christmas came early

[Amyers]

The "idea" (slight method to the madness)...and Rob close your eyes...was this ball was to be the "skid/flip" ball for my "Arsenal #2" (scheduled to debut in late 2015).

However...after doing some thought...I've decided to just polish up the Loaded Revolver and use that as the "sort of skid/flip" ball for Arsenal #2. I'm going to save the Exile for Arsenal #4. UNLESS...after trying 15lbs (Arsenal #2 will be 15lbs across the board)...I notice such a huge difference that I essentially sell off my remaining 16lbers and stay with 15lbs indefinitely. In THAT case, Arsenal #4 becomes Arsenal #3 or I can just switch balls in and out based on individual games rather than having to do a "wholesale" arsenal change (which is necessary when switching weights so not to have multiple different weights ball to ball).

So...preliminarily...late 2017 unless I fall in love with 15lbs. If I fall in love with 15lbs...then probably late 2016 to early 2017.

Do you have any idea how sick this actually is? And in no way possible on any planet in any sick and twisted mind is a polished Loaded Revolver comparable to the Fortera Exile. I don't say this to be mean but DO YOU ACTUALLY EVER WATCH SOMEONE THROW THESE BALLS BEFORE YOU BUY THEM? I'm sorry bud I like you but I really can't believe that anyone that has seen either of these balls thrown would think that they are in any way interchangeable or intended for even remotely the same use other than both of them are supposed to be for nocking down pins.

[Aslan]

Do you have any idea how sick this actually is? And in no way possible on any planet in any sick and twisted mind is a polished Loaded Revolver comparable to the Fortera Exile.

No, it's not. BUT...in a way it is.

What makes a ball "skid/flip"?

1) You need a ball with a higher RG; let's say 2.53+
2) You need a PEARL cover stock. A solid or hybrid will bite too early.
3) It's going to need to be polished.
4) Ideally it should have an assymetric core so it's a more angular reaction.

So; lets look at my current "skid/flip" ball...which is a POOR, POOR, POOR man's "skid/flip" ball:

Brunswick Slingshot: RG = 2.594, PEARL cover stock, polished, symmetric core

Lets look at the Loaded Revolver and Fortera Exile side by side:
Brunswick Loaded Revolver: RG = 2.547, PEARL, symmetric core
Brunswick Fortera Exile: RG = 2.534, PEARL, assymetric core, polished

So....?? Where is the big difference?? Flare potential? The Loaded revolver has a 0.054 Diff. compared to the Exile's 0.050...so it has an even better flare potential. And the Slingshot only has a 0.017 diff. and I can tell you has a much more angular backend than any ball in my arsenal.

So....?? The answer you'll be GIVEN...is coverstock strength. The Slingshot's disadvantage is it's entry level coverstock. So it has the NUMBERS of a "skid/flip" ball but is limited by it's symmetric core and entry level coverstock. I would also ADD that the Loaded Revolver's CORE being symmetric is going to limit it's angular ability...but other's will debate that. And it's more advanced coverstock should make it more reactive than the Slingshot...grab a little better.

Now, the Exile is DEFINITELY a more "skid/flip" ball than the Slingshot or Loaded Revolver. I believe thats a combination of it's assymetric core and more advanced coverstock. It's marketed directly as a "skid/flip" ball. So the decision to push it back wasn't because I thought the Loaded Revolver was a better "skid/flip" ball...but instead because I felt the Loaded revolver fits better as a "long" ball...to replace and upgrade on the Slingshot...and that the Loaded Revolver fits BETTER as a replacement to the Slingshot than it did as a "centerpiece" type ball. When I bought the Aura Mystic...and then looked at the Exile...I think those would be better together in a future arsenal. The Mystic makes a much better centerpiece ball than the Loaded Revolver.

That leaves Arsenal #2 (all 15lbs) as:

Brunswick Loaded Revolver
Brunswick Lethal Revolver
Columbia300 Dark Encounter
Rotogrip Asylum

That gives me a strong solid (Dark Encounter) to start with...then ball down options in the Asylum and Lethal Revolver (not sure which one will hook sooner...gonna have to throw them to find that out). And it gives me a "long" ball in the polished Loaded Revolver for when the lanes break down or I'm on a shorter pattern and can't stay right.

I don't say this to be mean but DO YOU ACTUALLY EVER WATCH SOMEONE THROW THESE BALLS BEFORE YOU BUY THEM? I'm sorry bud I like you but I really can't believe that anyone that has seen either of these balls thrown would think that they are in any way interchangeable or intended for even remotely the same use other than both of them are supposed to be for nocking down pins.

