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[Amyers]

The point is the man can still read a lane and if he told me there was carry down and i was on his pair then i think i would listen.

I can't really speak about the higher volume PBA patterns maybe that changes things. I'm not going to start a pissing contest with Randy either. I can only speak for what I see and experience in my leagues and the testing data that I've looked at. I will say that I have experienced high level bowlers spouting out dated information about bowling that just isn't true anymore but not from the PBA level.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I can't really speak about the higher volume PBA patterns maybe that changes things. I'm not going to start a pissing contest with Randy either. I can only speak for what I see and experience in my leagues and the testing data that I've looked at. I will say that I have experienced high level bowlers spouting out dated information about bowling that just isn't true anymore but not from the PBA level.

I just like to keep a open mind in bowling, i'm already starting to be old and set in my ways otherwise.

[Aslan]

Being asymmetrical or symmetrical doesn't determine what type of motion the ball has.

Symmetrical drilled balls yield small differential ratios. Small differential ratios will produce a smooth, controllable motion when compared to an asymmetrical ball.

Asymmetrical drilled balls show a defined, angular motion. These balls can create more area at the break point and will respond to friction faster at the break point than symmetrical balls.

Symmetric cores tend to be smoother or more predictable on a variety of lane conditions, while asymmetrical core can be stronger or more angular on the backend they can also give varied results depending on conditions and changes in thew release.

According to bowlingball.com's experts; you are wrong.

So is Amyers right or wrong? Does the core affect the ball motion/path or doesn't it? Or is this yet another example of where we have a measurable item (insert any spec) that is essentially meaningless?

See...this is my pet peeve...for Rob, he terms it "common myths". For me...it's when specs are introduced...yet they ultimately don't mean anything. We've seen that with drill layouts. People are rabidly convinced that drill layouts have an impact. Cover stocks...again, many people (including myself) will base their arsenals on cover material. And now we're talking cores.

Either these things are MEANINGFUL....or they just add confusion. Maybe for pros...some of this stuff means something...because it tweaks something ever so slightly...but if it's THAT SLIGHT....it's nothing but a distraction to 99.999998% of bowlers.

And the excuses I often hear are illogical excuses:
"Well, for some people..." WRONG. We're talking about physics....it's yes or no. Not sometimes or maybe or it might.

"It depends on the manufacturer" WRONG. Materials...yes. How a core or RG affects a ball motion...NO. That's physics...Motiv can't bend the laws of the Universe any more than Ebonite can.

most of the asymmetrical balls on the market really aren't super asymmetrical anyways. My guesstimate would be a double thumb or motion hole layout in a symmetrical ball makes it about as asymmetrical as most asymmetricals. Those balls with asymmetry greater than .17 are far and few between.

THEN...WHY IS IT A THING? If cover doesn't matter...because it can be easily manipulated...then why is it a THING? It only makes people jaded towards the ball industry....assuming they are just trying to sell more balls by making stuff up. Either it MATTERS...or it DOESN'T.

As I said before asymmetry only enhances the balls existing reaction. If a ball is designed to be skid/flip that it would make it more so but a ball can have any style of hook with either type of core.

I must not be making myself clear...

What does "skid/flip" mean? If you (amyers or whomever)...wants to make the PERFECT SKID FLIP ball....what QUALITIES would you want it to have to maximize "skid/flip"?

Would you want it to, for example, "skid"? I would. Be kinda dumb to have a non-skidding skid/flip ball.

So how do we enhance making a ball "skid"? If your answer is "polish it"...then a dull skid/flip ball....would be COUNTER to what you want. So a solid/sanded skid/flip ball....would actually be working against itself. It would be like buying a faster car but having a limiting switch on it so it's actually slower than your last car. Why buy it in the first place?

Now...when we solve the "skid" part....what enhances a ball's "flip"? And if you say "assymetric core"....then by DEFINITION....a symmetric core would work AGAINST "flip". So a solid, symmetric skid/flip ball...is NOT a skid/flip ball.

We have all these terms and specs....we have experts climbing over top one another to try and sell us on what is important and what isn't...and at the end of the day...there's literally no consensus on pretty much anything. The only consensus seems to be that sanding makes a ball hook sooner and polish makes it hook later...which then makes us scratch our head about RGs...why have a polished ball with a 2.48 RG? So the surface will try to make the ball go longer and the core will be fighting to make it enter the hook phase sooner? It's like buying faster running shoes and then putting a cinder block in your backpack.

Sometimes I think the "right" ball...is just whatever works for you in a given house. And since the consistency between houses is non-existent....it's just a matter of "getting lucky" that your new arsenal has a ball that works versus the guy who is struggling because his arsenal would work better at a different house/condition.

