Something I've been thinking about

[Aslan]

Why do you think that the Asylum would be weaker than the Euphoria?

Well, because the main difference between the Vivid and Euphoria is the cover stock; otherwise same specs. Now, while the Vivid cover stock is solid versus pearl…therefore much stronger, read the lane sooner…the Asylum is simply a hybrid cover stock. A little stronger, but not as much as the Vivid.

Add in the difference in differential and it just seems like if he's looking for more backend on fresh conditions, he's not going to get it from the Asylum.

But, I admit…it's hard to say. If he's playing on wood…it doesn't matter if it's a fresh shot…I can't see the condition ever being "heavy" enough that a solid overstock isn't going to hook too early. But, he has more speed…some loft…maybe he gets it down there more. But will the stronger cover necessarily hook "more"? I thought it was made to hook "sooner"…not "more"? But on wood lanes, if it hooks "sooner", is that what he wants?

Like with the video example Rob M. made…it's really hard to tell what a ball will do based on specs only, because it depends on how he throws it. On wood lanes…Pearls tend to do better because they don't grab too early. I'm just wondering if he moves to a hybrid or solid if it's going to hook "too soon" versus "more"…just wondering aloud...

[Amyers]

Well, because the main difference between the Vivid and Euphoria is the cover stock; otherwise same specs. Now, while the Vivid cover stock is solid versus pearl…therefore much stronger, read the lane sooner…the Asylum is simply a hybrid cover stock. A little stronger, but not as much as the Vivid.

Add in the difference in differential and it just seems like if he's looking for more backend on fresh conditions, he's not going to get it from the Asylum.

But, I admit…it's hard to say. If he's playing on wood…it doesn't matter if it's a fresh shot…I can't see the condition ever being "heavy" enough that a solid overstock isn't going to hook too early. But, he has more speed…some loft…maybe he gets it down there more. But will the stronger cover necessarily hook "more"? I thought it was made to hook "sooner"…not "more"? But on wood lanes, if it hooks "sooner", is that what he wants?

Like with the video example Rob M. made…it's really hard to tell what a ball will do based on specs only, because it depends on how he throws it. On wood lanes…Pearls tend to do better because they don't grab too early. I'm just wondering if he moves to a hybrid or solid if it's going to hook "too soon" versus "more"…just wondering aloud...

I don't know exactly how this is going to work out and these are good questions but a few things here

1. I think you are expecting all wood lanes to perform the same way your old wood lanes did not all wood is high surface I've mentioned before I've played on synthetics and I can't tell that much difference especially this summer with very little ac these lanes are playing tight.

2. There are lots of guys playing hybrids. IQ tour hybrid, venom shocks, and wreckers even two guys throwing a mastermind and a IQ tour solid but not as many of those I would say there are as many if not more hybrids than pearls being played.

3. One thing I disagree with Rob about on this though if the ball is sliding instead of rolling too far it will reduce the amount of hook. To little slide can have the same effect the ball burns up before it can hook. it all depends on ball speed and the amount of oil and how long the ball stays in it.

Like I said it may not work but we will see

[bowl1820]

Why do you think that the Asylum would be weaker than the Euphoria?

Well, because the main difference between the Vivid and Euphoria is the cover stock; otherwise same specs. Now, while the Vivid cover stock is solid versus pearl…therefore much stronger, read the lane sooner…the Asylum is simply a hybrid cover stock. A little stronger, but not as much as the Vivid.

Okay, you said the Vivid has a stronger cover than the Euphoria and the Asylum cover is a little stronger (than the Euphoria).
None of that makes the Asylum weaker than the Euphoria.

Add in the difference in differential and it just seems like if he's looking for more backend on fresh conditions, he's not going to get it from the Asylum.

Higher differentials provide more flare potential. The key word here is "potential" and that is dependent on the bowlers release. If your only getting 3" of flare now, it basically doesn't matter if it has 5" or 6" or 7" of flare potential your only going to get 3".

Your equating strength with backend (which a lot of bowlers do), I'm with earlier means stronger .

Just because a ball has more backend doesn't necessarily mean it's stronger.

But will the stronger cover necessarily hook "more"?

The stronger cover paired with the stronger core of the Asylum, will give it more hook than the Euphoria.

I thought it was made to hook "sooner"…not "more"? But on wood lanes, if it hooks "sooner", is that what he wants?

Yes the lower RG of the Asylum will let it rev up earlier and He said "I need something more on the heavier oil."

Like with the video example Rob M. made…it's really hard to tell what a ball will do based on specs only, because it depends on how he throws it. On wood lanes…Pearls tend to do better because they don't grab too early. I'm just wondering if he moves to a hybrid or solid if it's going to hook "too soon" versus "more"…just wondering aloud...

