HELP! Can't stop sucking!

[bobforsaken]

Let me start off by saying I apologize for my frustrated tone, and I really do appreciate those who try to help a total stranger. Thank you for the suggestion ScottyMoney...

AMeyers, thank you for the expanded explanation. Regarding the Hy-road and Marvel-S.. The Marvel-S at 500 gives me a good reaction as I said in the original post.
"The best success I've been able to have is putting 500 grit surface on my Marvel S.. Playing around 3rd arrow for the target out to about 8 or 9... The only problem is once that goes away it puts me in a bad spot where I'm going through the face the rest of the night with every other ball I try. "


As for the Hy-Road, the purpose was never to produce more midlane on these types of conditions. It was to produce a more gradual hook (on less soaked conditions), via drilling, then I have with my other balls that are all low RG balls with small VAL angles. That is 100% my fault for not being clear on its purpose. My only reason for mentioning it was in an attempt to give you a very basic rundown of the kinds of balls I have. Ie.. Low RG with short Val angles and a higher RG Ball (hy-road) with a larger VAL angle drilling.

[Amyers]

Let me start off by saying I apologize for my frustrated tone, and I really do appreciate those who try to help a total stranger. Thank you for the suggestion ScottyMoney...

AMeyers, thank you for the expanded explanation. Regarding the Hy-road and Marvel-S.. The Marvel-S at 500 gives me a good reaction as I said in the original post.
"The best success I've been able to have is putting 500 grit surface on my Marvel S.. Playing around 3rd arrow for the target out to about 8 or 9... The only problem is once that goes away it puts me in a bad spot where I'm going through the face the rest of the night with every other ball I try. "


As for the Hy-Road, the purpose was never to produce more midlane on these types of conditions. It was to produce a more gradual hook (on less soaked conditions), via drilling, then I have with my other balls that are all low RG balls with small VAL angles. That is 100% my fault for not being clear on its purpose. My only reason for mentioning it was in an attempt to give you a very basic rundown of the kinds of balls I have. Ie.. Low RG with short Val angles and a higher RG Ball (hy-road) with a larger VAL angle drilling.

No problem at all Bob and believe me I understand how frustrating it can be to have a problem and not be able to find a solution. I think the thing that make me mention it is the fact that the Marvel-s at 500 is working for you. The marvel-s is a somewhat low Rg ball (2.48), with a strong cover (NRG Solid), that you've added a lot of surface too (factory 3000-you 500), combined with a low val angle drilling which decreases th rg even more and increases the asymmetry and the differential. All combined unless your severly speed dominate the ball should be hooking at your feet and burning up at the arrows.

As far as the Hyroad I think I understand what you were thinking now but as you mentioned the balls not giving you what you expected on the fresh conditions. You did increase the Val angle with the drilling with it but you selected a ball with a much higher rg than the others. As you increase the rg the ball goes longer and may cover less boards but the backend reaction gets larger. Going with a larger Val angle actually probably enhanced that even more as that increased the Rg farther and decreased the differential. Decreasing the differential in some ways people think it causes the ball to hook less I don't think that's really the case for most average bowlers but what it does do is lengthen the hook phase so it may not turn quite as sharply but it actually causes the ball to hook longer increasing the backend reaction especially in that .4 to .45 area at least that's how it works for me.I do believe you purchased something that will give you a different look but if you wanted it to be more gradual of a hook this probably wasn't the ball for you.

It might be interesting if you can find a different alley to bowl in on fresh conditions (maybe sub for someone on a league) or if they have a night they put a different pattern down does the problem still happen? if it does that's a good sign its a problem with you and not with an over/under reaction. If it doesn't happen then you can be more certin it's a ball/pattern problem.

I don't know if any of this helps but maybe at least gives you something else to think about and explains a little of what your seeing. Something else that might help if it's a ball/pattern matchup problem you might consider going to something more along the lines of the new Storm Match or if you open to different brands a Brunswick Soul to start with hopefully would let you start at least a little farther right and then move to the marvel-s latter in the match when you have to make that move inside. I know for myself on those nights I have to start at the 3rd arrow I feel like I don't have anywhere to go.

[bobforsaken]

It might be interesting if you can find a different alley to bowl in on fresh conditions (maybe sub for someone on a league) or if they have a night they put a different pattern down does the problem still happen? if it does that's a good sign its a problem with you and not with an over/under reaction. If it doesn't happen then you can be more certin it's a ball/pattern problem.

