14# vs 15# ball

[vdubtx]

Think this is relevant to where this discussion went... Reading a lane from front to back vs. side to side.

http://www.usbcbowlingacademy.com/vi...-balls-006856/

[Amyers]

Great discussion! So much of what we believe about bowling balls comes from the pre-modern era, and is no longer true. Let's look at the concept that more flare equates to more hook. Before the eighties and Mark Roth turning the bejesus out of the ball, the best bowlers had the tightest tracks. The really great bowlers of the sixties and early seventies had an oil track that was about as wide as a pencil. When Roth started turning the ball, we started to see the flare rings that are now commonplace with modern bowling balls. Back then, bowlers figured out that more flare equated to more fresh ball surface coming into contact with the lane with the result being more friction. Now, after the introduction of modern balls with cores, every ball flares to some degree. Think about this: if there is 1/4" between the flare rings, or 1/2" between the flare rings, or 1" between the flare rings, is there more ball surface coming into contact with the lane? The only difference is the length of the bow-tie which is so small as to be irrelevant in the discussion. The real reason that the amount of flare is important is not that more flare hooks more, but that more flare indicates a faster transition of the axis from the PAP of the bowler to the PSA of the bowling ball. In other words, the amount of flare is important in determining the shape of the reaction, not how much the ball hooks.

This is different than anything I have ever read on this subject flare potential has always been linked to the amount of hook in everything else I have seen. So basically a low differential will cause a ball to transition slower probably making the ball more skid flip (subject to other factors such as cover strength, rg, and surface). and a higher differential will transition quicker causing earlier hook? makes sense what you said clean ball surface is clean ball surface regardless of space between the rings.

[bowl1820]

I hate to shatter your delusion, but if you gauge the amount of hook by the angle of the change of direction, then the only thing that determines how much a ball hooks is the release of the bowler.

If you gauge the amount of hook by the number of boards covered, then the ball that hooks the most is the one that hooks the soonest.

I don't exactly agree with that, just because a ball "hooks" sooner doesn't necessarily mean it covers more boards.

Here's from a post I made before:

Most of the time when people say "Hook" what they are referring to is backend, that dramatic angle change.

Now You have:
Frontend Boards Covered (FBC): This is the number of boards crossed from the laydown point to the breakpoint.

Backend Boards Covered (BBC): This is the total number of boards crossed from the breakpoint to the entry board at the pocket.

Total Boards Covered (TBC): This is the total number of boards crossed from the time the ball contacts the lane until it enters the pocket.

Here's a simple example:
The illustration is not remotely to scale and so the ball paths are slightly distorted and would look different on a actual lane.


Which hooked more?

Most would say the Red ball "Hooked" more because they see it make that dramatic angle change, It went long and snapped hard. But both balls (Red & Black) have covered the same amount of boards, The main difference was just where the ball made the change in direction "hooked". The Red ball hooked later than the Black one.

IMHO, the perfect scale is a load of crap made for bowlers who don't want to take the time to really learn about modern bowling balls.

As for the "Perfect Scale" one of the main problems with it is, that part of the calculation is based on the manufactures hook scale. But the manufactures hook scales vary from manufacture to manufacture because they don't use the same standard.

Which can throw off the ratings and you'll have things like balls that are rated the same, but react totally different in use or rated totally different but react almost just alike when drilled.

But on the other hand if your pretty new and don't know squat. It's better than nothing and is a quick way to get a idea of how some balls might compare, it would at least give you a starting point when talking to the PSO.


As for "bowlers who don't want to take the time to really learn about modern bowling balls." I don't think just because someone uses the Perfect Scale as a guide. Doesn't mean they don't want to take the time to learn, it could just be their new and that's a place to start. Until they find out what they need to learn about.

[Amyers]

So all balls have the same hook potential just a difference of how quickly they read the lanes?
Let’s assume both balls have the same core and drilled the same just 2 different cover stocks.
Ball A goes over the arrows at board 20 out to board 8 starts to break at 40 feet and goes back to the pocket at 17.5.
Ball B using the same target having a less aggressive cover stock and slides more going past ball A’s break point and goes 43 feet before it starts to break and misses the pocket. If the pins were back 3 feet further would it hit the pocket? Being as the ball is sliding longer it will travel out to the 7 or even 6 board. Would it need maybe 4 extra feet to recover and hit pocket? Or is the ball never going to get there?

Too may possibilities to really answer that question. It would depend on the angle the ball is traveling at and whether the ball was still hooking or just rolling at that point. As long as there was enough change of direction to get the ball to head towards the pocket it would reach that point at some time but at what distance would require you to know too many variables.

[Amyers]

I don't exactly agree with that, just because a ball "hooks" sooner doesn't necessarily mean it covers more boards.

Here's from a post I made before:

Most of the time when people say "Hook" what they are referring to is backend, that dramatic angle change.

Now You have:
Frontend Boards Covered (FBC): This is the number of boards crossed from the laydown point to the breakpoint.

