The PAP change that is caused by the design dynamics, will be close whether you loft the ball or not as long as the loft is not excessive.
Also lofting or throwing the ball in the air doesn't cause "flare", the ball is designed to flare and when you release it you put the process in motion.
I think I see where this is going, your not going to have to start worrying about the ball flaring in the air and trying to control it.
As a caveat there are those that don't think a ball will flare in the air, because the air doesn't offer enough friction/resistance etc. to start the precession.
Last edited by bowl1820; 02-14-2014 at 08:24 PM.
Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798
"Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker
I was just thinking this could be a consistency type of thing - i.e. if you loft it 6" one time and 2' the next the flare would be different and affect consistency. I am going to start to pay more attention to this. I don't really loft the ball so it should be an issue.Originally Posted by bowl1820
Expanding on what bowl1820 is saying, it's important to understand what causes a ball to flare: axis migration. The way it works on modern bowling balls work is that when the ball is released by the bowler, it is spinning around his unique PAP (Positive Axis Point). Personally, I think the concept would be much easier to understand if the PAP was renamed Personal Axis Point, as it is truly unique to each bowler's release. Anyway, as soon as the ball is released, the axis begins to migrate toward the PSA (Preferred Spin Axis) which is the axis around which the core is designed to rotate. It is that axis migration that causes the ball to flare, based on the individual bowler's release. The inititial migration that begins before the ball actually touches the lane affects where the flare starts. This is the reason that a bowler's PAP may vary from one ball to another, and the true PAP should be determined using a spare ball that does not contain a core, so has no axis migration to distort the true location of the bowler's PAP.
The axis doesn't migrate towards the PSA.
It follows a path across the ball such that the RG of the initial pap is the same as all subsequent pap locations during the migration process.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/ind..._and_cores.pdf
Pap use a Spare ball??? WHAT? A little late!
Rob if your pap should be determined by using a spare ball, then I would guess all my bowling balls, are incorrect!
I honestly believe that all my ball layouts are based on ONE determination, where the driller used one of my first bowling balls, the, ( undefeated). He then laid the lucid out using info from that ball for all my other ones.
Does this mean that I am not getting all the goodie out of my balls, due to the fact they were all based off of that determination 3 years ago...
A spare,,,,, spare me,,, it was not used to determine my PAP!
Don't walk on Thin Ice!
If your pap was identified 3 years ago, and has been assumed to be the same ever since, then I'm 99.9% sure an incorrect location is being used for at least a few of your balls.
When you had your grip changed to tri-grip you will release those balls different than the one 3 years ago.
A quick way to tell if the PAP location being used for you is correct is to place a small piece of white tape on the ball at the point considered to be your PAP.
Having someone stand behind you and watch the ball closely at the moment you release the ball.
If the PAP location is correct, the piece of tape should be stationary, with the ball rotating around it.
The reason you want someone to watch, is most people can't really see the ball until it crosses their target (usually the arrows) and by then, the PAP has probably already migrated some amount.
It's not uncommon for the tape to wobble at first, then become stationary for a while down the lane, then wobble again.
This happens when the flare line used doesn't happen to be the initial flare line.
Earlier the flare line, the earlier it is absorbed into the ball.
The purpose for using a spare ball is since there usually isn't track flare, you naturally get the right flare line,
If however your finger pitches, or spans are different, then the results will likely be inaccurate.
Iceman: It's really not a matter of your PAP being "right" or "wrong." While it may very well have changed from three years ago, unless you have made very significant changes to your release, it's probably still fairly close. The important thing about your PAP is the fact that you are using one to have your balls drilled. The main idea of using the PAP to determine layouts is to get away from one bowler looking at another bowler's ball and thinking that positioning the pin and the cg the same will result in the same reaction for him. If a layout works for you, it really doesn't matter a whole lot if the angles are exactly as they are written.
Mike White: Once again your choice to argue a technicality does nothing other than to confuse the bowlers who are trying to learn something about bowling balls. Most bowlers don't know that axis migration is what causes flare. The exact direction of the axis migration is not important to them. How about if we start telling them that different angles to the VAL, or pin buffers if you prefer the Storm system, change the direction of the axis migration, and really confuse them? What is really important to you, helping the bowlers here who are asking for help, or constantly focusing on being right?
Last edited by RobLV1; 02-19-2014 at 07:24 AM.
Bowls simplified what causes a ball to flare?
At the start when you roll the ball down the lane, the balls core/weight block is in a unstable position.
As it rolls down the lane the core will try to get itself into a stable position , that stable position is called the Preferred Spin Axis (PSA).
So as the ball tries to find the PSA, the ball will roll on different parts of its surface.
The rings of oil you see on the balls surface are the evidence of this movement and is known as track flare.
Last edited by bowl1820; 02-19-2014 at 09:10 AM.
Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798
"Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker
Within a certain level of accuracy, I'll bet you can't tell by ball reaction if the PAP is off. I doubt if 1/4" is going to make much difference. My wild guess would be as that beyond 1/4" error the impact becomes more significant the larger the error.
Have you even noticed that the manufacturers recommended layouts are for high, medium, or low track? Probably because in most cases high, medium, or low is close enough.
I would still want my PAP to be correctly known though. If you have a choice between being right or wrong, why not be right? That being said, I wouldn't go redrilling every ball that I thought the PAP was located slightly off.
Ball speed: 17 - 18.5 mph Rev rate: 400ish
PAP 6 1/8" over 1/4" up
13° axis tilt / 30°-60° axis rotation
Thumbless bowler
High game: 300 High series: 804 High average: 217
One more thing: I talked to a guy who has been drilling balls for 30 years and is highly knowledgeable. I mentioned that on a couple of my balls the track just clips the edge of the thumb hole on the first few rotations. He said that doesn't matter at all. He said when laying out a ball he would never risk sacrificing reaction just to get the track to get off the thumb hole faster. He said it would be different if it was tracking all over the thumb hole, but it isn't. Of course I still have to be flare safe but that has to do with the finger holes, not the thumb.
Ball speed: 17 - 18.5 mph Rev rate: 400ish
PAP 6 1/8" over 1/4" up
13° axis tilt / 30°-60° axis rotation
Thumbless bowler
High game: 300 High series: 804 High average: 217
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