I don't tend to have these issues anywhere else. Other places hook more, but it allows me to move deeper and still get a midlane read. This has been a season long struggle at this house since they changed the oil machine/pattern... This house has always had a reputation for being a 10 pin house without a lot of friction (very hard lane surface). Even still, I can play around 2nd arrow on the fresh conditions and it hooks plenty. I had been using Polished IQ Tour Fusion/ Optimus/ Marvel Pearl and just couldn't keep them off the head pin. (which was really why I had gotten the Hyroad) The marvel S at 3000 was too much for playing in this area, but if I moved deeper, it pushed too far toward the gutter and never made it back (got squirty). That is why I changed it to 500 Grit (which is the first time I had even attempted a grit that low) and it was great on the Fresh around 3rd arrow. The other night when I really struggled with O/U, I didn't have anything else to move to. I"m going to try the Fusion at 2000 as a step down from the Marvel S and maybe find a nice place to start between 2nd and 3rd arrow so I have someplace to go after the first game. (maybe moving to the Marvel-S). Or start with the Hy-Road (3000) at around 2nd arrow in hopes it will stay to the right of the headpin better than my Optimus/Marvel Pearl... or at least leave me with less splits when I get a touch slow with my speed.

[Amyers]

I don't tend to have these issues anywhere else. Other places hook more, but it allows me to move deeper and still get a midlane read. This has been a season long struggle at this house since they changed the oil machine/pattern... This house has always had a reputation for being a 10 pin house without a lot of friction (very hard lane surface). Even still, I can play around 2nd arrow on the fresh conditions and it hooks plenty. I had been using Polished IQ Tour Fusion/ Optimus/ Marvel Pearl and just couldn't keep them off the head pin. (which was really why I had gotten the Hyroad) The marvel S at 3000 was too much for playing in this area, but if I moved deeper, it pushed too far toward the gutter and never made it back (got squirty). That is why I changed it to 500 Grit (which is the first time I had even attempted a grit that low) and it was great on the Fresh around 3rd arrow. The other night when I really struggled with O/U, I didn't have anything else to move to. I"m going to try the Fusion at 2000 as a step down from the Marvel S and maybe find a nice place to start between 2nd and 3rd arrow so I have someplace to go after the first game. (maybe moving to the Marvel-S). Or start with the Hy-Road (3000) at around 2nd arrow in hopes it will stay to the right of the headpin better than my Optimus/Marvel Pearl... or at least leave me with less splits when I get a touch slow with my speed.

Makes more sense now to me. Glad to hear that it's primarily at this alley. Adjusting the surface on the fusion sounds like a good idea. If you can I would suggest maybe trying to get to 1k or 2k on the surface on the Marvel-S throwing that down the 3rd arrow has got to be blowing the pattern up for your teammates if any of them play inside at all. Let us know how it works for you.

[bobforsaken]

Makes more sense now to me. Glad to hear that it's primarily at this alley. Adjusting the surface on the fusion sounds like a good idea. If you can I would suggest maybe trying to get to 1k or 2k on the surface on the Marvel-S throwing that down the 3rd arrow has got to be blowing the pattern up for your teammates if any of them play inside at all. Let us know how it works for you.

Yeah.. Probably a good idea about the Surface. We had a high Rev Sub that was to the left of me and scored sub 150 the last two games (as did I)... He's a 190ish bowler as WAS I before this season.. I'm at 180 after last week's horrible series..

Thanks again

[Aslan]

but its not translating on league night. I practice a lot, but only bowl in league once a week. The problem is all of my practice is on chewed up lanes and I usually do pretty well. When I get to League and they lay down the fresh oil I can't seem to find any room. I have pretty slow ball speed and probably an average rev rate at this time. Depending on the conditions in practice I can play anywhere from standing 20 to 30 and playing a breakpoint of 5 to 10. I can usually find a good groove and I do ok.

Yup. Been there.


I bowl in a $20 tournament most Saturdays...solely because I want to practice on league conditions.

One thing you might want to consider is maybe getting the balls back to OOB the surface and try playing the track. One thing that is a very hard concept to grasp...for all levels of bowler...is that sometimes a ball doesn't come back because your angle is wrong (you're too deep for your speed/rev rate)...and sometimes it doesn't come back because it just loses energy.

A 500 abralon, non-polished surface...the ball might be just losing too much energy as it grabs too early. It'll look like its not enough ball...not enough hand...not enough surface....when in fact it could be the opposite. And the difference...very difficult to see...even for pros.

My last arsenal I kept missing right....and just kept sanding those balls....hoping if I got them rough enough...they'd find the pocket. But, they never did. Come to find out...the reason my Slingshot was working so well and my other balls weren't....was because I didn't sand the Slingshot...so despite it being a very weak ball...it actually had some energy by the time it went into the hook phase.

Just a suggestion...a video would probably be best to get something more useful.

[bobforsaken]

A 500 abralon, non-polished surface...the ball might be just losing too much energy as it grabs too early. It'll look like its not enough ball...not enough hand...not enough surface....when in fact it could be the opposite. And the difference...very difficult to see...even for pros.
.

