2 handed debate thread

[bowl1820]

I don't like the new balls reactive makes everyone have a built in hook.

That's pretty much what has been said about any "new" type ball that's came out.

Before Urethane the new technology was polyester (Plastic) balls. In one of Don Johnson's books he told how they looked at plastic balls back then , like we look resin balls today.

He talked about how they (Plastic balls) snapped into the pocket (which shows how much lane conditions have changed today) and even Glenn Allison made the comment back then that plastic carried more garbage hits than rubber.

[chip82901]

Chipper to be honest I don't give a ship how you throw the ball. But I answered the question asked and to add to it I don't like the new balls reactive makes everyone have a built in hook. It enables bowlers to throw much harder and still get the ball to hook. I also don't like the gutter lofting. Stay on your approach. Bring back the above ground ball returns. I don't like the Pro bowlers on TV getting 30 minutes of practice. And last but not least keep you dirty little A$$ of my Grass. have a nice day!

I'm not a fan of how aggressive all the equipment has gotten tbh. I don't need a ball that will rip all 39 boards off the lane. Nor do I want to gutter cap. Nor do I like the fact that lane conditions tend to lean towards having to use these. I never really had the opportunity to throw old school urethane, on hand oiled lanes, or bowl with above ground returns. But, if I had my choice, I'd rather play straighter. I do own a urethane ball, but I also own some of the more aggressive equipment for when its needed. Hell, I'm not a fan of some LEAGUES getting 15 minutes of practice, although I would like my home center on our 5-man leagues to get more than 7 minutes. But in all honesty, the game is evolving, ball companies keep putting out more and more aggressive equipment, and the lane conditions keep getting catered toward it. It's all a product of the great USBC

[Amyers]

I guess I don't quite understand why conventional bowlers will quit in droves. Why should it matter if someone is bowling 2 handed, one handed traditional, between the legs, lefty, righty, or any style? If everyone just works on there own personal game and works to better themselves, that's what should matter. Again, if people are going to up and quit just because others are bowling 2 handed, that is lending to my acting like a 5 year old comment. I understand that may not be what you would do personally Amyers, but the fact that there are those who would just makes it seem like sore losers.

And I completely understand that some older individuals may not have the ability to switch their throwing style, but that's just the nature of sports. You weren't going to see Peyton Manning become a dual threat QB towards the latter part of his career. It's just the nature of growing older and the human body detiorating.

I guess I just think it is odd to say 2 handed bowling should have been banned back 15 years ago or now. Why discourage anything that has the possibility to grow a sport and attract new members. People saying they would leave due to the new style are just acting like the stubborn old individuals(no disrespect intended) who make the younger generation not want to join in the first place.

Well I'm overacting a bit on you typical mixed league it really won't make much difference but I tend to be in more the high level league and low level tournament crowd. The truth is a very talented two hander can simply blow up a pattern for his benefit pretty easily and in a way that a conventional bowler cannot on a lot of patterns they simply over power it. That's true of modern bowling in general and the two handed style in particular.

Maybe I am just old. I bowled with three 2 handers on my travel league team I bear them no animosity their talents are theirs alone

[chip82901]

Well I'm overacting a bit on you typical mixed league it really won't make much difference but I tend to be in more the high level league and low level tournament crowd. The truth is a very talented two hander can simply blow up a pattern for his benefit pretty easily and in a way that a conventional bowler cannot on a lot of patterns they simply over power it. That's true of modern bowling in general and the two handed style in particular.

Maybe I am just old. I bowled with three 2 handers on my travel league team I bear them no animosity their talents are theirs alone

Anyone with a rev rate will destroy an oil pattern, it has nothing to do with delivery. TBH, most house bowlers will blow up the 10 board more than I will. At that point, its just a bank shot for anyone that can put a little hand in the ball

[J Anderson]

I received an email from the USBC last week it was a survey asking questions about bowling. One question was do you approve of two handed bowlers. Or maybe it was would you ban them. It was a rather long survey and I don't think I saved it.
Sure would like to see the results.
Oh yea ban them was my vote.

The fact that the USBC would put a question about banning two handed bowling is another example of poor leadership. Here you have a technique that you say is legal. You have spent time and money developing coaching materials to help coaches teach two handers to bowl effectively. Now you're going to ask your membership should we ban this technique?

[Aslan]

Just a quick thought, as a one hander myself... they need to advocate for it because lots of people are salty about it when there really shouldn't be a good reason to be.

Well, then it's a "chicken/egg scenario"...because what makes me MOST want to be "salty" about it...is the way 2-handers feel the need to advocate for it at every opportunity.

If it were illegal or banned, as some people want it, where would bowling be today? Honestly, answer that question.

