An idea to address Sandbagging...

[billf]

You're in Texas. Take them out back and shoot them!

[Gunz1911]

I have yet to do leagues, but trying to learn all I can. Want to make sure I get "sandbagging" correct. Is it basically:

Start off the season bowling good.
When playing a team that you should beat, you bowl worse to lower your average and raise your handicap.
When playing a team you really need to beat, with a higher handicap, you have a greater chance to bowl good and beat them?

Just want to make sure I get it. If that is the case, could you not have a side prize for overall scoers through the entire league? That way a team that drops its scores on purpose will have a harder time meeting the over-all scoring.

[J Anderson]

I have yet to do leagues, but trying to learn all I can. Want to make sure I get "sandbagging" correct. Is it basically:

Start off the season bowling good.
When playing a team that you should beat, you bowl worse to lower your average and raise your handicap.
When playing a team you really need to beat, with a higher handicap, you have a greater chance to bowl good and beat them?

Just want to make sure I get it. If that is the case, could you not have a side prize for overall scoers through the entire league? That way a team that drops its scores on purpose will have a harder time meeting the over-all scoring.

Not quite. Sandbaggers tend to start the season bowling bad. There are many ways of doing it, Some will deliberately sacrifice the first week or two of the season so that they can easily beat their average the rest of the year. The more subtle ones will bowl just just good enough for their team to win. Then there are the guys who, if they see that the game is already lost, will deliberately miss in the 10th.

The problem is that except for the obvious offenses, its very hard to prove that someone is "bagging" it. We need to come up with ways that decrease the reward for doing it. Say if there were a fairly generous prize for high average that they would be losing a shot at by keeping their average low.

[e-tank]

Not quite. Sandbaggers tend to start the season bowling bad. There are many ways of doing it, Some will deliberately sacrifice the first week or two of the season so that they can easily beat their average the rest of the year. The more subtle ones will bowl just just good enough for their team to win. Then there are the guys who, if they see that the game is already lost, will deliberately miss in the 10th.

The problem is that except for the obvious offenses, its very hard to prove that someone is "bagging" it. We need to come up with ways that decrease the reward for doing it. Say if there were a fairly generous prize for high average that they would be losing a shot at by keeping their average low.

True. You cant make someone bowl their best or prove that theyre not just having an off day. The only time i thought someone was bagging was when i saw he almost bowled a 900 handicap series. His average was 120 i think so he had like a 80 pin handicap and had a 200+ average for that series. I can see one game but all 3? I think it only irked me cuz he destroyed my handicap high series of 859 haha.

Is there a rule against having subs that are waaaaay better than the member they are replacing? For example say you had a team that had a 200avg bowler and 3 140 avgs. They see that theyre playing the #1 team this week so they get 3 200+ avg subs to come in and replace the 140's. I only ask cuz this happened in league as well

[ecub]

Sandbagging is not really bowling to your full potential. Let's say you normally average 210, and you're bowling really well by the 6th frame that you could finish off with a 230. But you're team is already winning by over 100 pins. So you intentionally not bowl your best. Purposely NOT shoot a strike, but shoot high or light and just go for spares or get splits. You finish off with a 180, but your team still wins the game.

[ArtVandelay]

Not quite. Sandbaggers tend to start the season bowling bad. There are many ways of doing it, Some will deliberately sacrifice the first week or two of the season so that they can easily beat their average the rest of the year. The more subtle ones will bowl just just good enough for their team to win. Then there are the guys who, if they see that the game is already lost, will deliberately miss in the 10th.

The problem is that except for the obvious offenses, its very hard to prove that someone is "bagging" it. We need to come up with ways that decrease the reward for doing it. Say if there were a fairly generous prize for high average that they would be losing a shot at by keeping their average low.

Exactly. And in our league it is VERY difficult to find a solution because its a company sponsored league designed for fun. It has to remain fun and inclusive because there are a lot of people who are truly there just to bowl and have fun. We have a ton of straight ball bowlers and I completely believe they have improved over the course of the league because if you start doing something regularly, after a while you will likely improve.