It is very hard to see when a ball is burning up.. it does look like its just not hooking. But not hooking enough isn't the issue, at least not until I get very steep with my angles. I did have most of my equipment at OOB until recently. The Marvel-S at 500 was done because I was stuck in a position where all my balls would go brooklyn in the track area (unless I played a steep angle in the track which pushed to the gutter).. And if I moved into the oil significantly I hit this oil slick that the balls would get squirty and uncontrollable. I went right from 3000 to 500 on the marvel-S and that allowed me to settle in around 3rd arrow for a target and do pretty well. Unfortunately, I tore up the middle of the pattern and paid for it later in squad. I'm going to try 1000 on my Marvel-s, 2000 on my fusion, and 3000 on my hy road and hopefully one of those balls will allow me to play further right (than 3rd arrow) without going through the face all night. I'd love to be able to play the track area without feeling I have to throw the ball faster to keep it off the nose... But my least aggressive ball is far too weak of a cover stock for the fresh anyway. (tropical breeze with weak drilling) and the rest seem to be too much ball. (Optimus, Fusion, Marvel Pearl, Marvel S) Hy-Road with the right surface may still be an option.. but I haven't been able to figure out what that surface is because I have to wait a week before tests and only get about 3 practice balls before league starts... and once the lights go on I'm usually "so close" that I don't try any bold changes so I learn very little about how these surfaces may play in different areas.

[Amyers]

It is very hard to see when a ball is burning up.. it does look like its just not hooking. But not hooking enough isn't the issue, at least not until I get very steep with my angles. I did have most of my equipment at OOB until recently. The Marvel-S at 500 was done because I was stuck in a position where all my balls would go brooklyn in the track area (unless I played a steep angle in the track which pushed to the gutter).. And if I moved into the oil significantly I hit this oil slick that the balls would get squirty and uncontrollable. I went right from 3000 to 500 on the marvel-S and that allowed me to settle in around 3rd arrow for a target and do pretty well. Unfortunately, I tore up the middle of the pattern and paid for it later in squad. I'm going to try 1000 on my Marvel-s, 2000 on my fusion, and 3000 on my hy road and hopefully one of those balls will allow me to play further right without going through the face all night. I'd love to be able to play the track area without feeling I have to throw the ball faster to keep it off the nose... But my least aggressive ball is far too weak of a cover stock for the fresh anyway. (tropical breeze with weak drilling) and the rest seem to be too much ball. (Optimus, Fusion, Marvel Pearl, Marvel S) Hy-Road with the right surface may still be an option.. but I haven't been able to figure out what that surface is because I have to wait a week before tests and only get about 3 practice balls before league starts... and once the lights go on I'm usually "so close" that I don't try any bold changes so I learn very little about how these surfaces may play in different areas.

I can understand that it's hard to judge when you can't replicate the conditions during practice. I cant guess how many times I think I've figured something out and then try to replicate on the freshly oiled lanes and it just doesn't work. Let us know how your surface changes work there. I hope it leads to some success for you.

[Mike White]

Yup. Been there.


I bowl in a $20 tournament most Saturdays...solely because I want to practice on league conditions.

One thing you might want to consider is maybe getting the balls back to OOB the surface and try playing the track. One thing that is a very hard concept to grasp...for all levels of bowler...is that sometimes a ball doesn't come back because your angle is wrong (you're too deep for your speed/rev rate)...and sometimes it doesn't come back because it just loses energy.

A 500 abralon, non-polished surface...the ball might be just losing too much energy as it grabs too early. It'll look like its not enough ball...not enough hand...not enough surface....when in fact it could be the opposite. And the difference...very difficult to see...even for pros.

My last arsenal I kept missing right....and just kept sanding those balls....hoping if I got them rough enough...they'd find the pocket. But, they never did. Come to find out...the reason my Slingshot was working so well and my other balls weren't....was because I didn't sand the Slingshot...so despite it being a very weak ball...it actually had some energy by the time it went into the hook phase.

Just a suggestion...a video would probably be best to get something more useful.

If you have a multi-color ball, or high contrast color inserts, the difference between a ball rolling too early vs a ball never rolling is quite easy to see.

[Aslan]

If you have a multi-color ball, or high contrast color inserts, the difference between a ball rolling too early vs a ball never rolling is quite easy to see.

If it's a big difference, yes. If it's still hitting the pocket...and leaving 5-7s, flat 7s, or flat 10s...it's not as noticeable...especially to those of us that are relatively new.

If you analyze the last two shots of this video (at about 34 minutes into the 36 minute video)...it seems like the first (more polished) ball skidded a bit too long...but still came back to the pocket...just probably needed to hook a tiny bit sooner. If I look at the last shot (the more sanded version)...it seems like (in slow motion), you CAN see that it hooked sooner and looks like it kinda rolled out before hitting (barely) the pocket.



I may be wrong...like I said...it's hard to tell when not driving through the pocket with carry...whether the ball is going to long versus rolling out. It's a little easier to see in slow motion...but still.

And yes, I know it's difficult to use this example given my lower rev, more speed dominant release...and this video will seem familiar to MWhite (he stars in it and I think won a best supporting actor award for it...can't remember)...but it seems like if you just focus on the last two slow motion shots (don't watch the whole thing...other than me being in better shape...it's not too entertaining)...I think you see a ball that skids too far....barely makes it back to the pocket...then in shot #2...you see a ball hooking 3-5ft sooner....and already in the roll phase well before it hits the pocket.