[Amyers]

Symmetrical drilled balls yield small differential ratios. Small differential ratios will produce a smooth, controllable motion when compared to an asymmetrical ball.

Asymmetrical drilled balls show a defined, angular motion. These balls can create more area at the break point and will respond to friction faster at the break point than symmetrical balls.

This is nonsense at it's best. First off you can find equal differentials between symmetric and asymmetric balls, so that's just malarkey. You do need some differential in a skid/flip reaction but too much can cause the ball to over react too so that's just junk too.

Symmetric cores tend to be smoother or more predictable on a variety of lane conditions, while asymmetrical core can be stronger or more angular on the backend they can also give varied results depending on conditions and changes in thew release.

Personally myself I can't see any difference in how my symmetrical balls react to a poor release than my asymmetrical balls if I throw either like crap they both roll like crap. I did see a piece from Jeff Richgels one time that he preferred symmetrical balls because they responded more to hand position changes which I would agree with.

Quote Originally Posted by Amyers View Post

most of the asymmetrical balls on the market really aren't super asymmetrical anyways. My guesstimate would be a double thumb or motion hole layout in a symmetrical ball makes it about as asymmetrical as most asymmetricals. Those balls with asymmetry greater than .17 are far and few between.
THEN...WHY IS IT A THING? If cover doesn't matter...because it can be easily manipulated...then why is it a THING? It only makes people jaded towards the ball industry....assuming they are just trying to sell more balls by making stuff up. Either it MATTERS...or it DOESN'T.

It still maters just not in the way you think. Did I say they all roll the same no. It does matter just it doesn't automatically make the ball skid flip.

I must not be making myself clear...

What does "skid/flip" mean? If you (amyers or whomever)...wants to make the PERFECT SKID FLIP ball....what QUALITIES would you want it to have to maximize "skid/flip"?
Would you want it to, for example, "skid"? I would. Be kinda dumb to have a non-skidding skid/flip ball.

Skid/flip is the more reverse hockey stick shaped movement you mentioned. polished or less surface 4k can still be pretty flippy, Higher Rg above 2.5 usually but the less surface you have the lower the RG can be, mid/high differential .4 to .5 works best. most balls with these characteristics will be in the shot shape we are talking about. Can you add an asymmetric core here of course and the ball will have a stronger motion does that mean you have too? No. Bigger isn't always better.

Now...when we solve the "skid" part....what enhances a ball's "flip"? And if you say "assymetric core"....then by DEFINITION....a symmetric core would work AGAINST "flip". So a solid, symmetric skid/flip ball...is NOT a skid/flip ball.

This is where you go off path. Does an asymmetrical core offer enhanced motion yes but the symmetric core doesn't work against motion it simply doesn't magnify it. Again you don't always want more often you need less. If I was trying to build the biggest backendest hooking ball it would have an asymmetrical core. Does that make it the only skid/flip ball? Of course not. Just because we have the same heavy oil ball at 1000 grit and you sand yours to 500 doesn't mean that my ball isn't a heavy oil ball anymore.

So how do we enhance making a ball "skid"? If your answer is "polish it"...then a dull skid/flip ball....would be COUNTER to what you want. So a solid/sanded skid/flip ball....would actually be working against itself. It would be like buying a faster car but having a limiting switch on it so it's actually slower than your last car. Why buy it in the first place?

Most heavy oil balls feature sanded covers and asymmetrical cores again the asymmetrical core enhances the motion it allows the ball to start up sooner and harder in the heavier oil where you need it. That's why you buy it.

Come on you know that not all asymmetrical balls are skid flip. You've talked about the Hyper Cell before that's an asymmetrical ball definitely not skid flip. Take the same core change the surface and wow it goes from a heavy oil ball to a skid flip ball amazing.

[Doghouse Reilly]

What does "skid/flip" mean?

Skid/flip implies that the ball retains axis rotation better/longer.

what enhances a ball's "flip"? And if you say "assymetric core"....then by DEFINITION....a symmetric core would work AGAINST "flip". So a solid, symmetric skid/flip ball...is NOT a skid/flip ball.

A Symmetrical core doesn't work against flip, it just doesn't enhance it like a Asymmetrical core would.

So the surface will try to make the ball go longer and the core will be fighting to make it enter the hook phase sooner? It's like buying faster running shoes and then putting a cinder block in your backpack.

No, it's not a cinder block in the backpack.

Sanding & Polishing is changing the tires on the car, so it matches the road surface better and gets the grip at the proper time so the power from the engine isn't wasted.

[RobLV1]

The point is the man can still read a lane and if he told me there was carry down and i was on his pair then i think i would listen.

