What's your opinion ? 14 / 15, design or ?

[Tony]

I have been throwing some practice games with my new 14lb Diva Divine (won here / thanks) and it's a nice ball.
Went out last week and the lanes were so greasy it just skidded. So decided yesterday to bring along my main
ball from last year a 15 lb Roto-Grip Hyper cell skid.

I alternated shots with each ball and it was very apparent that the hyper cell had better pin action and carry than the diva,
I played 2 full games like this and concluded the hyper-cell hit harder and carried more non-perfect shots than the diva.
My speed was a little higher with the diva 1 to 2 mph

They are different designed, weight balls with the diva being continuous motion and hyper cell a skid flip. Both are drilled in a standard pin up with pin above ring finger.

I am looking for some observations on why the hyper cell seems to hit harder and carry better.

Do you think it's the ball design itself, the weight difference, or something else? Thanks

[John Anderson]

Physics wise, 2mph is enough to give the 1lb lighter ball more momentum, thus eliminating that idea as to why the heavier ball hits harder. I'm going to guess that the energy transfer is different because of pocket entry angle and when the ball starts to get into a roll causing a loss of energy sooner with the Diva Divine. The hyper cell should retain energy longer since it is heavier and gives more of a snap type reaction thus allowing it to enter a roll very late in comparison and storing more energy.

I'm no expert though, this is just my theory which may not be right what so ever.

[Mike White]

Physics wise, 2mph is enough to give the 1lb lighter ball more momentum

You were good up to that point, then it fell apart.

Most of the problem is how you define "hit".

Hit should be measured as the probability of getting a strike.

Hit is a mixture of momentum, location, entry angle.

Location is the most important factor of the three, followed by entry angle, then momentum.

A 14 lb ball can be thrown faster, but to generate entry angle requires an increase in rev rate.

Generating a increase in rev rate becomes much harder as the ball speed increases.

If your hand at release is traveling the same speed as the ball, you generate a 0 rev rate off your hand.

To achieve a higher rev rate, your hand has to be traveling faster than the ball.

As you increase ball speed, your hand has to increase speed just the keep up with the ball speed increase, then increase even more to generate additional rev rate.

At 250 rpm, the surface of the ball is traveling at a rate of about 6.39 mph. so to throw a ball at 16 mph, and 250 rpm, your hand at release is traveling at 22.39 mph. or more.

To throw a ball at 18 mph, with 350 rpm, (350 rpm = 8.95 mph surface speed) your hand at release is traveling at 26.95 mph or more.

[Aslan]

I've been able to greatly improve my release by going from 16lbs to 15lbs recently....but I've also had carry issues that I wasn't experiencing with the 16lb equipment.

Since I keep rather meticulous stats...it's easier for me to see the differences. With 16lb balls, I rarely ever left an 8-pin. If I did, it was because I came in light and left the 1-2-8. But usually, with 16lb equipment...less deflection...if I hit the pocket, the ball would manage to send a pin into the 8-pin or the ball itself would take it out.

Now...I'm getting better angle, I'm overall striking better, I think I'm getting more rpms (although I haven't measured that yet), but I leave a lot more (statistically speaking) 8-10s and occasional single 8-pins. There 'could' be another reason for it...but the most LIKELY reason is the 15lb ball, even with the improved entry angle allowing for more striking...lighter hits aren't going to carry the 8-pin.

Nowadays everyone is convinced that lighter is the way to go...but when you challenge them by asking them whether we should all switch to 13lb, 10lb, or 6lb....suddenly they change their mind. If lighter is better...then lighter is better. If not, then it's not.

The vast, vast majority of people I see throwing 14lb or lighter are women, children, the elderly, or those with injuries (shoulder, elbow, wrist, etc...). The others that throw 14 or lower are generally the high rev thumbless bowlers. While 30 years ago it was mostly 16lb with some 15lb throw in...now it's by FAR mostly 15lb. MWhite might be able to give a more accurate estimate based on which customers bought 15lbs versus the other weights.

[Tony]

The vast, vast majority of people I see throwing 14lb or lighter are women, children, the elderly, or those with injuries (shoulder, elbow, wrist, etc...). The others that throw 14 or lower are generally the high rev thumbless bowlers. While 30 years ago it was mostly 16lb with some 15lb throw in...now it's by FAR mostly 15lb. MWhite might be able to give a more accurate estimate based on which customers bought 15lbs versus the other weights.

I have had Rotater cuff , bicep tendon and carpel tunnel surgeries on my right arm, I can throw a 15lb ball for 3 games with slight pain but if I want to practice and throw a few more balls I have quite a bit of trouble. I don't throw with a lot of revs, I just use a basic behind the ball 1/4 rotation release.
So judging by your stats would you would be more inclined to say the weight is the issue more than anything?

