HELP! Can't stop sucking!

[Mike White]

If it's a big difference, yes. If it's still hitting the pocket...and leaving 5-7s, flat 7s, or flat 10s...it's not as noticeable...especially to those of us that are relatively new.

You can't tell by examine just the way the pins fall.

You need to watch how the ball travels down the lane.



Watch the rotation of the ball.

The low rev player loses axis rotation early, and the ball rolls end over end towards the pins.

As the player increases rev rate, the loss of axis rotation slower allowing the ball to generate more right to left momentum.

Finally look at the 20+ MPH, 625 rev example.

Here the ball maintains axis rotation past the pins, and while the Radical people seem to be impressed with the messengers, watch how bad the ball deflects.

The ball has plenty of right to left momentum (as shown by the amount of energy transferred into the head pin), it still has much more linear momentum down the lane. The combination of light pocket, and a weak mix of momentums causes the ball to deflect significantly.

The ball exits the pin deck on top of, or to the right of the 9 pin spot.

[NewToBowling]

Mike, you sound like a wealth of knowledge. Would love to have you watch me bowl and show me all these little details that you spot.

[Aslan]

Mike-

You did a great job explaining that...but it didn't really answer the question or relate to what I was saying to the OP about surface.

Yes, you are right...you can tell a LOT, by where the ball exits the pin deck. Suzie Minshew wrote a good article on this subject on BTM. BUT...that last shot with the crazy high rev rate and speed...yes, it obviously hit light and didn't drive through the pins. The first shot at the lower speed and rev rate exited the pin deck ideally between the 8 and 9.

I would guess, that in the last example...that ball obviously didn't "roll out"...as you said, it was still in the hook phase when it hit the pocket. That might be an example of a ball that is skidding a bit too far before transitioning or slowing down. But what we didn't see (because it's a ball manufacturer's video) is a bowler where the same ball has too much surface applied and rolls out. The first person you could kinda see what it looks like...but those shots all still struck.

The warning/advice I was giving the OP...is just that if you're sanding your balls down...especially < 1000 abralon...you need a ton of oil and a long pattern...or that ball is going to hook much sooner than you want. The tricky thing to see is....you'd expect it to hook sooner and that sooner = more...thus it would hit Brooklyn. But what I noticed when doing a lot of surfacing in my last arsenal is that these sanded balls would hit light...giving you the impression that you need MORE sanding...MORE surface...or MORE ball...when the opposite is true.

So, hypothetical example, if you throw a Polished Storm Rocket...and you keep hitting light or missing a little right...you figure (and are probably right)...that you need a stronger ball or more surface. So you go in your bag and grab a Brunswick Nirvanna that you've sanded down to 500 abralon and you throw it up the same line. It also misses right and hits light...same leaves as the Rocket. But how can that be? The ball strength alone should give it more downlane movement...but it doesn't.

That's because the Rocket...isn't hooking SOON enough....and the Nirvanna is SO strong and has SO much surface...that it's rolling out far too early. If you just go by what is left standing...you'd come to the conclusion your speed is too high and rev rate too low...because you can't get a ball to turn the corner. Maybe you slow your shot down...try to increase your axis tilt and rotation, and maybe move further outside to get more in the dry.

Well, that may allow the Rocket to start striking...but the Nirvanna is going to hit even lighter...because it's losing energy even sooner the more right you move.

I just had this problem with my Rotogrip Asylum. It had the OOB hybrid cover...and an RG of 2.50. I could NOT get this ball to work. I throw up the outside or track...it hits light...like a wet noodle. I move inside...it can't get back to the pocket...still hits light. Finally I had a pro watch me throw it...and they saw what I couldn't see...that the Asylum WAS hooking...but way, way too soon. On a THS, there just wasn't enough oil to keep it from hooking too soon. And when I moved inside...the ball just wasn't strong enough at my higher speed and lower rev rate to make a strong move to the pocket.

That is what I fear is happeing with bobfs. He's put SO much surface on his arsenal...that they are not going to make it to the pocket with energy at his speed and rev rate. And that's why I argue with Amyers quite a bit about surface changes. It's not that Amyers is wrong...surface IS the most important factor in a ball's movement. BUT...due to that importance...you can really mess up a ball by trying to surface it to get it to do...what (at your given speed and rev rate) the ball simply is not designed to do.

