14# vs 15# ball

[RobLV1]

I think going one pound lighter is generally better if you are unsure that you will be able to throw the heavier weight. When I first began bowling, I started with an 8lb ball. That was perfect for me at the time since I was still a kid under 100lbs. I moved up to a 12lb ball with a fingertip grip and it was pretty heavy for me at first. A few months later once I had grown quite a bit more, I was actually able to control the ball well and increased my average quite a bit. Now that I am going to be a college student, I'm thinking of buying a 14lb or 15lb ball for club sports use. I think I'm leaning towards the 14lb ball just so I can get more speed on it which should provide more momentum than a slower 15lb ball. It should also give me greater control, which is far more important.

For those who haven't ever heard the 10% rule, it states that you should bowl with a ball no more than 10% of your body weight. Granted, this is not at all a perfect rule and leaves out many factors, but it's a good guideline. I think that if you are under 160lbs, you probably shouldn't be throwing a 16lb ball unless you are really short and muscular.

The 10% "rule" is for children who are not fully mature physically to keep them from injuring themselves. It doesn't apply to adults. Norm Duke throws 16 lb., and he weighs about 140 soaking wet!

I bowled with a guy last week who went to 14 lb to get more ball speed. It didn't work. Most bowlers who are unable to get the ball speed that they want have timing that is so far off that it prevents them from attaining a free armswing which is the key to ball speed. Before you decide on a ball weight, I suggest you invest in a lesson with a qualified coach and see if you can increase your ball speed without sacrificing ball weight.

[HowDoIHookAgain]

Everyone has been answering your first question and not the second xD. But I'll give an answer for the first, and then the second. There really is no difference between 14 and 15 pounds today. The make of the balls is becoming so perfect and everything, that you could probably use 14 pounds against 16 and yield similar results. If you are struggling with the 15 pound ball, then I would switch to the 14 pound ball just because your shots will be more consistent, and you won't risk the chance of a possible injury.

Now for the second question. It's really not common for a lack of hook to be because of pin placement. There are normally 3 things that will affect the hook of your ball:
1. The oil pattern that is on the lanes (also includes how much/little oil is on the pattern)
2. The makeup of your ball. This includes where your ball is drilled, what kind of ball it is, the core used, etc.
3. Your approach, timing, swing, release, and all of that good stuff that's all you

I did some research on the Optimus and Punch Out as well. According to bowlingball.com, the Punch Out has a Perfect Scale (hook rating 1-300, where 1 is no hook potential and 300 is insane hook potential) of 175.5. The Optimus, however, has a Perfect Scale of 212.7. I would say the difference between the hook of your balls would have to be that right there. The Optimus is clearly the more aggressive ball. If you feel that you are not getting the hook you want to get with the Punch Out, then I suggest two possible solutions.
1. If you have the money, buy a 14# Optimus so you get the best of both worlds
2. If you are tight on cash, then I would try working with the Punch Out and seeing if you could possibly change anything with your lines/foot placement to make the ball better suited for your style

This is coming from a kid, so don't take my advice to heart and drop $150-215 on an Optimus, but this is what I think. Hope I helped

[John Anderson]

I bowled with a guy last week who went to 14 lb to get more ball speed. It didn't work. Most bowlers who are unable to get the ball speed that they want have timing that is so far off that it prevents them from attaining a free armswing which is the key to ball speed. Before you decide on a ball weight, I suggest you invest in a lesson with a qualified coach and see if you can increase your ball speed without sacrificing ball weight.

I think you make an excellent point that technique can be far more important than just raw strength. I haven't really considered that there are pros who throw 16lb balls all the time and are about the same size I am. I don't know that I will be investing in coaching just yet, but I will have a good chat with my local pro shop guy that I've bought all my equipment from and have been very happy with the results. Thank you for the advice.

[RobLV1]

Everyone has been answering your first question and not the second xD. But I'll give an answer for the first, and then the second. There really is no difference between 14 and 15 pounds today. The make of the balls is becoming so perfect and everything, that you could probably use 14 pounds against 16 and yield similar results. If you are struggling with the 15 pound ball, then I would switch to the 14 pound ball just because your shots will be more consistent, and you won't risk the chance of a possible injury.