No one is questioning Randy's ability to read a lane and make the correct adjustment (with the help of his ball rep who recommends a ball change to compliment the adjustment), it is his reasoning that I question. The article that I wrote that was the subject of this thread lists the logic behind my beliefs. I may be right. I may be wrong. Whether right or wrong, at least I'm thinking about it, and trying to encourage you all to think about it; logically. Mindlessly quoting "truths" that you've believed for years just doesn't make it if you want to excel at modern bowling, unless, of course, you have a ball rep that accompanies you to league each week.

[Aslan]

Skid/flip implies that the ball retains axis rotation better/longer.

Great! Finally....a definition we can use!

Okay...given that definition...I'm going to assume it is correct. Statistical analysis and scientific method teach us that when trying to prove something, our null hypothesis is that the opposite is true. So for the purpose of this exercise...We are going to try and "disprove" that:

Null Hypothesis: "A skid/flip ball has characteristics that cause the ball to lose (not retain) it's axis rotation both in quality and time."

So, lets apply 3 questions:

1) What bowling ball specifications (manufacturer, symmetry, core, RG, differential, cover stock, surface prep, age, drilling layout, etc...) cause or contribute to a ball losing and/or not retaining it's axis rotation?

2) What bowling ball specifications (manufacturer, symmetry, core, RG, differential, cover stock, surface prep, age, drilling layout, etc...) works AGAINST a ball losing and/or not retaining it's axis rotation?

3) What bowling ball specifications (manufacturer, symmetry, core, RG, differential, cover stock, surface prep, age, drilling layout, etc...) have no noticeable nor measurable effect on a ball losing and/or retaining it's axis rotation?

A Symmetrical core doesn't work against flip, it just doesn't enhance it like a Asymmetrical core would.

or

This is where you go off path. Does an asymmetrical core offer enhanced motion yes but the symmetric core doesn't work against motion it simply doesn't magnify it. Again you don't always want more often you need less.

According to those statements, if true, core symmetry has no noticeable nor measurable effect and thus fit in category #3.

Sanding & Polishing is changing the tires on the car, so it matches the road surface better and gets the grip at the proper time so the power from the engine isn't wasted.

But if you put all season radials or snow chains on a formula one or Nascar race car...that would not be ideal. Therefore, one can reasonably say that tires have a noticeable effect on wasting engine power. Thus, there is a 'better' tire and a 'worse' tire. According to your and Amyer's answers....when we talk about core symmetry...it's as if tires really have no noticeable nor measureable effect...thus use whatever tire....it doesn't matter.

Come on you know that not all asymmetrical balls are skid flip. You've talked about the Hyper Cell before that's an asymmetrical ball definitely not skid flip. Take the same core change the surface and wow it goes from a heavy oil ball to a skid flip ball amazing.

Not true. I would bet the Hyper Cell Skid is very "skid/flip". First hint....it's named the Hyper Cell SKID. Second, it's advertised as having an "angular breakpoint shape". Third, here is part of the description of the ball:

...the Skid does just that: skids through the tough patches and delivers what's important at the end - higher scores and great backend reaction.

But, back to the 3 questions. Let me take a stab at these:

1) What bowling ball specifications (manufacturer, symmetry, core, RG, differential, cover stock, surface prep, age, drilling layout, etc...) cause or contribute to a ball losing and/or not retaining it's axis rotation?

- Any ball spec that causes a ball to hook sooner. Thus;
Manufacturer: Brunswick and Radical
Symmetry: n/a
Core: possibly
RG: A lower RG
Diff.: possibly
Cover Stock: Solid and to a lesser extent Hybrid
Surface Prep: Sanding
Age: n/a
Drilling Layout: possibly

2) What bowling ball specifications (manufacturer, symmetry, core, RG, differential, cover stock, surface prep, age, drilling layout, etc...) works AGAINST a ball losing and/or not retaining it's axis rotation?

- Any ball spec that causes a ball to go longer. Thus;
Manufacturer: Ebonite, 900Global, Storm??
Symmetry: n/a
Core: possibly
RG: A higher RG
Diff.: possibly
Cover Stock: Pearl and to a lesser extent Hybrid
Surface Prep: Polishing
Age: n/a
Drilling Layout: possibly

3) What bowling ball specifications (manufacturer, symmetry, core, RG, differential, cover stock, surface prep, age, drilling layout, etc...) have no noticeable nor measurable effect on a ball losing and/or retaining it's axis rotation?

- Any ball spec that causes a ball to hook sooner. Thus;
Manufacturer: Motiv?
Symmetry
Core: possibly
Diff.: possibly
Cover Stock: Hybrid
Surface Prep: mid-abralon....smooth, not sanded, but not polished
Age
Drilling Layout: possibly

So, how would we test this hypothesis on the lanes?