I keep polishing my Dark Encounter because it wants to hook too soon with a 2.50 RG...and now that my speed is 14.9-16.9...I can't get it to retain it's energy. So I polish it...try to give it a little more length. The Lethal Revolver has a much higher RG (2.574)...but it is a solid...it's a Brunswick...and it wants to start hooking too early (at this speed) for a THS. When I threw it at 17.9-21.0...it was the best ball I've ever thrown...at that speed...with that RG...the Brunswick solid cover started hooking at just the right spot. These are the kind've things that relatively new bowlers (myself included) struggle with as we try to learn more and more about ball specs. Like others have said in other posts...a lot of these specs work together...a lot of them work against one another...and it becomes almost an "equation of formula" to get a given ball with it's entirety of specs...to match a given speed/rev rate...on a THS.

One thing I struggle with regarding the above issues...is how to throw a heavily surfaced ball using an inside line on a THS. It seems that there's really very little room for error...because too much hand and too slow a speed...you hit weak. Not enough hand and a bit too much mustard on the shot...you miss right. I think, and maybe I'm wrong...we're all just guessing to try and assist bobfs...that he may be having a similar dilemma. I think surface hurts new bowlers more than it helps...in my opinion...because it really kills the ball's ability to retain energy on a THS. I wasted 1.5 seasons to come to that realization.

[bobforsaken]

That is what I fear is happeing with bobfs. He's put SO much surface on his arsenal...that they are not going to make it to the pocket with energy at his speed and rev rate. And that's why I argue with Amyers quite a bit about surface changes. It's not that Amyers is wrong...surface IS the most important factor in a ball's movement. BUT...due to that importance...you can really mess up a ball by trying to surface it to get it to do...what (at your given speed and rev rate) the ball simply is not designed to do.



One thing I struggle with regarding the above issues...is how to throw a heavily surfaced ball using an inside line on a THS. It seems that there's really very little room for error...because too much hand and too slow a speed...you hit weak. Not enough hand and a bit too much mustard on the shot...you miss right. I think, and maybe I'm wrong...we're all just guessing to try and assist bobfs...that he may be having a similar dilemma. I think surface hurts new bowlers more than it helps...in my opinion...because it really kills the ball's ability to retain energy on a THS. I wasted 1.5 seasons to come to that realization.

Most of my arsenal has been polished and with this particular house shot, with the amount of oil in the middle I was having success with the 500 Grit Marvel S because it was reading the midlane bleeding off some energy on the Dry. My Low RG Polished stuff and My 3000 Grit hyroad was pushing almost all the way to the gutter as I moved inside, never reading the midlane, and then come screaming off the dry and cut through the nose.... So again, that 500 grit was the exception because it was working.. but chewed up the pattern so fast I ran out of room.

Unfortunately the pattern was not behaving in this squirty way during my league night so I couldn't test some fixes (and I didn't really bowl well again.. ) .. but they happened to have a tournament where they put down Kegel Easy street today (Sunday). Even though it wasn't squirty, I was flying off the back ends and having a tough time at first staying to the right of the head pin. I started playing around with index finger position, and got a chance to practice staying up the back of the ball. I had Polish on my Hy-Road and was playing fairly deep.. (standing on 30 throwing to about 16) but I kept my hand up the back as much as possible (index finger was closed almost all the way to my middle finger) and I bowled a 267.

It felt like an extreme amount of AOR reduction, especially for playing deep like I was.. but it was a very nice controllable reaction... Many times I feel like I have to flirt with the gutter to keep the ball on the right of the headpin... I was able to play a breakpoint of about 8 and had some miss room left and right. I'm hoping this practice with reducing my AOR will pay dividends next league night.

As a side note.. My first 3 games of practice today I decided to stand at a particular spot.. target a specific board and use speed and finger adjustments only. First game I stood on 25 (to 13).. Next game was 30(to 16).. next game was 20 (to 9). I usually stay away from speed and release adjustments because "I'm not good at them" but it was really cool to experiment and see how I could make a particular line work reasonably well instead of always switching balls and moving my feet left or right. Its not a great way to shoot honor scores but I was surprised how much better I got at a particular adjustment after sticking with it the whole game.

[Mike White]

Mike-

You did a great job explaining that...but it didn't really answer the question or relate to what I was saying to the OP about surface.

Yes, you are right...you can tell a LOT, by where the ball exits the pin deck. Suzie Minshew wrote a good article on this subject on BTM. BUT...that last shot with the crazy high rev rate and speed...yes, it obviously hit light and didn't drive through the pins. The first shot at the lower speed and rev rate exited the pin deck ideally between the 8 and 9.