I think Amyers said it best "you are expecting all wood lanes to perform the same way your old wood lanes did "

[bowl1820]

Bowl1820 what exactly does flare mean? I've seen it on most balls some say 1-3 some more but I'm not sure what that corresponds too.

Flare is the ball changing its axis of rotation as it goes down the lane, so that it's rolling on a fresher part of the ball surface. You see that as several oil rings around the ball.

[Amyers]

Flare is the ball changing its axis of rotation as it goes down the lane, so that it's rolling on a fresher part of the ball surface. You see that as several oil rings around the ball.

So the more flare the farther the oil rings will be spaced apart correct at least potentially depending on the bowlers angle of release correct? Potentially increasing the strength of the ball with higher numbers of flare?

[bowl1820]

So the more flare the farther the oil rings will be spaced apart correct at least potentially depending on the bowlers angle of release correct? Potentially increasing the strength of the ball with higher numbers of flare?

Okay about flare (the distance from the first ring of oil (near the thumb hole), to the last ring).

The thing about flare is that all it does is provide more fresh surface of the the ball to come in contact with the lane.

The more fresh surface to contact the lane, the more friction and as a result, the earlier hook.

Now remember I said earlier, not more. friction just provides earlier hook, not more hook.

[Amyers]

Okay about flare (the distance from the first ring of oil (near the thumb hole), to the last ring).

The thing about flare is that all it does is provide more fresh surface of the the ball to come in contact with the lane.

The more fresh surface to contact the lane, the more friction and as a result, the earlier hook.

Now remember I said earlier, not more. friction just provides earlier hook, not more hook.

Okay that makes sense although seems strange in light of my euphoria at 7" is seems to be one of the higher flaring balls and I don't see anything early about it I'm guessing because of the polish and cover stock. Thanks I have never had an explanation of this before. One less number out there I don't understand.

[Aslan]

I think Amyers said it best "you are expecting all wood lanes to perform the same way your old wood lanes did "

Are you saying that you're aware of wood lanes that have less "traction" than synthetics? It was my understanding that wood is on the extreme end of that spectrum. I mean, sure...dry plywood would be less slick than wood lanes...but I've only seen synthetic lanes behave "drier" than wood lanes once...and that was after a Thanksgiving weekend when it was fairly clear they hadn't been oiled since the Wednesday before the Thanksgiving weekend.

Bowl knows more than me...I just have never seen it.

[Amyers]

Are you saying that you're aware of wood lanes that have less "traction" than synthetics? It was my understanding that wood is on the extreme end of that spectrum. I mean, sure...dry plywood would be less slick than wood lanes...but I've only seen synthetic lanes behave "drier" than wood lanes once...and that was after a Thanksgiving weekend when it was fairly clear they hadn't been oiled since the Wednesday before the Thanksgiving weekend.

Bowl knows more than me...I just have never seen it.

I'm not saying on average wood has less traction than synthetic. I am believing that you have an extreme example of wood that your comparing to synthetics. I bowl once a week on synthetics I will say they are not freshly oiled when I play them but they are within a board or two of each other between the two houses. Most days my line is the same don't really line up any different. Now could I be comparing heavy oiled wood to low oil synthetics maybe I don't know and probably wont unless I start a league or bowl a tournament on the synthetics.

[RobLV1]

A couple of things strike me immediately about this thread:

1. When we talk about amount of hook, there are two ways to look at measuring it. Personally, I like to define the amount of hook as the number of degrees of change of direction of the bowling ball between the time that it quits skidding, and starts rolling. This amount of angle is totally dependent on the release of the bowler. The other way of defining the amount of hook is by counting the amount of boards covered by the ball from the time it is laid down on the lane, out to the breakpoint, and back to the pocket. By measuring the amount of hook in this way, a ball that hooks earlier is said to hook more because it covers more boards. In my book, this is nonsense that does nothing but clouding the issue.

2. One of my favorite lines from daytime television is when Judge Judy says, "They don't keep me here 'cause I'm gorgeous, they keep me here 'cause I'm smart," followed up by, "That doesn't make sense to me, and if it doesn't make sense then it's not true." Let's look at the concept of a wider flare pattern providing more friction because more fresh surface of the ball is exposed to the lane, in a Judge Judian fashion. Say, for argument sake that there are six rings of flare arcross a three inch area on ball A, and six rings of flare across a six inch area on ball B. On ball A, there is 1/2" of space between the six rings, and on ball B there is 1" of space between the six rings. Whether there is 1/2" of space, or 1" of space, both balls are seeing the same amount of fresh surface come in contact with the lane. The only place where there will be minimally more fresh surface exposed to the lane is at the two bow ties, and that amount is so small to be insignificant. Conclusion: A ball that flares more does not hook more because more fresh surface comes in contact with the lane. It may, in fact, hook more, but not for this reason.