Well, thats tricky. I watch most if not all of the ball videos on a given ball before deciding to purchase it. But the VAST majority of these videos are useless. They are semi-pros throwing balls at massive rev rates and editing out shots that don't strike. That tells me very little.

You also have to believe in my ball experiement that showed balls don't actually differ THAT much. Drillings, cores, differentials, coverstocks...at the end of the day...surface wins. All those other things are meaningless if you're not throwing with pro release. So while yes...the Exile will behave VERY different than the Loaded Revolver for Sean Rash...we're not Sean Rash. I've done the experimentation that shows how little balls vary with a 180rpm, stroker release. I've showed how little the ball drilling actually affects the ball movement. Iceman refutes this...but has no actual data to refute it...just hypothetical numbers and what happens when a pro throws the ball. So I'll stick with the ACTUAL data.

And more to the point...putting together an arsenal ISN'T taking the 4 most different balls...BEST balls...NEWest balls...and making some "perfect" arsenal. For some it might be. But for ME...it's looking at the numbers...looking at the reaction videos...and looking at what ball is going to replace what ball that I currently have. Sometimes it's "close enough". I would prefer the Loaded Revolver have an assymetric core if I'm gonna use it for "skid/flip". Thats my preference. Rob might say it doesn't matter. MWhite and he might agree on that (causeing unicorns to poop out flying pigs and Hell to freeze over). I'd "prefer" the Dark Encounter NOT be a solid coverstock. It's replacing the Pearl Encounter...and it'll give me 2 solids...no pearls except for the Loaded Revolver...not "ideal"...but "okay".

And there's one MORE factor to consider.

This arsenal (#2) gives me a PerfectScale range of 194.1 to 209.9. So far, Arsenal #4 (that the Mystic and Exile are in) has only 3 of 4 balls with PerfectScale ratings from 212.2 to 229.7...ALL assymetric cores. Now, I'm hoping to add a symmetric core...lower PerfectScale ball to that arsenal...but...I'd "prefer" not to throw the "Big Hook" assymetric balls until my release is improved. Again, opinions vary, but I feel that the bigger the hook...and the more assymetric the core/ball...the more exxagerated every little inconsistency is going to be. Better to save the Big Boys for when I can CONTROL the Big Boys. Otherwise...it doesn't matter how much "greater" they are compared to older technology...because I can't throw them in a way that takes ADVANTAGE of that technology.

Patience Amyers. Patience. IceGod may have started hot out of the gate. He buys and drills balls every month and is always throwing the "next great thing". But my long term goal is to beat Chris Barnes in the 2025 Senior Masters. IceGod can use his magical "gift" powers to roll all the 300-series he wants and I hope in 2025 he's still alive and kicking...so he can watch my victory. But between now and then...I can't allow myself to get distracted by shiny new Hyper Cells and Cruxs and Gurus. I can't fall into that trap. I gotta improve ME...my SKILLS...not my BALLS. Buying a Formula 1 car might help me win some road races against some amateurs in suped up Honda Civics...but how proud am I going to be of having 32 Honda Civic pink slips when I finish dead last in my first ever Formula 1 race?

[Mike White]

Buying a Formula 1 car might help me win some road races against some amateurs in suped up Honda Civics...but how proud am I going to be of having 32 Honda Civic pink slips when I finish dead last in my first ever Formula 1 race?

You're going to have a hard time beating those Civics until you learn how to press on the gas pedal.

[mc_runner]

What I'm kind of confused about with the multiple arsenal idea... how are you going to decide which one to "bring" each night? Are you going to cycle between each one each week for a league? It almost sounds like you've gone from one extreme of saying that everyone only needs one ball, to the opposite end of too many balls to choose from on any given day!

[Amyers]

I will agree with a lot of what you posted here. There is no perfect arsenal that is going to magically improve your bowling and no ball is going to make you a power player or a high rev player. Those are physical things that you are going to have to do the work on to improve. My wife asked me for a Crux the other day her wrist and hand position makes your look strong it wouldn't matter what ball she throws it'd going to go straight until she learns proper wrist and hand position. If everything you say here is true then why build an arsenal at all (more less multiple ones)? Just pick out a ball that's middle of the road and throw it save your back the strain. The reason is you believe eventually that won't be your situation and your planning ahead of it. I agree that the reaction videos are worse than worthless it does me or anybody else any good to watch guys who have the ability to adjust their speed and release to make just about any ball do anything they want with it what's that prove nothing.

