great read

[rv driver]

Because there's "pretend" and there's "for real". League conditions, league competition, the mental aspect...like I said before...I can bowl 9 game of open bowling in 2 hours before getting tired. But in league bowling, even with the rest between shots, I'm exhausted after 3-4 games.

I think we're confusing courtesy with respect. Like FTLOB, I love when people come up to me and ask me for help or questions about bowling. I'd even like to be a youth coach if I could. Thats "courtesy" and being a good ambassador of the sport. But in terms of "respect"...and maybe this differs from center to center...but I see league bowlers and I see everyone else.

You may be right -- it may be that we're conflating courtesy with respect. I'll have to consider that, do some observation and let you know what I think.

[Amyers]

You may be right -- it may be that we're conflating courtesy with respect. I'll have to consider that, do some observation and let you know what I think.

It's also possible there are some a**hats where you bowl. One of the alleys where we bowl on Sundays when my normal house is closed has this thirty year old kid. Who I admit is extremely talented but he's a total jerk. I've tried to talk with him a couple of times and he always blows me off. I'm pretty sure if I ran a pro-shop with a sign made from construction paper I'd have a better attitude. I'll try to take a picture next time I'm there and post it you guys would get a laugh out of it.

[rv driver]

It's also possible there are some a**hats where you bowl. One of the alleys where we bowl on Sundays when my normal house is closed has this thirty year old kid. Who I admit is extremely talented but he's a total jerk. I've tried to talk with him a couple of times and he always blows me off. I'm pretty sure if I ran a pro-shop with a sign made from construction paper I'd have a better attitude. I'll try to take a picture next time I'm there and post it you guys would get a laugh out of it.

I could be TOTALLY misreading people (I doubt it, since my profession deals with "reading people"), but it's really more subtle than that. There's this kind of"inner circle" of, admittedly, young pups who are groupies of the house pro -- pro-shop rats, dontcha know -- guys who the owner carts out to Vegas for the Tournament. And whenever I come into the pro shop to chat or for advice, these guys stand around rolling their eyes and sniggering behind my back. And the pro pays more attention to them than he does to me. None of them really say anything, but you can tell that there's just no respect there. I dunno -- maybe its a kid thing. Or maybe its just this one group. But it seems tied to the whole "You're not a 'real bowler' since you're not on a league" thing.

The point is, this thread isn't being hijacked for a therapy session. I can handle these pups; what I'm saying is that if this is a prevailing attitude nationwide, it's gonna put people off of the sport. It's not good ambassadorship.

[Amyers]

I get what your saying sounds not right but the only real way to earn your way in or show who's top dog is to beat them either in a league or tournament competition. I've seen this in some houses and even a little bit in my own but after bowling with and against them most of the accept me pretty well. There are always some jerks

[rv driver]

I get what your saying sounds not right but the only real way to earn your way in or show who's top dog is to beat them either in a league or tournament competition. I've seen this in some houses and even a little bit in my own but after bowling with and against them most of the accept me pretty well. There are always some jerks

We oughta make 'em bowl against Iceman -- the Equalizer. That'd fix their wagons!

[Aslan]

And whenever I come into the pro shop to chat or for advice, these guys stand around rolling their eyes and sniggering behind my back. And the pro pays more attention to them than he does to me...But it seems tied to the whole "You're not a 'real bowler' since you're not on a league" thing.

I get the same thing when I'm talking to musicians in a band and tell them I sing a mean karaoke. I mean, who the *** are YOU to judge!?

And why does Prince William get that really hot wife? I get why David Beckham gets to bang Posh Spice…because he's a pretty hot dude…I admit. But Prince William looks like a doofus…and he gets whatever her name is??? How come monarchys get hot wives like Princess Diana and stuff and they on't let me join their monarchy??

The World is dumb and unfair.

[rv driver]

I get the same thing when I'm talking to musicians in a band and tell them I sing a mean karaoke. I mean, who the *** are YOU to judge!?

And why does Prince William get that really hot wife? I get why David Beckham gets to bang Posh Spice…because he's a pretty hot dude…I admit. But Prince William looks like a doofus…and he gets whatever her name is??? How come monarchys get hot wives like Princess Diana and stuff and they on't let me join their monarchy??