The same place it is. Maybe slightly lower popularity at the junior level...probably less popularity outside the US...but marignal. There just aren't enough 2-handers in the overall pool of US bowlers where someone could claim 2-handed bowling is growing the sport.

More and more people are bowling BECAUSE of the 2-handed style.

That is a completely false statement based in on absolutely no data nor anything of value.

Are more Austrailians bowling 2-handed because of Belmo's success? Sure.
Has it caught on with some international teams? Yes.
Is it something that has gotten some more junior/youth level bowlers interested in the sport? I think so.

But...so what?
The sport has been in massive decline since the late 70s. EVERY ATTEMPT made by the BPAA, USBC, and PBA to fix the problem...has been a complete failure.

Why is the sport dying?
1) There are FAR more things to do with our leisure time than there used to be. The choice isn't bowling or sitting at home building model ships. You now have endless, endless things you can do with your time...and that has killed almost every 70s/80s era leaisure activity.
2) Our corporate society is no longer "loose with the $". No more companies sponsoring teams, buying them shirts, etc... That used to be a part of many companies monthly expenses...but as we've gotten leaner and more focused on productivity and the bottom line...those days have disappeared.

Now...to the things that the USBC/BPAA/PBA HAVE done....which actually have further destroyed the sport:
3) As revenues have fallen...the sport now relies almost entirely on the income it receives from the major bowling ball manufacturers. Why do you think the PBA didn't even bother "investigating" whether Motiv players intentionally cheated using out of spec equipment? Because...had they investigated it...and found wrongdoing...they would have had to suspend Motiv from the PBA...and there goes a large chunk of their operating income. The ball manufacturers run the show now...so the sport caters to them...and they want balls that don't last as long, hook like crazy, and cost $300.

As a result...the sport has gotten "easier". Bowling a 300-game used to be a lifetime accomplishment...now, depending on where you bowl...it could be a monthly accomplishment. It used to takes years and years to master the bowling approach and release...now any guy with $300 can get a ball that "hooks all by itself". People used to average in the 120s-150s...trying to get better. Guys in the > 175 range were considered "good". 195...you were a pro. Now, I've seen bowlers average in the 170s the second year they pick up a ball.

4) The lane conditions are impossibly stupid and inconsistent...and the USBC has no ability nor will to police the conditions. While the ball manufacturers are KINGs....the BPAA is still the powerful source to the sport as a whole. And the BPAA...wants FUN FUN FUN....Lazer Tag....Arcades....Glo Bowling....drinking....corporate parties....and HIGH scores!! They want $$$....and as much as they can get their hands on. Lane conditions that lead to high scoring...THATs the ticket!

So, while I understand the premise of the argument...that 2-handed is a new thing that has the potential to grow the sport...realize it's not the FIRST attempt to do so. There has also been talk about converting to the World Bowling method of scoring...where spare shooting is essentially a minor part of the game. There are the "PBA Leagues" where we get to watch random bowlers picked in a stupid fantasy draft...bowl against each other in front of a fake/raucus crowd. And yes...we have 2-handers.

But how does it actually translate into making the game popular? If the game is dominated by two-handers...the one-handers will quit. That's roughly 91% of the sport. If ball manufactures start making balls that appeal more to 2-handers...1-handers will quit...again, same problem.

The "key" is fairness. When bowling balls were rubber and it was legal to soak them in a solvent before matches....bowlers soaked them in a solvent. When that was deemed "unfair"...it was banned. When block lane conditions were deemed too easy...they were banned (sort of) and we now have the THS. And, as lefties tended to have an unfair advantage at the USBC Open...changes were made to level the playing field.

2-handed bowling is no different. I'm happy it's helping to attract more youth to the sport. I think the key to reviving the sport is at the youth level...not 2-handed...but I agree it's at the youth level. But if 2-handers start to dominate the sport...I hope the sport reacts by changing lane conditions or banning it altogether....not because I hate the style...but because if it makes the sport a "joke"...and you lose 1-handers as a result...the sport is dead....DOA...do not recussitate (however you spell it). The sport doesn't "need" 2-handers...but it NEEDS 1-handers....because they are the backbone of the sport and will be for another 1-2 decades.

[2handedsniper]

its hard to do 2 handed with house balls so
cosmic bowlers can't do 2 handed so they never join a league, so cosmic bowling is doing well but leagues not so much. House balls do not have a performance core

[1VegasBowler]

Last summer while I was doing a practice session, just for the heck of it I tried a 2 handed approach. It took all of 2 throws for me to say no way! lol

First of all, it takes time to really get into being able to do it and I certainly applaud those who are able to. BUT, I also know how it felt on my body to do it as well. It made my arm, knee and back realize that the energy and torque that is put on the body is much greater than the traditional approach, and IMO it certainly raises the question as to how long one can actually do this, and how much of a toll it will take before there are some serious injuries.