I would guess, that in the last example...that ball obviously didn't "roll out"...as you said, it was still in the hook phase when it hit the pocket. That might be an example of a ball that is skidding a bit too far before transitioning or slowing down. But what we didn't see (because it's a ball manufacturer's video) is a bowler where the same ball has too much surface applied and rolls out. The first person you could kinda see what it looks like...but those shots all still struck.

There is so much in that video that shows the "myths" you've been taught are wrong.

Yes, the first sim bowler did have the ball roll out, and according to the myth, that should cause some kine of back row pin left.

But clearly it didn't happen. The reason it strikes is where on the head pin the ball contacts.

If the path of the ball goes thru the center of the pin, there is no deflection.

As the path is offset from the center of the ball (hitting lighter), the deflection increases up to a point, then decreases back to zero deflection just as the ball completely misses the pin.

Too much deflection and too little deflection are both bad.

As the ball increases momentum (in a right to left direction) the deflection is decreased.

The first sim bowler almost left a weak 10 pin on the last shot shown, and if you compare it to previous shots, you will see the ball hit much lighter on the head pin.

By watching the color pattern on the ball (not where it exited the pin deck) you can tell if the ball skidded into the pins still having axis rotation (needing more surface) or rolled early, end over end (needing less surface)

This so called energy you think your ball is losing is fiction.

The reality is, you never put into the ball enough "energy" in the form of revs for the ball achieve right to left momentum.

The further you move inside and throw out, the more left to right momentum the ball starts out with, which in turn required more revs to overcome.

Your best chance is by roughing up the ball, throwing it fast, and tugging the ball up against the wall of oil.

The ball speed along with a bit of right to left from the arm swing gives you about the best right to left momentum you can expect to achieve.

The rough surface will give the ball a chance to roll before hitting the pins, and finally the wall of oil will help you keep from crossing over the head pin.

If you don't want to be limited by those options, you're going to have to work on improving the release to create back end motion..

[billf]

Slow speed and medium rev rate with small VAL angles. Why? Increase the VAL angle will allow the ball to transition slower allowing it to not over react to wet-dry conditions.
Another option albeit one that goes against conventional wisdom, is to move feet and target way right and let the natural outside friction of a THS burn off the excess axis rotation. Playing from 6 to a breakpoint around 2 with maybe your Crux would give you a completely different look.

I have a question about your ball track. Were your balls drilled off your PAP?

[bobforsaken]

Slow speed and medium rev rate with small VAL angles. Why? Increase the VAL angle will allow the ball to transition slower allowing it to not over react to wet-dry conditions.
Another option albeit one that goes against conventional wisdom, is to move feet and target way right and let the natural outside friction of a THS burn off the excess axis rotation. Playing from 6 to a breakpoint around 2 with maybe your Crux would give you a completely different look.

I have a question about your ball track. Were your balls drilled off your PAP?

I've been bowling for less than 2 years... When I started I had a very low rev rate and still a slow speed. I used to have a larger amount of axis tilt as well. I recently started dropping my shoulder and dramatically changed my tilt closer to 0 degrees.. My Pap is about 6.25 over and 1 up. (Used to be 5.75 over and 1 up)... so you can imagine I'm tracking right along the fingers and thumb hole. When my new balls were drilled about 2 years ago they were low RG, aggressive coverstocks (R2S Hybrid, R2X Pearl on the IQ Fusion and Optimus), and drilled with medium Drilling angles and small Vals to help me face up to the pocket. Other balls I've added via Ebay and took whatever drilling they had.. just changing the thumb hole for fit. These are my Marvel Pearl and Marvel S... They just happen to be Small to Medium Val Angles.

I wanted to try something with a larger VAL angle and since I didn't really have anything High RG (except for a Tropical Breeze I added a year ago) I went with a Hy-Road.

So that is the "Why".

[bobforsaken]

A bit of an update. I haven't run into that extreme wet/dry condition... maybe weather related since the change of the seasons..
At any rate the past two weeks I've concentrated on getting more ball speed. I've moved back on the approach which really forces me to drive into my slide just to get to the foul line. This smoothed out the jumpy back ends for me considerably and although I still threw the splits when I got a little slow, I was striking a lot more and didn't have to push all the way to the gutter to keep the ball off the nose.

Last night, I had my best series of the the year. May or may not be coincidence but I dusted off my old Ebonite Cyclone and it saved my first game. (I had 3 opens in a row due to splits before switching and taking it off the sheet with a 5 bagger)... Then gave me a 244 in game 2 (my fault for missing a 10 pin in the 10th). The reaction allowed me to stay more relaxed and not worry so much about a huge split if I got a touch slow. For now, its gonna stay in my bag...