Now for the second question. It's really not common for a lack of hook to be because of pin placement. There are normally 3 things that will affect the hook of your ball:
1. The oil pattern that is on the lanes (also includes how much/little oil is on the pattern)
2. The makeup of your ball. This includes where your ball is drilled, what kind of ball it is, the core used, etc.
3. Your approach, timing, swing, release, and all of that good stuff that's all you

I did some research on the Optimus and Punch Out as well. According to bowlingball.com, the Punch Out has a Perfect Scale (hook rating 1-300, where 1 is no hook potential and 300 is insane hook potential) of 175.5. The Optimus, however, has a Perfect Scale of 212.7. I would say the difference between the hook of your balls would have to be that right there. The Optimus is clearly the more aggressive ball. If you feel that you are not getting the hook you want to get with the Punch Out, then I suggest two possible solutions.
1. If you have the money, buy a 14# Optimus so you get the best of both worlds
2. If you are tight on cash, then I would try working with the Punch Out and seeing if you could possibly change anything with your lines/foot placement to make the ball better suited for your style

This is coming from a kid, so don't take my advice to heart and drop $150-215 on an Optimus, but this is what I think. Hope I helped

I hate to shatter your delusion, but if you gauge the amount of hook by the angle of the change of direction, then the only thing that determines how much a ball hooks is the release of the bowler. If you gauge the amount of hook by the number of boards covered, then the ball that hooks the most is the one that hooks the soonest. The problem is that when a ball hooks sooner, it rolls sooner, and then rolls out sooner. IMHO, the perfect scale is a load of crap made for bowlers who don't want to take the time to really learn about modern bowling balls.

[HowDoIHookAgain]

I hate to shatter your delusion, but if you gauge the amount of hook by the angle of the change of direction, then the only thing that determines how much a ball hooks is the release of the bowler. If you gauge the amount of hook by the number of boards covered, then the ball that hooks the most is the one that hooks the soonest. The problem is that when a ball hooks sooner, it rolls sooner, and then rolls out sooner. IMHO, the perfect scale is a load of crap made for bowlers who don't want to take the time to really learn about modern bowling balls.

The perfect scale is just a method of determining possible hook potential. Yes, I do understand that it can be a little misleading, but it's like every other statistic, like ERA/WHIP in baseball, or free point throws made in basketball. It's all just a number. But we can use that number to get a better idea of what kind of ball would be best for us. Again, I'm just a kid, so this perfect scale is just a scale for me to use until I can better understand the make of cores and all of that good stuff with the modern day bowling ball.

[RobLV1]

The perfect scale is just a method of determining possible hook potential. Yes, I do understand that it can be a little misleading, but it's like every other statistic, like ERA/WHIP in baseball, or free point throws made in basketball. It's all just a number. But we can use that number to get a better idea of what kind of ball would be best for us. Again, I'm just a kid, so this perfect scale is just a scale for me to use until I can better understand the make of cores and all of that good stuff with the modern day bowling ball.

I understand that you are just learning, but your statement that the perfect scale is just a method for determining possible hook potential tells me that you are missing the whole concept of angle of change of direction vs. how soon a ball begins to hook. Once you can accept that, you will see that the only thing that really determines hook potential is the release of the bowler. Once you understand that, then you will see that every ball has the same amount of hook potential with the differences being when the ball begins to hook. You might want to check out my website, www.modern-bowling.com. There are several articles in the Bowling Ball section that may help you to better understand.

[NewToBowling]

Ok someone explain this to me then on hook potential or when a ball begins to hook.

Same lane, same oil, same bowler, same release. Same starting position, same target, etc.

Trying to hit the 7 pin.

Using a Cyclone vs Bad Intentions. Bad Intentions is going to hook sooner and probably end up in the gutter if the Cyclone ball hit the 7 pin (same position, same target)

Guess just a question of semantics on hook potential vs hooking early/late. One would say Bad Intentions has a higher hook potential thus a higher perfect scale???

