Handicap limit, how common is this type of rule

[fordman1]

I reread my post and realized it wasn't complete. If you use the difference between teams to figure H\C it would depend on who you bowl what you high series is.

[bowl1820]

Most leagues pay high team series and game with H\C at the end of the season. When you use the difference between teams it isn't fair. You need a number higher than the highest team average.

In most discussions I've seen about the use of the team difference system for handicap, it's been considered fair.

I believe mainly because since it doesn't use a scratch base, a team doesn't gain an advantage by averaging over the scratch base like they would using the standard hdcp system (which is why you need to set a base number higher than the highest team average in the standard hdcp system) .

The move to the use of the team difference system here AFAIK, was basically started by lower ave. teams who felt they were losing to very high average teams a lot. The change has been fairly well received by everyone to my knowledge.

The main thing I see with the system is, it makes games closer if there's a big difference in team averages.

Here's a example using a actual night my team bowled.

This league uses a 90% of 230 handicap
My team averages: 136-129-183-185 total 633 team average

The other team averages: 182-154-209-248 total 793 team average

We lost all points using the individual system, if we had used team difference system we would have won 1 game, lost the first by only 1 pin and lost the 3rd by 68 pins instead of by 101 pins and we would have lost total by only 66 pins instead of 165 pins

on nights we bowled a team closer to us in average, it didn't really make much of a difference.

I reread my post and realized it wasn't complete. If you use the difference between teams to figure H\C it would depend on who you bowl what you(R) high series is.

Yes.

[fordman1]

Sorry your math don't make sense. They would not be off that much if at all. Both are 90% so the difference should be the same just different numbers.

[bowl1820]

Sorry your math don't make sense. They would not be off that much if at all. Both are 90% so the difference should be the same just different numbers.

What doesnt make sense?

The calculations are correct for both the handicap systems used. While both use 90%, they are based on something different.

In the case shown Both handicap systems produced different results, for what games were won and lost and by how much.

The 90% of team difference effectively gave the lower ave team more handicap, while it might not be much different (in this case the lower ave team got 33 more pins hdcp than they would have had). It was obviously enough to affect points won and lost.

[J Anderson]

In most discussions I've seen about the use of the team difference system for handicap, it's been considered fair.

I believe mainly because since it doesn't use a scratch base, a team doesn't gain an advantage by averaging over the scratch base like they would using the standard hdcp system (which is why you need to set a base number higher than the highest team average in the standard hdcp system) .

The move to the use of the team difference system here AFAIK, was basically started by lower ave. teams who felt they were losing to very high average teams a lot. The change has been fairly well received by everyone to my knowledge.

The main thing I see with the system is, it makes games closer if there's a big difference in team averages.

Here's a example using a actual night my team bowled.

This league uses a 90% of 230 handicap
My team averages: 136-129-183-185 total 633 team average

The other team averages: 182-154-209-248 total 793 team average

We lost all points using the individual system, if we had used team difference system we would have won 1 game, lost the first by only 1 pin and lost the 3rd by 68 pins instead of by 101 pins and we would have lost total by only 66 pins instead of 165 pins

on nights we bowled a team closer to us in average, it didn't really make much of a difference.





Yes.

Please recheck your math. If I take the sum of your teams averages and subtract from 920 I get 287, 90% of 287 is 258. Doing the same for the other team gives a handicap of 114. The other team is spotting you 144 pins. The difference between your figures and mine is that you are adding individual handicaps which are rounded down to the next whole number.

When I take your team average and subtract from the other teams average1 get a difference of 160 and a handicap of 144 for your team.

p.s. Your league needs to raise the basis to 250 0r stop adding individual handicaps to get the team handicap.

[fordman1]

160 X 90% = 144 that is where the math error is. Also if you use team h\c you could use 900 or 1000 as a ceiling. All good bowling programs work great for this and after the initial investment they can be upgraded every year for $29.

[bowl1820]

Please recheck your math. If I take the sum of your teams averages and subtract from 920 I get 287, 90% of 287 is 258. Doing the same for the other team gives a handicap of 114. The other team is spotting you 144 pins. The difference between your figures and mine is that you are adding individual handicaps which are rounded down to the next whole number.

Taking the team averages and subtracting them from 920 was not the system that was used.

Adding individual handicaps to get the team handicaps in this case was what the league used (at the time). (and is the method here and most places I've seen generally used)

The individual handicaps were not rounded down, the fraction were dropped (as per USBC rule).

When I take your team average and subtract from the other teams average1 get a difference of 160 and a handicap of 144 for your team.

Yes, I see I forgot to figure in the 90% and with that correction used in that example. The 2nd game game would be a loss.

But other times when different games have been compared, the use of team difference did make a difference in the out come when those games were close using the other system.

Because using team difference tended to make the scores closer together.

p.s. Your league needs to raise the basis to 250 0r stop adding individual handicaps to get the team handicap.

This league usually did have the base figure higher than the highest average at the start of the league. After the time when this example was made, we had gone to the Team difference system.

The thing about the Team Difference system is, it's essentially using a variable base number. That's always equal to the higher average teams average.

In the other systems it's recommend you set a base number that's equal to or higher than the highest average (Individual or Team). This happens at the beginning of the league when you make the rules and once that base number is set it doesn't change.

But as the league progress's, individual or team averages can rise above that base number (Unless it's set to a ridiculously high number, like the earlier mentioned 300 base) . Thus defeating the purpose of setting the base number above what was then thought to be the highest average.

Team difference handicap eliminates that possibility.Because the base number is always the the higher ave. teams average at the time you bowl them.

So you never bowl against a team with a average above the handicap base number.

Which is what can happen using the other systems and why they are always trying to raise the handicap base number.

[bowl1820]

160 X 90% = 144 that is where the math error is.

Yes, I see that now. I forgot to figure in the 90% and with that correction used in that example. The 2nd game game would be a loss.

Also if you use team h\c you could use 900 or 1000 as a ceiling. All good bowling programs work great for this and after the initial investment they can be upgraded every year for $29.

Yes, I'm well aware of the bowling programs and how well they work.

[fordman1]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that you didn't know those things. I have been doing this a long time and try my best to keep my leagues strong. Too many leagues have strong experienced teams that go to the meetings and set the rules in their favor. When that happens you lose the bottom of the league every year. After a while you run out of bottom teams and the league folds. You have to give them a chance or they go away. Being fair to the little guys is better than stacking the deck for the highs. The better teams will find a way to win because they know how. Lower teams don't know how.

[bowl1820]

A add-on to my earlier comment of:

The thing about the Team Difference system is, it's essentially using a variable base number. That's always equal to the higher average teams average,

In the other systems it's recommend you set a base number that's equal to or higher than the highest average (Individual or Team). This happens at the beginning of the league when you make the rules and once that base number is set it doesn't change.

But as the league progress's, individual or team averages can rise above that base number (Unless it's set to a ridiculously high number, like the earlier mentioned 300 base) . Thus defeating the purpose of setting the base number above what was then thought to be the highest average.

Team difference handicap eliminates that possibility. Because the base number is always the the higher ave. teams average at the time you bowl them.

So You never bowl against a team with a average above the handicap base number.