Backend Boards Covered (BBC): This is the total number of boards crossed from the breakpoint to the entry board at the pocket.

Total Boards Covered (TBC): This is the total number of boards crossed from the time the ball contacts the lane until it enters the pocket.

Here's a simple example:
The illustration is not remotely to scale and so the ball paths are slightly distorted and would look different on a actual lane.


Which hooked more?

Most would say the Red ball "Hooked" more because they see it make that dramatic angle change, It went long and snapped hard. But both balls (Red & Black) have covered the same amount of boards, The main difference was just where the ball made the change in direction "hooked". The Red ball hooked later than the Black one.




As for the "Perfect Scale" one of the main problems with it is, that part of the calculation is based on the manufactures hook scale. But the manufactures hook scales vary from manufacture to manufacture because they don't use the same standard.

Which can throw off the ratings and you'll have things like balls that are rated the same, but react totally different in use or rated totally different but react almost just alike when drilled.

But on the other hand if your pretty new and don't know squat. It's better than nothing and is a quick way to get a idea of how some balls might compare, it would at least give you a starting point when talking to the PSO.


As for "bowlers who don't want to take the time to really learn about modern bowling balls." I don't think just because someone uses the Perfect Scale as a guide. Doesn't mean they don't want to take the time to learn, it could just be their new and that's a place to start. Until they find out what they need to learn about.

I agree with you on bowlers perception of hook in your illustration. The real problem with the "perfect scale" and newer bowlers or just bowlers who don't bother to learn about bowling balls is said bowler looks at his ball sees it rated at "175" wants to play deeper on the lane goes out and buys hook monster bowling ball rated "250" then expects to be able to stand on 40 play over the 4th arrow and doesn't understand why his ball never makes it back to the pocket.

His rev rate, ball speed and other stats determine how deep he can play not the "strength" of the ball. Now the higher perfect scale rated ball may handle the oil over the middle slightly better but it's not really going to make the ball hook any farther.

[RobLV1]

I agree with you on bowlers perception of hook in your illustration. The real problem with the "perfect scale" and newer bowlers or just bowlers who don't bother to learn about bowling balls is said bowler looks at his ball sees it rated at "175" wants to play deeper on the lane goes out and buys hook monster bowling ball rated "250" then expects to be able to stand on 40 play over the 4th arrow and doesn't understand why his ball never makes it back to the pocket.

His rev rate, ball speed and other stats determine how deep he can play not the "strength" of the ball. Now the higher perfect scale rated ball may handle the oil over the middle slightly better but it's not really going to make the ball hook any farther.

Again, it comes down to the difficulties inherent in any bowling discussion based on the knowledge and experience of the participants. As an example, your reference to a bowler who buys a hook monster based on the perfect scale and wants to play deeper on the lane assumes that the said bowler even understands that you CAN play on parts of the lane other than the second arrow. It also assumes that the said bowler does not believe that a ball that hooks more will result in more strikes for some magic reason.

[ChuckR]

We are opening up the old issue of Mental vs Physical. When I start to make a line change, usually left, I have to mentally TRUST that the same delivery will work.
I have to believe that I CAN throw the same delivery that wasn't working and only change the line. It is so common to change the line and the delivery which results in the same problem as before, NO STRIKES.

[Mike White]

The perfect scale is just a method of determining possible hook potential. Yes, I do understand that it can be a little misleading, but it's like every other statistic, like ERA/WHIP in baseball, or free point throws made in basketball. It's all just a number. But we can use that number to get a better idea of what kind of ball would be best for us. Again, I'm just a kid, so this perfect scale is just a scale for me to use until I can better understand the make of cores and all of that good stuff with the modern day bowling ball.

The perfect scale (bowlingball.com) is wrong for the 3 balls I have.

1) White Dot perfect scale 5.0
2) Mix perfect scale 100.9
3) Scout perfect scale 82.0

In reality, the White Dot, and the Mix are very close, with the Mix hooking a bit more to give better carry.
The Scout will jump left off the dry area, so frequently it is unusable on a house condition for me.

All three of these balls have pancake weight blocks, so the main difference in them is the coverstock, which I pretty much leave alone.

[dougb]

When I decreased form 15# to 14#, I saw little difference in lack of carry. Quite the opposite, as I saw more carry because I was more accurate, and I had a bit more ball speed. Coach says the ball speed I gained more than offset the difference in weight of ball, but he is opposed to dropping to 13#, as he says you will see more difference from 14# to 13# or lower. Encouraging me to do whatever is necessary (working out) in order to maintain being comfortable with 14#.

This was exactly my experience. I started out bowling with 14s, went up to 15s, and recently dropped back down as an experiment. I just finished selling off my 15s and am about to pull the trigger on a new 4-ball arsenal.

I saw no difference in carry. In fact, maybe a slight increase as my speed is much more consistent now. Most important, I am not tired after 3-4 games and my spare game has improved for that reason alone.