PAP Identification Method (& Terminology)

[J Anderson]

No matter how many times you add 2 to a prime number, it's still a prime number.

Huh? Seven is a prime number. If I add two to seven I get nine, not a prime number.

[ursus]

Huh? Seven is a prime number. If I add two to seven I get nine, not a prime number.

I had saw that earlier but didn't want to get drug into this conversation

[bowl1820]

No matter how many times you add 2 to a prime number, it's still a prime number.

If you add a prime number that is odd to the only even prime number (2), you will have an odd number. This odd number might be prime or might be composite

2 + 3 = 5 which is a prime number
2 + 7 = 9 which is a composite number
2 + 23 = 25 which is a composite number
2 + 41 = 43 which is a prime number

[Mike White]

Let's give billf the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant something like..

Bob is 7 foot tall, even if you put Bob on 2 foot stilts, Bob is still 7 foot tall.

Bob + Stilts however is 9 foot tall.

Where Bob is the "prime number"

[billf]

No don't give me the benefit of the doubt. my head was just stuck in my own body cavity.

[billf]

What we are talking about is measuring where the PAP is in the first place on a ball all ready drilled.
The Vertical Axis Line is always at a 90 degree angle to the Midline]

I'm missing something Bowl. If the ball is already drilled and you know the PAP, what's the question? If PAP is unknown then there are easier methods to find it (tape, armadillo) then all the math being thrown about.

[bowl1820]

I'm missing something Bowl. If the ball is already drilled and you know the PAP, what's the question?

You might kn ow where the PAP is, but if you don't know measurements, you have to measure it. I was telling how to do it.

If PAP is unknown then there are easier methods to find it (tape, armadillo) then all the math being thrown about.

(tape, armadillo) show you where the pap is, but you still have to get the measurements

The PAP measurements are like directions to another city. You might know generally where the city is, but with out directions you can't drive there.
Tape or armadillo just show you where the city (PAP) is, but not the directions on how to get there (exactly where it's located in relation to the grip on the ball).

Positive axis point(PAP)
Fig. 1 - Positive and Negative sides of the ball

Fig. 2 - Positive Axis Point (PAP) for a right hander

A bowler's Positive Axis Point (PAP) is a point on the surface of the ball that is the positive end point of the bowlers initial axis of rotation.

Fig. 1 shows the Center of Grip, Grip Centerline and Grip Mid line, as well as the Positive and Negative sides of the ball, for a right hander. Left handers would be a mirror image of the one seen in Fig. 1.

The PAP is usually expressed as a pair of numbers, showing the PAP's offset from the Center of Grip, e.g. 4.5" over, 1.25" up, or 4 1/2" x 1 1/4" up, as seen in Fig. 2. The first number represents the horizontal offset along the Grip Midline, while the second number represents the vertical offset along the Vertical Axis Line (VAL). So, using 4 1/2" x 1 1/4" up, we know that this bowler's PAP is located 4 1/2" along the Grip Mid line and 1 1/4" up the VAL.

The PAP is instrumental in laying out a bowling, as it serves as the point of origin for the layout.

There's no math to this , just taking measurements.
and you need those measurements to put the grip back on a new ball.

Go here this shows how to find the PAP and measure it. They have videos

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/ind...ive_Axis_Point

They show three ways Pro sect, Armadillo and spinner ways of finding the pap.
All three ways the last thing on the instructions are:
7. Calculate the horizontal PAP distance by measuring the distance between the center of grip and marked PAP on the midline.
8. Calculate the vertical PAP distance by measuring the distance between the horizontal PAP measurement on the midline and the marked PAP.

And those two measurements are what this shows.

[Mike White]

There's no math to this , just taking measurements.
and you need those measurements to put the grip back on a new ball.

I disagree with this because of a minor flaw.

Yes you need measurements, but NO they do not have to be THOSE measurements.


My attempt is to show the process step by step and point out where the "over and up" method has some flaws in it.
It seems some people here don't have the patience for my style so I'll lay out the plan so you will know if/when I have achieved my goals.
It takes a while to produce the graphics because I can't draw for squat, and I'm learning how to work with the software in use.

My plan:

1) Show my opinion of the current method so we have a basis of agreement.
the current method
This picture is why I called it down, and over. From a different perspective it would be over and up.

2) Show an alternative method to achieve the same results.
alternate

3) Show the flaws in the current method.
A dual angle layout doesn't produce the same dynamic parameters for each bowler.
Graphic(s) pending

4) Develop a system that does produce the same dynamic parameters for each bowler.
To do so I will modify the approach in step 2 since it achieves better results.
Graphic(s) pending

5) Finding as close as possible a translation factor from the dual angle method to my proposed method.
Graphic(s) pending.

[billf]

Mike, I don't mean to be so impatient. I understand the trouble with drawing and graphics. I also don't mean to come across as a wise guy either. I believe I understand (fundamentally anyway) what you are attempting but as yet don't see it being able to work. With the variable associated with each individual bowler I don't see a fathomable way to obtain a system to create the same dynamics for each bowler.

Maybe I was taking some of this topic for granted. I know how to locate PAP and how to get the measurements. I also know those measurements are needed to place it correctly on an undrilled ball. The question was how to find the VAL if PAP is on the midline. My answer stays the same; the same way as if it was above or below the midline. If PAP is on the midline then it's even easier as one less measurement is needed.

[bowl1820]

I disagree with this because of a minor flaw.

Yes you need measurements, but NO they do not have to be THOSE measurements.

My attempt is to show the process step by step and point out where the "over and up" method has some flaws in it.

You've never said what those flaws are.

It seems some people here don't have the patience for my style so I'll lay out the plan so you will know if/when I have achieved my goals.
It takes a while to produce the graphics because I can't draw for squat, and I'm learning how to work with the software in use.

You say I don't patience, If I didn't have patience I would have quit this thread a long time ago. You yourself said you haven't layouted out a ball in 20 years. So your knowledge is 20 years behind the times.

You should learn about how thing are done now and why they are done that way. Before you go trying to change it.

My plan:

1) Show my opinion of the current method so we have a basis of agreement.

This picture is why I called it down, and over. From a different perspective it would be over and up.

Here is how the picture should be oriented and the lines I highlighted and labeled are where it's measured.

2) Show an alternative method to achieve the same results.

Okay you'll have to show how it works

3) Show the flaws in the current method.
A dual angle layout doesn't produce the same dynamic parameters for each bowler.
Graphic(s) pending

And just what do you base that statement (in bold) on?

Like I said before go over to the bowlingchat and ask Mo Pinel and make that statement, he developed the Dual Angle System and if the current way of measuring the pap was wrong he would know. http://www.bowlingchat.net/

4) Develop a system that does produce the same dynamic parameters for each bowler.
To do so I will modify the approach in step 2 since it achieves better results.
Graphic(s) pending

5) Finding as close as possible a translation factor from the dual angle method to my proposed method.
Graphic(s) pending.