this throught process elludes them...but, what if...your timing is "off" on a shot? What if you start sliding towards that foul line...and you realize "uh oh....ball not coming down yet!" Do you just come to a sliding stop and wait for gravity to do it's work? Or do you give the downswing a "little help"? 99.9999% of bowlers are going to slightly adjust how much they muscle based on their timing because actually, prefectly timing a release of a 15lb object...with the expected variation in human footwork..."help" is just about almost always necessary.

So while I am now more in agreement that "muscling is bad"...I still have seen relatively little evidence that it isn't part of everyone's game. The KEY...and I wasn't as aware of this then...is to get your timing better so you CAN allow the ball and gravity and momentum and physics to do as much of the work as possible. But muscling is absolutely necessary to every bowler's game. It allows you to speed up or slow down a backswing and forward swing (hopefully only a minor amount)....it allows you to change speeds....loft...rev rate...based on lane conditions.

I know as a musician that there's a difference in kinetics between relaxing and wiggling your fingers (if you're a guitar player) or arms (if you're a drummer), and tightening up and "forcing" the movements. Relaxed motion will win every time. It's called "hitting the groove." I rather suspect that bowling is much the same. You're still using muscles -- just in a "non-forced," relaxed way. I think that's the key. When I watch these pros throw, I can see the force in their arms and shoulders. What I don't see is tension. One pro told me not to "fight the weight" and suggested that I move down a # or two. Because when you "fight the weight," you tense up. There's a big difference between tensing the muscles and building up potential energy. What I'm seeing is potential energy, not tension.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Amyers, I think your game looks good. I paused on your video and your timing looks pretty good. Remember there is no wrong way to bowl. People have success with early and late timing. You are a big guy so when you are pulling the ball it may be getting outside of your body on pushaway. There is at least 1 guy giving advice that i can assure you would love to throw the ball like you. Balance at the line is very important and i see your concern for that. Just try to post each shot you make and stand there a few seconds after the ball hits the pins, i don't care if you pick the 7 off a full rack. It looks like the lanes hook quite a bit, don't be afraid to go to weaker equipment because you have plenty of ball motion to carry. Keep working out there and good luck.