Even with having a new knee, there's no way I'll do the 2 handed. But by the same token, I don't begrudge those that can do it. I just think that the body will breakdown sooner than expected.

Only time will tell what the long term effects are, and we'll see it with Belmo and the many others when they get older.

[Timmyb]

Last summer while I was doing a practice session, just for the heck of it I tried a 2 handed approach. It took all of 2 throws for me to say no way! lol

First of all, it takes time to really get into being able to do it and I certainly applaud those who are able to. BUT, I also know how it felt on my body to do it as well. It made my arm, knee and back realize that the energy and torque that is put on the body is much greater than the traditional approach, and IMO it certainly raises the question as to how long one can actually do this, and how much of a toll it will take before there are some serious injuries.

Even with having a new knee, there's no way I'll do the 2 handed. But by the same token, I don't begrudge those that can do it. I just think that the body will breakdown sooner than expected.

Only time will tell what the long term effects are, and we'll see it with Belmo and the many others when they get older.

I can't even do the "no thumb" thing. Knowing the state of my body, I'd end up in the emergency room. That being said, leave it alone. Things like this have a way of fixing themselves. If this is the way it's going to be, at least it's bringing attention to the game. But, if these guys start falling by the wayside, there's going to be a lot of "I told you so".

[Aslan]

Body "breakdown" is a known deficiency of the style.

I took a USBC youth coaching class 2-3 years back and there were a few questions about "should we teach 2-handed?" or "what if a youngster wants to bowl 2-handed?" And the USBC answer is, "whatever gets a bowling ball in their hand." If they throw a back-up ball, thumbless, or 2-handed...as long as it gets them on the lanes...at that age...it's all good. And I have no problem with that whatsoever.

BUT...the coach that was conducting the class commented that the 2-handed approach, while it had some advantages and recent successes...the one major drawback was health-related. Nearly every major 2-handed player on the tour...has had significant back problems. It's a style that...even when done properly, creates the torque the last 2 posters talked about, and most people's backs just can't handle it for long periods of time.

I've been watching the PBA50 tour (decided to get XtraFrame again despite my anger with the PBA over the Motiv situation...but only to watch the PBA50 and PWBA...I am still boycotting the National Men's Tour). The PBA50...is all about longevity. There are a LOT of great bowlers...that never end up bowling the PBA50...because by 50, their bodies are ruined. And that's throwing ONE-handed....the "right" way (I don't mean 1-handed is the "right" way....I mean they are at the highest level and their approaches/releases are smooth). Walter Ray Williams isn't the most technically sound bowler in history...but he has more titles than any bowler in history. Pete Weber and Norm Duke and Parker Bohn are still forces to be reckoned with. But where is Mark Roth? Mark Roth...is arguably the best bowler in the history of the game. But Mark Roth had too many injuries early on. His thumb, his wrist, his elbow, his shoulder. Mark Roth was the father of the "cranker" approach...and could do things that most other bowlers on the tour couldn't. And that got him a TON of success....for a very short time.

2-handed bowling is the next generation of the "cranker style". It will enjoy a great deal of success...and players will see Belmo and the others and flock to that style to give them the advantage the style brings...but I doubt you'll see many 2-handers on the PBA50 tour. And when people say Belmo is the "greatest bowler ever"...I simply respond, "we'll see." Give Belmo 7-8 more years...see if he can amass the number of titles that Weber and WRW have amassed...or Earl Anthony. But, my bet is that Belmo's back gives out long before he can amass those titles...and certainly before he's eligible for the PBA50. And then...he'll be the next "Mark Roth"...a guy who was absolutely dominant when he was in his prime...but just didn't have the longevity to be "the greatest".

At my age (older than Chip and the 20-30 somethings that tout 2-handed bowling)...my goal is to someday play at the Regional PBA level...maybe even the PBA50 someday. Those are LOFTY goals...LONG TERM goals...probably borderline "dreams" than "goals"...but in order for me to have a chance at attaining those goals...at a minimum, I have to stay healthy. My knees, ankles, elbow, shoulder, wrist...I have to make sure that I put as little strain on those areas as I can...because once they start to "go"...that ends the dream real fast. So, becoming a 2-hander or even a thumbless cranker....is not in line with me trying to stay healthy enough to bowl until I'm 60...should I live so long.

Most of the older folks on this board...had they started bowling 2-handed 5 years ago...wouldn't be bowling today. And, the reason I don't see a need for the USBC to "ban" it...is...it'll sort of "ban" itself. While we might see a lot more 2-handers at the youth level...collegiate level...and International Level....2-handers on the National Tour will tend to have shorter careers..and I doubt we'll see many two-handers ever make it to the top of any career title lists nor at the PBA50 level. And thus, it'll "limit itself".