[ALazySavage]

Assuming a fair amount of factors: The balls are drilled to do similar things (I know it is symmetric vs asymmetric so it won't be the same), you are mechanically doing the same thing (ball speed, release, etc.) I would think of it as follows.

First thought would be that the Hyper Cell Skid simply matched up better to the pattern than the Diva; the combination of the core differential (asymmetric equipment tends to be more angular), the ball weight, and a ball that is generally "hooks" more may of just created better carry. In regards to the weight of a ball, if you can control all other factors - lane condition, core, surface, drilling, mechanics, ball roll (revs and roll characteristics) - the heavier ball will deflect less, which can be good or bad depending on the condition. Different weights can obviously effect mechanics in a variety of ways.

With all of that I can't say what the cause of the better carry was with the Hyper Cell, but you can probably come to the conclusion that it simply matched the condition you were bowling on better than the Diva.

[Tony]

You were good up to that point, then it fell apart.

Most of the problem is how you define "hit".

Hit should be measured as the probability of getting a strike.

Hit is a mixture of momentum, location, entry angle.

Location is the most important factor of the three, followed by entry angle, then momentum.

A 14 lb ball can be thrown faster, but to generate entry angle requires an increase in rev rate.

Generating a increase in rev rate becomes much harder as the ball speed increases.

If your hand at release is traveling the same speed as the ball, you generate a 0 rev rate off your hand.

To achieve a higher rev rate, your hand has to be traveling faster than the ball.

As you increase ball speed, your hand has to increase speed just the keep up with the ball speed increase, then increase even more to generate additional rev rate.

At 250 rpm, the surface of the ball is traveling at a rate of about 6.39 mph. so to throw a ball at 16 mph, and 250 rpm, your hand at release is traveling at 22.39 mph. or more.

To throw a ball at 18 mph, with 350 rpm, (350 rpm = 8.95 mph surface speed) your hand at release is traveling at 26.95 mph or more.

In my original description 'hit" was used with the basic definition, not a bowling specific definition of the word. As in "To strike or deal a blow".

It appears from observation that the 15lb hyper cell ball imparts more force at impact to the pins than the 14 lb diva ball.

The 14 lb ball is not being thrown with a much higher rev rate than the 15 lb ball, I am not trying to put more revs on the 14lb ball.

The reason to reduce weight was to save wear and tear on an arm that has already had more than it's share of surgery and I was told by many people the loss of carry
was minimal if any. It appears to be more than minimal between these two balls and outside of buying a 14 or 15 lb ball to give me a matching set on the same ball and testing it myself I am looking for outside assistance to help in deciding to stay with 14 or go back to 15 for this season.

[Mike White]

In my original description 'hit" was used with the basic definition, not a bowling specific definition of the word. As in "To strike or deal a blow".

It appears from observation that the 15lb hyper cell ball imparts more force at impact to the pins than the 14 lb diva ball.

The 14 lb ball is not being thrown with a much higher rev rate than the 15 lb ball, I am not trying to put more revs on the 14lb ball.

The reason to reduce weight was to save wear and tear on an arm that has already had more than it's share of surgery and I was told by many people the loss of carry
was minimal if any. It appears to be more than minimal between these two balls and outside of buying a 14 or 15 lb ball to give me a matching set on the same ball and testing it myself I am looking for outside assistance to help in deciding to stay with 14 or go back to 15 for this season.

MY point about the word hit, is people will watch a ball stop hooking, and roll flat thru the back ends and say that ball doesn't hit.

Now if might not hit in terms of knocking down pins in their assigned positions, but I surely doubt you would be willing to park your car at the end of the lane and let the ball "hit" your car.

It appears your choice is bowl potentially higher scores for a short period of time, or accept lower scores for a longer period of time.

The reason people years back dropped from 16 lbs to 15 (without injury) was when balls began to hook more, a 16 lbs ball could achieve both angle and momentum that would keep the ball from deflecting an effective amount. By decreasing the weight, the increased the deflection.

Back when "everybody" threw 16 lbs balls, they didn't hook much, so angle of entry was minimal. Accuracy was still the highest priority, and if you tried to throw the ball harder, it tended to reduce accuracy.

The game has changed, and the skill set required to beat your opponents has changed as well.

[billf]

I would bet you play outside and the Diva is encountering too much friction during the skid phase reducing the potential energy at impact.

[Mike White]

I would bet you play outside and the Diva is encountering too much friction during the skid phase reducing the potential energy at impact.

I'll take that bet, and you get the name the stakes.

If the ball is encountering "too much" friction, then it is no longer in the skid phase.