Watch other players who play similar to you or at least what you hope to develop your game to (be realistic) and judge the balls you want by how they react for them. You bowl in much larger establishments and larger leagues than I do I can't imagine this would be difficult for you to do. In my opinion the most important thing is you have to believe in the ball how do you develop that with 15 balls sitting in your closet? You have to believe that ball is going to work for you or it's just another rock.

The other large problem with your plan is how many of these balls are going to crack just sitting in you closet over the next 4 to 5 years without ever having been used? Do you really believe that you won't find other great deals over the next 5 years and have even more balls sitting there not being used?

Pick a weight 15 or 16. Pick out four or five of these balls that you believe are the best with some reference towards how they will play. Watch people who use them see if your opinion changes if it does change the lineup and ebay the rest. I think you will find you will learn a lot about how different balls roll, you will be bowling with balls you believe in, and your closet will thank you for removing the excess weight.

[mc_runner]

Pick a weight 15 or 16. Pick out four or five of these balls that you believe are the best with some reference towards how they will play.

Totally agree! My arsenal consists of a few different balls that will do different things on the lanes, all of the same weight (more consistency and muscle memory with 1 weight, too).

I could buy several more balls that fill the small holes in between my existing ones, but given that the ones I have give me different looks at the lane it makes sense to stick with 1 (solid vs pearl, for instance) that's working that night and make adjustments from there. I personally buy new balls when one of the ones I have isn't hitting well anymore or is obviously worn out - example, I replaced my hammer jet black taboo with a Byte last year. I'll probably be replacing my storm vivid with an asymmetric solid later this year.

What works for me may not work for you Aslan but given what you said above I see a lot of future frustration in terms of adjustments and consistency that may be a drain on your improvement. Heck I have enough problems knowing when to switch balls and read the lanes as it is.

[Aslan]

What I'm kind of confused about with the multiple arsenal idea... how are you going to decide which one to "bring" each night? Are you going to cycle between each one each week for a league? It almost sounds like you've gone from one extreme of saying that everyone only needs one ball, to the opposite end of too many balls to choose from on any given day!

You misunderstood. Only ONE arsenal. You retire one and move on to another. When my present arsenal reaches a pre-determined game total...it will be replaced wholesale with the next one.

Normally I wouldn't "wholesale" change and just change in one ball for another based on games on the individual ball...but in my case I'm experimenting with different weights so I want to keep all weights the same in each arsenal.

And yes, I originally argued against the arsenal idea and still do for players that never play in different centers or on anything other than a THS. NOT because the arsenal idea isn't a good one...just because:

1) It's LESS necessary for a typical house bowler.
2) Arsenals are like, 85% used incorrectly. What I mean by this is...very, very FEW bowlers with arsenals actually have a system for when they change balls. Even on this site, experienced bowlers, will say they do it primarily on "feel". In most cases, people change balls for no other reason than they missed a couple shots.

If everything you say here is true then why build an arsenal at all (more less multiple ones)? Just pick out a ball that's middle of the road and throw it save your back the strain. The reason is you believe eventually that won't be your situation and your planning ahead of it.

Sort of. I play in tournaments, I've bowled in over 20 different centers in 2014. I sweep in Vegas twice a year. And I play in a sport shot league. And I have a coach that is "pro-arsenal concept". Add all those up...and that has led me to experiment with arsenals. But keep in mind...on a THS, over the course of 3 league games...I am unlikely to switch balls...and if I do it's usually only once...maybe twice if 3-4 people are playing my line or I start with too agressive of a ball.

Watch other players who play similar to you or at least what you hope to develop your game to (be realistic) and judge the balls you want by how they react for them. You bowl in much larger establishments and larger leagues than I do I can't imagine this would be difficult for you to do.

The best bowlers in my league on wood threw Tropical Breezes. On synthetics, it's probably SYNCs. Tournaments, probably the Mastermind Intellect. Sport shot league...varies a lot...probably the Hyper Cell....but it varies a great deal depending on the pattern.

Don't fall into the trap of chasing the ball. Chase the bowler, not the ball. WRW and Parker Bohn can bowl 200+ games with any ball you give them. Obviously, Brunswick doesn't use that as their marketing slogan. I think it's both sad and laughable when I see a league bowler bowl well, and all the noobs ask what ball he/she is throwing because maybe they'll get that one. Then they find out it's like an old Storm Vivid or Thunder Road and they're in the pro shop asking if the pro shop has any new VIVIDs in stock.