But then there are people who understand the league rules and exploit them. The first sign of sandbagging was when we got clobbered by a team who was in 2nd place. At the time we were in first (not to brag, but we have the best team by averages) and the season was in the first stages. We gave this team about 200 pins each game, and they beat us scratch in game one and game 2. In game 3 they started doing math to find out what they needed to win. Sadly for them, their plan backfired a bit and they were down going into the 9th. After our first bowler bowled, our victory was sealed, so their team closed out the 10th with 8 gutter balls.

But we keep pretty good records, so I started crunching some numbers. Its amazing how much better the top teams bowl when positioning becomes involved.

Our team bowled in the championship position round for the first half of the season, and that same 8 gutter ball team clobbered us so badly it made us wonder why we should even try... The problem with my team is we actually try our best, so its very rare for someone to bowl 30 pins over average and we often have games when we are below our average by a little or a lot. It makes it impossible for us to win because most of the top teams have averages a good 20-40 pins below their actual averages.

2nd half of the season? We are in dead last by a good margin.

[ArtVandelay]

Is there a rule against having subs that are waaaaay better than the member they are replacing? For example say you had a team that had a 200avg bowler and 3 140 avgs. They see that theyre playing the #1 team this week so they get 3 200+ avg subs to come in and replace the 140's. I only ask cuz this happened in league as well

Im not aware of a rule against that, but thats a whole new level of awful.

At least the sandbaggers still actually BOWL. I think if you care THAT much about winning to not even BOWL when it matters, something is wrong with that.

I LOVE bowling in the big games. I just want it to be fair. Its tough carrying a 180 average when you know the person bowling across from you can put up a 650+ series with VERY little effort, but you have to GIVE that bowler pins because he has a lower average than you... Twice in this league I have given up pins to the other teams anchor only to have a 700 series rolled against me. To split, I would have had to bowled around a 750 series with my 185 (at the time) average. But in other weeks against teams that matter less, or when positions cant b drastically changed, would you believe a 2 time 700 series guy can struggle to hit 400?

Yup... Im not bitter...

[e-tank]

Im not aware of a rule against that, but thats a whole new level of awful.

At least the sandbaggers still actually BOWL. I think if you care THAT much about winning to not even BOWL when it matters, something is wrong with that.

I LOVE bowling in the big games. I just want it to be fair. Its tough carrying a 180 average when you know the person bowling across from you can put up a 650+ series with VERY little effort, but you have to GIVE that bowler pins because he has a lower average than you... Twice in this league I have given up pins to the other teams anchor only to have a 700 series rolled against me. To split, I would have had to bowled around a 750 series with my 185 (at the time) average. But in other weeks against teams that matter less, or when positions cant b drastically changed, would you believe a 2 time 700 series guy can struggle to hit 400?

Yup... Im not bitter...

haha thats rough man. That team is currently in 3rd place and were playing them this week actually. Theres only one team i struggle against and its because theyre freakin hilarious so when im trying to get ready im still thinking about what they said and loling.

[got_a_300]

Is there a rule against having subs that are waaaaay better than the member they are replacing? For example say you had a team that had a 200avg bowler and 3 140 avgs. They see that theyre playing the #1 team this week so they get 3 200+ avg subs to come in and replace the 140's. I only ask cuz this happened in league as well

Around here all of our league rules that states you must have at least 2 regular team members
present on a 4 person team and are allowed to only have 2 subs or you must forfeit the games
or points and no new subs are allowed to come in and bowl on position nights.

you hit them over a head with a roll of quarters in an old sock and yell “homie don’t play that”.

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LOL!!!! I just love that answer and it might just work.


Now as for the original question about sandbagging there isn't really an answer as that is
an age old thing that has probably been around since team bowling first started.

The way we do it around here to try and cut down on anyone trying to sandbag for the first
few weeks on our money leagues is to use last years highest book average from any of the
leagues you bowled in for the first 2 to 4 weeks of bowling of anyone starting out on any fall
money league which cuts way down on any attempts to sandbag the first few weeks.

[got_a_300]

You're in Texas. Take them out back and shoot them!

Hey that might just work bill; but the league would shrink in size in a hurry probably. LOL!!!!!!