[Amyers]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but both balls will hook pretty much the same amount of boards on the same condition if everything is equal the bad intentions is no more likely to end up in the gutter than the cyclone. Now what could easily happen is if you throw the bad intentions down the first arrow (no oil) it burns up and you don't get the change of direction you are looking for and miss or if you throw the cyclone down the middle (heavier oil) it skids and never moves and you miss. The only real difference here is flare potential the BI should flare more than a cyclone thus giving it the opportunity to hook more but Rob has stated that he doesn't believe flare potential matters to average bowlers (I'm not disagreeing I think I agree from what I see just not sure why). What I would like to know is when it starts to matter? Is it a certain rev rate that it takes to start to see a difference or is it just such a small difference it masked by the miss area of the average bowler?

I'm really thinking the entire idea of hook potential is a misnomer. What really determines hook potential is the bowlers rev rate, ball speed, axis tilt, axis rotation, lane conditions, and line played. You can buy the most aggressive ball on the market if you don't have much turn on the ball it isn't going to hook. You have to many revs vs. your ball speed your going to struggle keeping even the mildest reactive on the lanes. See Aslan little turn aggressive ball still doesn't hook much. See Mike White super aggressive revs struggles to use reactive balls.

[RobLV1]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but both balls will hook pretty much the same amount of boards on the same condition if everything is equal the bad intentions is no more likely to end up in the gutter than the cyclone. Now what could easily happen is if you throw the bad intentions down the first arrow (no oil) it burns up and you don't get the change of direction you are looking for and miss or if you throw the cyclone down the middle (heavier oil) it skids and never moves and you miss. The only real difference here is flare potential the BI should flare more than a cyclone thus giving it the opportunity to hook more but Rob has stated that he doesn't believe flare potential matters to average bowlers (I'm not disagreeing I think I agree from what I see just not sure why). What I would like to know is when it starts to matter? Is it a certain rev rate that it takes to start to see a difference or is it just such a small difference it masked by the miss area of the average bowler?

I'm really thinking the entire idea of hook potential is a misnomer. What really determines hook potential is the bowlers rev rate, ball speed, axis tilt, axis rotation, lane conditions, and line played. You can buy the most aggressive ball on the market if you don't have much turn on the ball it isn't going to hook. You have to many revs vs. your ball speed your going to struggle keeping even the mildest reactive on the lanes. See Aslan little turn aggressive ball still doesn't hook much. See Mike White super aggressive revs struggles to use reactive balls.

Great discussion! So much of what we believe about bowling balls comes from the pre-modern era, and is no longer true. Let's look at the concept that more flare equates to more hook. Before the eighties and Mark Roth turning the bejesus out of the ball, the best bowlers had the tightest tracks. The really great bowlers of the sixties and early seventies had an oil track that was about as wide as a pencil. When Roth started turning the ball, we started to see the flare rings that are now commonplace with modern bowling balls. Back then, bowlers figured out that more flare equated to more fresh ball surface coming into contact with the lane with the result being more friction. Now, after the introduction of modern balls with cores, every ball flares to some degree. Think about this: if there is 1/4" between the flare rings, or 1/2" between the flare rings, or 1" between the flare rings, is there more ball surface coming into contact with the lane? The only difference is the length of the bow-tie which is so small as to be irrelevant in the discussion. The real reason that the amount of flare is important is not that more flare hooks more, but that more flare indicates a faster transition of the axis from the PAP of the bowler to the PSA of the bowling ball. In other words, the amount of flare is important in determining the shape of the reaction, not how much the ball hooks.

[Ishkabibble]

So all balls have the same hook potential just a difference of how quickly they read the lanes?
Let’s assume both balls have the same core and drilled the same just 2 different cover stocks.
Ball A goes over the arrows at board 20 out to board 8 starts to break at 40 feet and goes back to the pocket at 17.5.
Ball B using the same target having a less aggressive cover stock and slides more going past ball A’s break point and goes 43 feet before it starts to break and misses the pocket. If the pins were back 3 feet further would it hit the pocket? Being as the ball is sliding longer it will travel out to the 7 or even 6 board. Would it need maybe 4 extra feet to recover and hit pocket? Or is the ball never going to get there?