We would take two balls:

Ball #1: A Radical ball with the lowest RG and a solid cover that is sanded to the most course surface allowable.

Ball #2: An Ebonite ball with the highest RG, a Pearl cover, that is polished.

For this test we would compare the Radical Guru Master, sanded to 350 Abralon versus the 900Global Respect Pearl, polished.
We would throw both balls, preferably using the USBC robot for consistency, and if the sanded Guru Master retained it's energy better and went longer than the 900Global Respect Pearl...our null hypothesis would be proven correct and thus our true hypothesis would be false.

So what is a better "skid/flip" ball? A sanded Guru Master? Or a 900Global Respect Pearl?

Now remember...we're working off a great many assumptions that other factors have no effect on a ball's "skid/flip"...only manufacturer, cover, surface prep, and RG. If we feel those are incorrect assumptions...then we would have to alter our lists accordingly, and probably choose different balls. I actually predict that some of those other specs ARE significant....otherwise...my Track300A is a perfect skid/flip ball as are most very low-end reactive pearls...like Scouts and Blurs. They have high RGs, are pearls, and can be polished.

And, that is where I predict this analysis falls short...we have defined "skid" very well...we have not taken into account (IMO) the "flip" part of the equation. I have a feeling, the core is vitally important in terms of angular motion and a "flip" reaction...and we are only using RG in our hypothesis.

This is how science approaches these questions. It's not about what you "feel' or what you "saw a guy do last week" or your personal beliefs. It's about a hypothesis, assumptions, and testing. If done properly...we could, in theory, create a "perfect" 'skid/flip' ball. And anything that detracts from that ideal...is LESS of a skid/flip ball.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Officially the nerdiest and worst post ever.

[Amyers]

Not true. I would bet the Hyper Cell Skid is very "skid/flip". First hint....it's named the Hyper Cell SKID. Second, it's advertised as having an "angular breakpoint shape". Third, here is part of the description of the ball

:

I was referring to the difference between the Hyper Cell and the Hyper Cell Skid. Change the surface and suddenly a heavy oil ball becomes a Skid Flip ball. They do make both.

I think we've gotten off track with this the original question was about if a symmetrical ball can have a skid flip reaction. The obvious answer is yes but probably less than it would if the same ball had an asymmetric core. I also disagree with your hypothesis that just because the backend is bigger that makes it better. Most often in life as some point more quickly becomes too much. We've actually taken a post that I think has some good topics and filled it full of crap now so I'm done.

[Aslan]

I agree Amyers...

That Melee Jab RobM gave me...I loved that ball...but trying to fit it in my progression based on it's lower RG and newer technology turned out to be a mistake. That ball actually went longer than the Loaded Revolver despite the lower RG. Now...it reacted much, much stronger than the Loaded Revolver....where I think Rob's technology argument has some 'legs'. So much so...I had to start using it AFTER the Lo. Revolver...when hopefully there was some carry-down and the lanes had broken down in a way where I was more inside.

I mention that...because it supports what I think you're trying to say...stronger does not always equal better. If I was outside or in the track...and the breakpoint was bone dry...the Jab was practically schizophrenic...one minute it stays in the oil and skids right...then it hits a board outside and goes through the head...or I get too much hand in it and it hooks Brooklyn. It was symmetric....but it wasn't as forgiving. Far stronger....if you measure strength in it's angular motion and ability to "flip"....but that wasn't always a good thing.

[Amyers]

I agree Amyers...

That Melee Jab RobM gave me...I loved that ball...but trying to fit it in my progression based on it's lower RG and newer technology turned out to be a mistake. That ball actually went longer than the Loaded Revolver despite the lower RG. Now...it reacted much, much stronger than the Loaded Revolver....where I think Rob's technology argument has some 'legs'. So much so...I had to start using it AFTER the Lo. Revolver...when hopefully there was some carry-down and the lanes had broken down in a way where I was more inside.

I mention that...because it supports what I think you're trying to say...stronger does not always equal better. If I was outside or in the track...and the breakpoint was bone dry...the Jab was practically schizophrenic...one minute it stays in the oil and skids right...then it hits a board outside and goes through the head...or I get too much hand in it and it hooks Brooklyn. It was symmetric....but it wasn't as forgiving. Far stronger....if you measure strength in it's angular motion and ability to "flip"....but that wasn't always a good thing.

If you've seen my posts about it before I haven't been a fan of the Jab. I know some people love it but for me it was crazy off the spot and wouldn't do crap in the oil. It's the one type of ball I don't feel Brunswick does well with is skid flip equipment.