In my opinion the most important thing is you have to believe in the ball how do you develop that with 15 balls sitting in your closet? You have to believe that ball is going to work for you or it's just another rock.

I only concern myself with how the balls in my bag are working...until the arsenal game limit is up. Then I only concern myself with the next arsenal. I'm not worried about the undrilled ones...they are just taking up space right now.

The other large problem with your plan is how many of these balls are going to crack just sitting in you closet over the next 4 to 5 years without ever having been used? Do you really believe that you won't find other great deals over the next 5 years and have even more balls sitting there not being used?

The balls "cracking" concept I admit is something I worry about. Or the balls "shrinking" over time. I'm just going to have to be optimistic that such a thing is as rare as I think it is.

Pick a weight 15 or 16.

How would I decide which one is best for me without trying a different weight arsenal?

Pick out four or five of these balls that you believe are the best with some reference towards how they will play. Watch people who use them see if your opinion changes

Well...if we work on the assumption that these people I'm watching have games virtually identical to mine...that would be a good plan. But MWhite will be quick to remind us all...that NOBODY has as bad an Aslan game as Aslan does.

if it does change the lineup and ebay the rest. I think you will find you will learn a lot about how different balls roll, you will be bowling with balls you believe in, and your closet will thank you for removing the excess weight.

Well that sounds horrible. Thats like choosing just one type of marijuana to smoke...or just ONE girl to marry and have 'relations' with...or just ONE brand of car to buy. That sounds like a horrible world.

I don't "believe in balls". I believe that when I learn to throw them properly...it won't matter what ball it is. And my closet situation will be resolved when I lose my current spouse/roommate and gain back the rest of my apartment.

But...I MAY have to Ebay the 16lbers or the 15lbers in Arsenal #3 or #4 if my weight experiment yields some unexpectedly significant results. If I start throwing 15lbs and suddenly I'm striking at 40% and rolling 700 series and 300 games...and it just feels like 16lbs was holding me back...then yeah, I'll have about 5 16lb balls to try and Ebay...or maybe offer them in trade 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 or even 4 for 1 to get some 15lb balls. But I 'doubt' it'll be an issue. I've thrown 15lb when I was throwing the Frantic...it was okay. But I've probably thrown the Rhythm even better statistically than the Frantic...and the Rhythm is 16lbs. We'll see.

I don't obviously PLAN on getting more...I'm sure sales and specials will come and go to tempt me...but in recent months...I held off getting another ball for a long time. I've bought a few lately just because of the black friday deals and getting a super special deal on the Mystic...but other than that...I've definitely reached my limit, at least until late next year when I retire Arsenal #1.

I'd say, the entire 13 balls...I'm out a total of $800. That sounds like a lot...I guess if you add it up and add some interest and what not...maybe it's enough for a bowling camp...or at least 50-75% of what I'd need for a good one. But if you break it down PER BALL...thats $805/13 = $62.94. So, when you comapare my hoarding madness...with someone like Iceman who buys 1-2 new releases every couple months...thats lets say 9 balls over 12 months...roughly $200 with drilling...he's out $1800. Now sure...I still have about $715 worth of eventualy drilling cost...but even if I add that in....I have 13 balls and thats = $1500 by the time they are all drilled. Iceman has 9...and he's at $1800.

My point is...the more I've acquired...the more picky I am and the greater the discount I need to get. I used to see a $129 ball marked down $50 and think, "Whoa! $79! Thats a pretty good deal!" Now, I don't even CONSIDER a ball unless it's marked down $85...and I'm not spending more than $79.99....at this point maybe $69.99...or even $59.95. I've passed on a LOT of balls I really would have liked to have...the Motiv Raptor Talon....the Nexxuss f(p + s)...the Columbia300 Enigma...just as examples. But once I hit about 9 in the closet...suddenly the deals had to be SO severe that another purchase was unlikely. I even had people at BBE yelling at me because I wanted a Nexxuss SO bad that I went on there looking for one...undrilled...for like $70-$80 shipped...and they were all up in arms talking about how unrealistic and stupid $80 is of an asking price for that ball. The website I saw it on had it listed at $79 shipped before they sold out.

I mean, how much are these balls when they first come out? On average...for the good stuff. $180? $160? I wait 0.5-1.5 years after they're released...I save $100 dollars for the same ball. Next year...maybe it's the Hyper Cell. Maybe the Ebonite Pivot Point. Maybe the DV8 Thug or the Radical Guru. It sounds silly now...but I imagine when people were paying $159 for a Rotogrip Defiant Edge when it was released in July 2012...they'd be shocked that had they waited 2 years...they could have gotten it for like $79. It's still $160-$185 new on Ebay. $55 + shipping for a beat up one already drilled.