The World is dumb and unfair.

Thank you for providing a prime example of the "snotty kid" attitude.

We're not talking about "dumb and unfair" or about "poor whine-bucket RV." We're talking about why bowling is going down the tubes. People notice that sort of thing and it turns them off.

Here's a case in point: about 20 years ago, I was playing in a band, and we were invited to open for Kansas. Those guys were really nice. We hung out backstage with them, their keyboard player drifted onstage during sound check and jammed on one of our originals. They treated us as equals, even though we weren't touring musicians. Later, we opened for Loverboy. They were snotty as hell, we outperformed them, and everybody noticed. Kansas has been back to town twice since then. Loverboy... has not.

I've been around professionals of several disciplines. Most of them are kind and respectful. There's no room for baseless snark.

[Aslan]

We're not talking about "dumb and unfair" or about "poor whine-bucket RV." We're talking about why bowling is going down the tubes. People notice that sort of thing and it turns them off.

You're talking about people that for whatever excuse won't join a league…getting turned off to bowling because of discrimination against them for not joining a league…and thus never joining a league. Yet said people….have no desire to join a league anyways…so it's net wash.

It's like me thinking people that sell Maseratis are snobby and didn't pay enough attention to me while I was walking around their showroom….therefore…I will NEVER buy a maserati!! Granted, I had no money and never will have enough to buy a maserati…but THATS NOT THE POINT!!

But it IS the point. You have CHOSEN not to join in leagues and take part in bowling as a casual/cosmic bowler. That is your choice. The consequence for that choice is you will be taken less seriously by more serious, league bowlers. You then say, "well, then I'm not gonna be a league bowler because they are snobs." But…you weren't going to be a league bowler anyways…so what has bowling lost??

Join a league…then, problem solved. You get better, you get respect, and then maybe you can lead the revolution of "less snobby league bowlers" into the 21st century.

[mc_runner]

It's not just a league, any league. If you're not in THEIR special league the proshop rats can still look down on you. I've been to an alley (where I've had a couple balls drilled, their guy is really good) with that kind of mentality. It's definitely an inner circle thing and if you're not in their club you can just tell they're thinking "who is this guy does he even know what he's doing does he even know the owner by name?!"

That's the kind of situation that should probably be avoided and I think what RV is saying. For me it was nothing outright but you kinda feel a little uncomfortable when there's like 5 people all laughing in the shop about *whatever* and you're in there trying to do legitimate business and maybe get some advice.

I'm not really sure there's much of a solution to it, when you bowl a lot and know people that's... kinda where you hang out with them. I'm not really sure its a lack of respect per se, its just kind of a clique-y thing. People know other people in leagues and that's where it starts.

[rv driver]

You're talking about people that for whatever excuse won't join a league…getting turned off to bowling because of discrimination against them for not joining a league…and thus never joining a league. Yet said people….have no desire to join a league anyways…so it's net wash.

It's like me thinking people that sell Maseratis are snobby and didn't pay enough attention to me while I was walking around their showroom….therefore…I will NEVER buy a maserati!! Granted, I had no money and never will have enough to buy a maserati…but THATS NOT THE POINT!!

But it IS the point. You have CHOSEN not to join in leagues and take part in bowling as a casual/cosmic bowler. That is your choice. The consequence for that choice is you will be taken less seriously by more serious, league bowlers. You then say, "well, then I'm not gonna be a league bowler because they are snobs." But…you weren't going to be a league bowler anyways…so what has bowling lost??

Join a league…then, problem solved. You get better, you get respect, and then maybe you can lead the revolution of "less snobby league bowlers" into the 21st century.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that some who don't want to be league bowlers, but who might just show up on a weekly basis and throw some games -- who might buy equipment and support the industry and watch the PBA -- might not do those things if they get turned off for simply not being in a league.

I think it's simply poor behavior. These guys would probably roll their eyes and snigger even if I was on a league. Because they're in the "inner circle," they're pups, and they think they know everything -- and they know that they're not so good that they can't be supplanted by someone better. I would expect much better behavior out of, say, Chris Barnes or Norm Duke. That's why I thanked you for pointing out the attitude. It's juvenile. If more people could meet professionals who treat them with respect, no matter their level of play, more people would be more likely to get into the sport, IMO.