Heck...maybe I even MAKE money on the deal. Lets say someone LOVES their Defiant Edge. They throw 16lbs. They can't find one NIB...because it's been discontinued for so long. So they're considering buying a used one for $55 + $25 shipping + $15 to plug it + $50 to re-drill it. Thats $145 for a USED one. Or...if I decide I don't like 16lbs and wholesale them on Ebay or BBE...$105 shipped. They end up with a brand NIB ball, the one they wanted, for $10 more than they'd pay for a used, beat up one. And I break even or make $10-$20. The TRICK will be the weight. If I decide to wholesale the 15lbers...I think I'll get a LOT of interest...but 16lbs not so much.

[fortheloveofbowling]

What makes a ball "skid/flip"?

1) You need a ball with a higher RG; let's say 2.53+
2) You need a PEARL cover stock. A solid or hybrid will bite too early.
3) It's going to need to be polished.
4) Ideally it should have an assymetric core so it's a more angular reaction.

What about the drilling? How are your skid flip balls drilled pin & mass bias wise?

[Amyers]

Well I see what your saying but two things stand out to me.

One when I was talking about watching others with the same ball it's not to see that ball make me bowl like them its to gain understanding of how the balls work like expecting the bullet train to be weaker than some of your others when it obviously is not. You need to understand more than the simple core measurements of a ball to make a decision on it.

Two I know this is not scientific and your a numbers guy but I believe one of the most important aspects of bowling is mental and it helps if you believe in the balls you throw. Making the correct decision of which ball to throw on what condition is important but just as important is developing a feel for how the lanes are playing and having confidence in what your doing. It's hard to do that when you've preplanned your arsenal for the next five years. How do you know how your game is going to change in the next five years? Maybe you become rev dominate . Maybe you develop a power game who knows.

The difference between 14,15, and 16 is more in people's heads than anything else. I don't advicate switching between weights but just pick one and bowl with it. As far as price goes who cares I can buy balls that will do anything I need for less than 150 a piece drilled. So for a four ball arsenal I've got maybe 600 in it if that turns into 700 or 750 who cares most of those balls I'm going to get a couple of years out of them some more some less so what do I have really invested .25 a game probably less. I'll take a well though out collection of 4 or 5 balls that I believe in that I know fit my game over a hundred bargin basement crap that I don't understand and I have no real connection too.

[Aslan]

What about the drilling? How are your skid flip balls drilled pin & mass bias wise?

Based on my tests; ball drilling is a minor factor. I'm sure it could slightly enhance skid/flip ability…but I've yet to see a noticeable difference.

...when I was talking about watching others...its to gain understanding of how the balls work like expecting the bullet train to be weaker than some of your others when it obviously is not. You need to understand more than the simple core measurements of a ball to make a decision on it.

Example:
Lets say I watch both you and MWhite throw the Bullet Train before I make a decision to get it. I realize it's impossible when a ball is no longer in production…so you're highly unlikely to see anyone else throw it…but lets just pretend for the sake of the example:

You throw it…high loft. MWhite throws it with much less loft. Both of you have a great deal of axis rotation. Both of you have more revs than I do…Mike much more so.

How do I take into account how a ball will work for me…when I already know the ball will hook the lane when Mike throws it and I know it will hook early when you throw it? I have a teammate that throws HIGH speed. He just bought an Optimus. The Optimus is probably one of the most "skid/flip" balls out there. So, did it "skid/flip"? Nope. Why? Because he has average RPMs and throws the ball too fast. BUT…if I just watched HIM…I'd think the Optimus was a very straight ball. Meanwhile, in my sport shot league…two ladies throw the Optimus…and with their ball speed, it hooks quite a bit. Not a lot of "snap" or "flip". What to do, what to do???

it helps if you believe in the balls you throw….Maybe you become rev dominate . Maybe you develop a power game who knows.

Then I change things.

The difference between 14,15, and 16 is more in people's heads than anything else.

I'm leaning towards it mattering…but I'm not willing to say for sure until I've actually tested it.

I'll take a well though out collection of 4 or 5 balls that I believe in that I know fit my game over a hundred bargin basement crap that I don't understand and I have no real connection too.

My point was, what you call "bargain basement poo", 2 years ago was "the next greatest thing ever".

On my last team, the worst bowler threw an Ebonite Cyclone. On my current team, the best bowler throws an Ebonite Cyclone. What does that say?